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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Cliffhanger Ending for DOS?
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m.summers343
Bree

Nov 5 2013, 11:14pm

Post #1 of 26 (922 views)
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Cliffhanger Ending for DOS? Can't Post

What is it with the consensus on this board that DOS will end in a cliffhanger and there will be no climax. Each Lord of the Rings/Hobbit film ends in a climax. Why would this one be any different. If you remember, they cut Saruman out of the Theatrical Release of the Return of the King because they thought it was unnecessary and they already wrapped his story up in the Two Towers. Why would they make the same mistake here with Smaug? It's unlike Peter Jackson to keep everything on a cliff hanger... he always resolves one side of the story. In Fellowship, he ends with a battle and the death of Boromir and the breaking of the Fellowship. Sure Sam and Frodo's story is left on a cliffhanger but their story is not ended until ROTK. In Two Towers, the film ends with the Battle of Helm's Deep and the destruction of Isengard... again Sam and Frodo's journey left on a cliff hanger... and in ROTK everything is resolved.

In An Unexpected Journery, the film ends with the battle with Azog in the pine trees. They went out of their way to create this event so the film would specifically have a climax. Why would they then leave DOS with no climax when they have one of two obvious choices to end the second film? Why would they end it on two cliffhangers? It's either going to end with the death of Smaug and the destruction of Laketown or with the saving of Gandalf and the Battle of Dol Guldur.


OrphanOfNumenor
Bree


Nov 5 2013, 11:31pm

Post #2 of 26 (525 views)
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Song Titles and Trailer [In reply to] Can't Post

People seem to think that because of the titles of the soundtrack don't mention a specific battle with Smaug that it won't happen. Also the trailer doesn't show any footage of Smaug fighting with Laketown. I think that PJ and Co are keeping the ending as secret as possible. For two reasons: one, to give us some surprise. We haven't heard/seen the Necromancer in the trailers but we know it's happening. I think the same thing is going on with Smaug's demise.
Reason two: They haven't finished the VFX work on the dragon sequences. PJ mentioned, in the latest Vlog IIRC, that he hadn't shown things off because stuff wasn't finished. He knows there was some negative reaction to poor CGI in AUJ, and unfinished work in the first two DOS trailers. This time he is playing it closer to the chest while his team frantically works to complete the CGI-fest that the Smaug battle will require.
This is all speculation of course, until we get more info/see the film :)

"The Men of the Sea send before them a great cloud, as a rain turned to serpents, or a black hail tipped with steel."

(This post was edited by OrphanOfNumenor on Nov 5 2013, 11:32pm)


nobofthepony
Lorien


Nov 5 2013, 11:48pm

Post #3 of 26 (460 views)
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It won't happen [In reply to] Can't Post

The last song is "I See Fire" not "I See Steam"

;) I don't see Smaug dying in this one, for a multitude of reasons. Prepare yourself for Smaug to be alive and well in 2014


Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 5 2013, 11:49pm

Post #4 of 26 (455 views)
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Personally, I don't think so [In reply to] Can't Post

That wouldn't be very PJ and I hope there is not a cliffhanger ending. (Having to wait another whole year for film three is cliffhanger enough for me, thank you.) Unimpressed


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Nov 6 2013, 12:25am

Post #5 of 26 (412 views)
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Up For Grabs [In reply to] Can't Post

I share an office with a scriptwriter. I asked him today if he thought Smaug would die at the end of DOS. He said that PJ and CO are very unpredictable and don't do things the way other screenwriters do. SO he was unwilling to make a guess. I am too. I think the movie will end in an entirely unexpected way.


Moahunter
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 1:39am

Post #6 of 26 (372 views)
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"Also the trailer doesn't show any footage of Smaug fighting with Laketown.". [In reply to] Can't Post

39 secs. into the trailer there is a long shot through Lake-town with fire at the end of a waterway/canal.
Is that indicative of what will be in DoS or a hint of what is to come re. Bard's accompanying declamation?


Cillendor
Lorien

Nov 6 2013, 1:51am

Post #7 of 26 (369 views)
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Maybe Sheeran was told not to mention Smaug's death, [In reply to] Can't Post

but look at this verse in his song.

