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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree
Nov 14 2013, 5:19am
Post #1 of 60
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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM Essay "The Physics of The Hobbit: Barrels out of Bond" by DwellerInDale
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Welcome to November 2013 TORn Amateur Symposium, the second TAS!
We are very pleased to present the next essay for TAS2:
"The Physics of The Hobbit: Barrels out of Bond"
Abstract:
This essay presents an analysis of one of the most iconic scenes in The Hobbit, the escape from the dungeons of the Woodland Realm. Bilbo Baggins, using his magic ring, is able to steal the keys to the dungeon cells and free the Dwarves. The company then escape by being packed into wooden wine casks and floating down the river toward Laketown.
In Tolkiens book, Bilbo packs each Dwarf into a wine barrel and seals the barrel with a lid. In The Desolation of Smaug, however, we know from previews that the barrels will be without lids, allowing us to see each of our characters as they negotiate the river and the rapids. This will undoubtedly produce a more visually exciting sequence than in the novel, but is it physically possible? Several members of TORn have criticized this scene on the basis of the physics. If the barrels have no lids, they argue, wont they fill with water, causing them to sink and thus possibly drowning most of our main characters?
In Part One and Part Two of The Physics of The Hobbit I explained the basic physics of free fall, with and without air resistance. In this essay I will explain the basic physics of floating in water, including what happens to hollow objects when they fill with water. The concepts will then be applied to Barrels Out Of Bond.
To view the essay, please click on the link above.
Our authors have written essays and analyses that are concerned, in some way, with the legendarium of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. These essays may be philosophic opinions, scientific theories, or analytical approaches to understanding or highlighting some facet of Tolkien's writings and world. These pieces are written with the goal of amateur scholarship at their core - thus inspiring our Symposium title. Authors may choose to include citations or footnotes, but they are by no means required. Keeping in mind the dual spirit of enjoyment and inquiry that we believe in (as much as we value cheer and song), and which is of paramount important to both the TAS team and our authors, we fully encourage discussion of the essays presented.We hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoy posting it. The TAS is open for discussion, and any comments, questions or thought you wish to share about this essay can be posted in this response to this thread.
We have quite a full schedule of essays - essays will posted approximately every other day. The full schedule can be found
here.
So please, go forth and enjoy all of the works we have posted for this 2013 November Session. The entire TAS Team, (Elaen32, DanielLB and Brethil), is both delighted and proud to present the essays our TAS members have crafted, relating their interests and skills to the world of JRRT that we all love; a world most intricately crafted, and one that "takes hold of us, and never let's go."
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 14 2013, 1:37pm
Post #2 of 60
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Well done Dweller in Dale, another excellent read!
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In The Hobbit, Bilbo (who as you r physics predicts, cannot manage to get stably ontop of the outside of an empty barrel) still spares a thought for his dwarves and whether he has got their barrel lids on tight enough. He's worried that, if the lids leak the barrels will sink, I suppose. But it seems like he needn't have worried on that account!
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 14 2013, 2:32pm
Post #4 of 60
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Good stuff DiD!! I can follow all your illustrations and totally get what you are saying. Way to make physics fun!!
Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Nov 14 2013, 2:43pm
Post #5 of 60
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Although I was a bit pressed for time with this one, it was great fun to do the analysis. I hear they may have the Dwarves go over a waterfall in DoS, so maybe there will need to be a sequel analyzing how possible that might be!
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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Lightfoot
Rivendell
Nov 14 2013, 4:08pm
Post #6 of 60
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Well Bilbo would not have had to worry
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about sinking barrels per say - but if they leaked to badly the he would have to worry about drowned dwarves stuck in floating barrels! Great piece Dweller in Dale! I enjoyed it all and would love to hear about the probability of surviving a waterfall while in open topped barrels.
Faithful servant yet master's bane,
Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Nov 14 2013, 4:24pm
Post #7 of 60
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Fascinating article, Dweller, and so meticulously written and diagrammed
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Could you briefly address what may happen given that, in SPJ's movie, Bilbo is hanging on to the side of Nori's barrel? Logic would seem to suggest his weight, especially as his clothes became soaked, might be enough to pull over the barrel. Or would Nori, leaning in the opposite direction, be enough to keep it upright? Or, if I understand what you've put forth in your article, would Bilbo's buoyancy in the river be enough to make no difference to the stability of Nori's barrel?
Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Nov 14 2013, 4:37pm
Post #8 of 60
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Thanks for the feedback! There are lots of variables here, so the outcome is difficult to predict. Bilbo could possibly capsize Nori's barrel if he isn't careful. It depends on how much water has accumulated in the barrel, how much Nori weighs and his position in the barrel, and how far over Bilbo pulls the barrel. Bilbo's own buoyancy, however, won't be much of a factor; it is a matter of the torque that Bilbo puts on the barrel and whether that is enough to tip the barrel past its critical angle. The best thing Bilbo could do would be to "hug" the barrel at or below the water line so as to minimize the distance between his center of gravity and the barrel's center. Nori could also, as you suggest, help by leaning, although there isn't a lot of room for him to do this.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 14 2013, 4:56pm
Post #9 of 60
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[Bilbo would not have to worry] about sinking barrels per say - but if they leaked to badly the he would have to worry about drowned dwarves stuck in floating barrels! Great piece Dweller in Dale! I enjoyed it all and would love to hear about the probability of surviving a waterfall while in open topped barrels. and now I'm stuck inside this quotes box... I think it's touch and go re drowning anyway: I believe DiD's analysis suggested "Depending on the exact shape of the barrel, from 10 to 15 cm should be above the water line..." So that portion of the barrel presumably wouldn't be constantly flooded. So the dwarf has to keep his nose and mouth in that air space. Which sounds do-able But it could be a difficult ride - Bilbo has packed them in with straw etc. to try and avoid bruising. But feasibly that means the dwarf can't turn around inside the barrel. And the barrels are meant to roll and pitch around a fair bit. If it rolls so that the dwarf is head down, he's going to have to hold his breath until the barrel rights itself. If the barrel is side on for a while, the dwarf might be head underwater - or get repeatedly underwater if the barrel is rolling in the water. If the barrel's stable attitude is such that the dwarf is head-down, he'll certainly drown. It's presumably nearly totally dark inside the barrel, so little chance of judging when the air pocket is coming your way to take a breath. I suppose the other issue is suffocation, if the air isn't exchanging enough with that outside. Oh, and any dwarves with motion sickness are going rapidly to add to their problems....  So traveling lids off and dwarf semi-popped out seems a much safer option - though in the book the dwarves have to be sealed up while the elves hauling the barrels drop them into the river without realizing that the prisoners are escaping! Amusingly, it may be that Tolkien was taking more liberties with physics than Peter Jackson & team are going to  You know what we need here to try this out - The Mythbusters 
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Nov 14 2013, 4:56pm
Post #10 of 60
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You have those people who went over Niagra. Possible? Maybe. Probable? No way!!
Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 14 2013, 5:00pm
Post #11 of 60
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And there are still more variables...
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...to Bilbo hanging onto Nori's barrel, when one considers that they appear to be in a strong current. Bilbo+ barrel is going to be much less streamlined than barrel only: if he's not too busy just hanging on, maybe Bilbo could vary the amount of drag on him quite a lot in an attempt to keep things steady.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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The Grey Elf
Grey Havens
Nov 14 2013, 5:10pm
Post #13 of 60
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if I understand what you're suggesting, Bilbo's affect on the barrel's stability might be one thing if they were floating in still water, and another if in the active water that we see as it introduces the torque factor?
Knowing SPJ's imagination and his love of set pieces, I suspect we will be seeing poor flailing Bilbo being forced to shift from one barrel to another as they make their way down the river and more than one kind of amazing stunt will be staged what with elves and orcs in hot pursuit of the escaping dwarves. This could provide you with a wealth of material for you to do a follow up to this article, LOL, should you be so inclined !  Dweller in Dale, Middlle-earth Mythbuster!
Welcome more children to Middle Earth. Support The S.H.I.R.E. Project!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Nov 14 2013, 5:17pm
Post #14 of 60
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Quite right- I'd forgotten that the dwarf starts dry in the barrel, and as long as the barrel is sealed (as per the book) it's only leakage which brings water in.
