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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Essay "The Often Maligned God of Arda: How Eru is the Ultimate Hero of Middle Earth" by Rangerfromthenorth
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Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 12:29am

Post #51 of 69 (168 views)
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True about Atlantis [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien was deliberately emulating the Atlantis story, and it had to be destroyed somehow, not peacefully evacuated and then gently sinking beneath the waves.

I think there are Atlantis versions where the timing was just bad and a volcano erupted (the true version of the Minoan civilization), and then the spinoff of that is that people were warned that a volcano would erupt, and they should evacuate, but they are too proud to listen (hello, Turgon?), and it's implied that they're punished for their pride and folly. Numenor certainly had plenty of warnings!




It was a very primeval tale to him, and he says in Letters that he knew it would somehow be worked in. I think Ardamire has the gist of it: that the classical tales (both Biblical and Atlantean), with their shattering impacts is the sense he was going for - especially in relation to Men's history, versus Elven history. Not that they don't have their own shattering events, but this one stands a bit alone.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





cats16
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 12:31am

Post #52 of 69 (156 views)
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Definitely... [In reply to] Can't Post

It lends to the sort of 'mystery' that we're given about Men, in general. Similar to how we have no specifics on what happened to Men before they crossed the Blue Mountains (though I think some guesses wouldn't be too far off).

Regardless of where one falls on this, I think it's great that Eru's complexities add to the overall depth of the Creation and of Arda.

(I maintain that Eru would've been much better playing The Sims--at least before trying it out for real.) Cool


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 12:32am

Post #53 of 69 (166 views)
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A side note... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Perhaps we can fit a discussion of the exchange of Andreth and Finrod between the 'books' of the upcoming LOTR discussion?




Hmm, we did want to do some items in between books, that might work out nicely Rem!

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Mikah
Lorien

Nov 14 2013, 12:50am

Post #54 of 69 (163 views)
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This reminds me... [In reply to] Can't Post





for that discussion/piece to appear...Smile

On the other point you raise Mikah, it ties nicely with JRRT's statement that he does not deal with Absolute Evil, doesn't it? If all things created contain the spark of divinity, then they contain Good - even Melkor and his intents. An optimism that denies despair. Cool

Of a quote by CS Lewis in Mere Christianity where he states: "but what is evil, but good corrupted."


Mikah
Lorien

Nov 14 2013, 12:52am

Post #55 of 69 (158 views)
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Ah yes.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Brethil, I do remember asking you in a PM about a discussion regarding Finrod and Andreth....I would love to see everyone's thoughts on it!Smile


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 1:24am

Post #56 of 69 (165 views)
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Absolutely Mikah - seems like the motion carries! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Brethil, I do remember asking you in a PM about a discussion regarding Finrod and Andreth....I would love to see everyone's thoughts on it!Smile




Will chat with CG and look at the LOTR schedule once it is closer and probably slot it in. Smile Nice!

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2013, 3:20am

Post #57 of 69 (141 views)
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I'd LOVE to lead it!!. If I may be so bold?(and life allows) [In reply to] Can't Post

Anything I forget would be brought up by the regulars here. We have such an intelligent and fun group!! So I don't fear mangling it too badly. Wink

Terazed, I expect to see you there!! Philosophy is right up your alley.

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!

(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Nov 14 2013, 3:21am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 3:52am

Post #58 of 69 (137 views)
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Sounds like a plan...we will chat once the date is set Rem! [In reply to] Can't Post

And I agree, always happy to see Terazed pop in!

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Ardamírë
Valinor


Nov 14 2013, 8:14am

Post #59 of 69 (153 views)
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That, I think, depends on how you view the Gift of Men [In reply to] Can't Post

Could it have been a good thing that Eru took them all from Middle-earth to spare them from delving ever further into the worship of Sauron/Morgoth? In "The Tale of Adanel", mortality is (unless I'm remembering completely incorrectly) given as a result of the original humans' worship of Morgoth and rejection of Eru. So he makes it so that they live mortal lives (implying originally immortal humans) in order that be incapable of serving Morgoth forever.

I'm not sure how coherent that was, and it was just a possibility that popped into my head. Personally, I was raised Protestant, and so I naturally apply the way I view God onto Eru. Others obviously do the same but with different results.

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Nov 14 2013, 1:50pm

Post #60 of 69 (134 views)
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Interestingly enough..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Echange of Andreth and Finrod, Andreth speculates on this, in a metaphysical discussion of the body, soul, and spirit, and the relation to the earth. She doesn't see why they should be weaker than the Elves and depart to uncertainty, but Finrod states that though Men are not bound to the world, they have hope beyond it. The Elves do not know what lies beyond, and do not know what will happen if Arda is no more at the Last Battle.

If I remember correctly, men were always mortal, but once they fell under the shadow, their years were shortened. Even the shortened years, though, gave the Numenorians thier incredible lifespan.

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!


sador
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 4:45pm

Post #61 of 69 (126 views)
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We've discussed it four years ago, [In reply to] Can't Post

but that was a different crowd from the present one in the RR - so it would be welcome to read new perspectives!