So the barrel rider should have a reasonable volume of air, and is left with some even in a terribly leaky barrel Violent agitation of the barrel might be a problem though- trying to breath in air , getting a lot of water mixed in with it, and choking.
Lids off, you'd expect more water to slop in, but the passenger can stick his head out (arrows permitting
)
No wonder they were grumpy when they got out!
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Werde Spinner
Rohan
Nov 14 2013, 5:47pm
Post #15 of 60
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I could follow the math perfectly and the diagrams really helped. It's truly amazing to see two of my favorite fields of geekery, mathematics and Tolkien, combined in such a satisfactory way. Great job, DiD!!
I may or may not now be contemplating suggesting a viewing of DoS as extra credit for my physics class... 
"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"
"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."
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Brethil
Half-elven
Nov 14 2013, 7:22pm
Post #16 of 60
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A feast for the senses Dweller!
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Another great read!
And the timing here is so perfect, I'm glad we have this to enjoy before seeing the film version, where we can go in with the ideas. Now I know I am going to spend a lot of time watching what Bilbo and Nori do with that shared barrel - wonder if there will be any close calls in tipping. And the idea of falls and other complications - I now hope there are, because then we have more factors to look forward to analyzing!
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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elaen32
Gondor
Nov 14 2013, 9:16pm
Post #17 of 60
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I really enjoyed your analysis, DiD! Looking forward to the waterfall analysis- those poor dwarfs!! Maybe we also need some analyses on those Matrixwood Elves and their movements!! That said, the aerodynamics of Smaug and dragons in general might be a good one too? Are you ready??
One point- I would assume that the wood could absorb some water (especially if the barrels have not been varnished and caulked properly) and that would affect the overall mass? How significant could that be?
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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elaen32
Gondor
Nov 14 2013, 9:20pm
Post #18 of 60
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I think I'm going to be watching the barrels scene in a different light, even taking into account Thorin's majestic, if soggy, piloting of his craft!! But seriously, I think it may help to know that these things are feasible. I switched off for a while during the goblin's sequence in AUJ, until I read DiD's analysis and I could appreciate the action a bit more!
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Nov 14 2013, 10:26pm
Post #21 of 60
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Another great essay, thank you DwellerInDale.
I wonder what else the Dwarves could have done to ensure the barrels didn't tilt. Oil has a density less than water ... they should have oiled themselves up. 
Without pulling out the book, do we know what trees grew in Mirkwood (or possibly around Laketown and Thranduil's Halls). Oak seems like a good approximation, but wooden Lignum Vitae barrels might have made it more difficult.
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elaen32
Gondor
Nov 14 2013, 10:31pm
Post #22 of 60
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I must be losing the plot, but...
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the line "Bring wood and oil" just went through my mind on reading your post Daniel Now THAT would be an interesting feasibility study
Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Nov 14 2013, 10:51pm
Post #23 of 60
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Yes, I guess they didn't teach integral calculus in the Shire in those days! I wonder what J.R.R. Tolkien's understanding of the physics was? Tolkien knew a bit about everything (and anything!). And that includes the practical and theoretical sciences. Just reading the books gives that away - botany, meteorology (and climatology), astronomy, translation, theology, philosphy, biology ... the list really is endless. He might not have been able to work out a Balrog's free fall, but he certainly understood the basic concepts of it. I don't doubt that. I use this quote a lot in my essay: Despite being a faery-story, miles are miles, days are days, and weather is weather. Letter 210 And it's probably applicable here, as well.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Nov 14 2013, 11:12pm
Post #24 of 60
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Yes, I guess they didn't teach integral calculus in the Shire in those days! I wonder what J.R.R. Tolkien's understanding of the physics was?
In officer training he doubtess received some instruction in ballistics. Probably more later since as battalion signaling officer he'd often be working closely with the Forward Observation Officer and his signallers in forward observation posts.
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Indeed if fish had fish-lore and Wise-fish it is probable that the business of anglers would be very little hindered.
-JRR Tolkien
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I agree! I want to see all of this too...
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