Just in case you (or anyonew else) are interested - here are links:
Athrabeth Finrod_Ah_Andreth
and
The tale_of_Adanel

Let's see if the present group can equal that discussion, or even surpass it!


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 14 2013, 8:48pm

Post #62 of 69 (112 views)
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Ah! Thanks so much Sador for the links! [In reply to] Can't Post

Going to have a look at these, and excited to move forward and re-explore it! Smile

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Nov 15 2013, 1:29am

Post #63 of 69 (101 views)
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Well said, Ardamire! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Could it have been a good thing that Eru took them all from Middle-earth to spare them from delving ever further into the worship of Sauron/Morgoth?

I was thinking along the same lines. And I'll add this thought: most of us see the deaths of innocents as evil because we see death as the end. But that is only true from within time; if we step outside of time and follow their ultimate fate beyond this world, then we can trust that Eru righted whatever wrongs were done to his children. I have faith that although injustice may flourish in this world, it is doomed in the next.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Mikah
Lorien

Nov 15 2013, 1:35am

Post #64 of 69 (99 views)
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Thank you... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am very interested to read it!


cats16
Valinor


Nov 15 2013, 1:44am

Post #65 of 69 (91 views)
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Neat thoughts, Meneldor. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although, as mortals, (at least for me) it's harder to consider the deaths of these innocents in a way that removes Eru from questionable choices. By acting within Arda, he 'stepped' into the bounds of Time, and destroyed Númenor. It somehow feels to me like authoritarianism--albeit coming from a deity.

As hands off as Eru is during the FA, by not helping Elves/Men in the long battle against Morgoth (until the WoW), it seems quite an impulsive decision to suddenly destroy an entire land mass (which was originally a gift from the Valar themselves) inhabited by the most faithful of all groups of Men (compared to Easterlings, etc.).


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 15 2013, 7:58pm

Post #66 of 69 (81 views)
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The fact that the Numenoreans *were* originally the most faithful is key. [In reply to] Can't Post

Those who have been given more are usually held more accountable. Eru in this case doesn't strike me as worse than the God of the Old Testament who allowed the Israelites to suffer invasion after invasion to try and teach them a lesson about not worshipping idols. For that matter, what about the God of the New Testament, who allowed the Diaspora and the fall of Jerusalem?

It's always those who should know better who get punished more severely in the Bible*, and Eru seems to treat his people on similar principles. The Numenoreans, thanks to their long contact with the Elves and their knowledge of the Valar, certainly knew better. Yet they took Sauron captive anyway. And then they listened to him!

(You would think they would have sent a messenger or something to Aman saying, "Hey, we have this escaped prisoner for you! Please come and pick him up before he does something incredibly evil and subvertive here," but apparently not.)

*I typed 'Bilbo' at first. Oh, goodness. Crazy

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


cats16
Valinor


Nov 15 2013, 8:55pm

Post #67 of 69 (77 views)
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Although... [In reply to] Can't Post

The way I read the part about Sauron's capture suggests that 1. he had planned that to happen, and prepared to live in Númenor, and 2. he went in with his grand plan to turn the Valar against Númenor (or perhaps, really, those should be switched around). So, to me, it was a lot of Sauron's doing, rather than the Numenoreans actively seeking evil, that led to their downfall.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting that part. But I think that's where some of my pity for them comes from--Sauron corrupted them. (Of course, there were probably some in Númenor who embraced Sauron. But did they all?)


You've got too much Bilbo in your head these days. Tongue


(This post was edited by cats16 on Nov 15 2013, 8:56pm)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 17 2013, 3:00am

Post #68 of 69 (72 views)
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Oh, yes, I agree, it was mostly Sauron's doing. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, you just have to wonder what on earth the Numenoreans were thinking of the whole situation. "Hey, this super-powerful angelic being just surrendered to us! Let's take him back to our island and have him tell us all sorts of technological stuff! What could possibly go wrong?"

Then again, the Numenoreans *were* quite proud of themselves and probably thought they had legitimately scared Sauron. (Is my memory playing tricks on me, or does it really say somewhere that Sauron was genuinely impressed by Ar-Pharazon's fleet and that all his orcs ran away in fear of them?) Sauron also was probably a great actor and led the Numenoreans to believe what they wanted to believe in this regard. Even so... Maia > Man. This could not end well for Numenor.



Why, yes, I do have too much Bilbo in my head these days. The bigger problem, however, is that I am not repentant about the fact. Wink

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


cats16
Valinor


Nov 17 2013, 5:50am

Post #69 of 69 (87 views)
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Agreed... [In reply to] Can't Post

Agreed on all points. I think pride had a lot to do with it. Possibly similar to how the Elves of Eregion were "entranced" by the powers of Sauron during the making of the Rings.

Yes, I believe there is a mention in there about Sauron being genuinely surprised by the grandeur of Ar-Pharazon's fleet.

Lol, no need to repent such a thing.

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