And if the night is burning
I will cover my eyes
For if the dark returns then
My brothers will die
And as the sky's falling down
It crashed into this lonely town
And with that shadow upon the ground
I hear my people screaming out


This sounds to me like a dragon attack. At the very least, Smaug will attack Laketown in DOS. It would be very unlike Peter Jackson to have Smaug attack and then not resolve the story. Saving the death of Smaug for the beginning of TABA would totally ruin the significance of it. It's too important to be the opening scene. It must be a climax.


StarGodziller
Bree


Nov 6 2013, 2:05am

Post #8 of 26 (356 views)
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I agree that... [In reply to] Can't Post

The track listing really tells us nothing about where the film will end. We won't really know until the reviews hit in early December.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2013, 2:18am

Post #9 of 26 (347 views)
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Also [In reply to] Can't Post

 
At the very end of the song he says

"Oh you know I saw a city burn"
"Feel the heat upon my skin"

I doubt we will see Smaug attack Laketown without seeing his demise. It wouldn't make sense.

Sheeran sang the lyrics right after having seen the film. I'm pretty sure Smaug meets his demise at the end.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


StarGodziller
Bree


Nov 6 2013, 2:19am

Post #10 of 26 (337 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

The lyrics sound like we'll be seeing the destruction of Laketown.


Taladamir
The Shire

Nov 6 2013, 2:36am

Post #11 of 26 (347 views)
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no cliffhanger... [In reply to] Can't Post

..IMOCool Smaug will be good and deadEvil TTT really had an epic ending, I hope PJ and CO give us something as good at the end of DOS. FOTR was really good too, AUJ decent but not in the same class IMO. I'm really wanting DOS to make up for it.


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 6 2013, 3:11am

Post #12 of 26 (321 views)
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That looks like sunrise... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and the people seem to be going about their daily duties.

If the light was unnatural, the people would at least be looking in its direction with some degree of surprise.

The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.

(This post was edited by Earl on Nov 6 2013, 3:11am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 6 2013, 4:31am

Post #13 of 26 (298 views)
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I just really, really hope not. Especially concerning Gandalf if there is (uch!) a capture. [In reply to] Can't Post

None of the other films they have done, save the cannon based fall of Gandalf half way through Fellowship, has dealt in cliffhanger endings. Unresolved plots, yes, but no actual, bite your nails till next year wondering how your friend escaped, whether this or that person lived, where the hammer is going to fall that you already saw swinging, endings, and I hope they don't make this the first. Peter always, whatever his flaws, stressed the importance of making each film feel like a complete movie in its own right, and he has delivered on that in every movie, as well as one could reasonably expect. I hope he won't turn back on that here.

In Reply To
I share an office with a scriptwriter. I asked him today if he thought Smaug would die at the end of DOS. He said that PJ and CO are very unpredictable and don't do things the way other screenwriters do. SO he was unwilling to make a guess. I am too. I think the movie will end in an entirely unexpected way.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Ffnir
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 6:03am

Post #14 of 26 (262 views)
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Thorin saw Dale and Erebor burn prior to this [In reply to] Can't Post

maybe that's what the song refers to


Foromir
Rivendell


Nov 6 2013, 12:37pm

Post #15 of 26 (185 views)
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The bitter consequences of the three-film-split! [In reply to] Can't Post

We wouldn't have any of these structural problems with two films and that's the main reason why i still have troubles with that decision from last year.

I agree that a cliffhanger is not typical for PJ and would feel quite strange at first in his Middle Earth films.

But I think it would be even worse to try to squeeze the complete Smaug story into this already overcrowded film (with the shortest running time of all ME films so far!). So the compromise I think is the added action climax (Dwarves vs. Smaug) and, yes, a cliffhanger. I'm sure PJ will make some effort to put his own spin on it and make the ending as significant and satisfying as can be.


dave_lf
Gondor

Nov 6 2013, 1:24pm

Post #16 of 26 (180 views)
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He's right about the unconventional writing [In reply to] Can't Post

but I'd still guess he'll die in this one. The attack on Laketown would make a very poor opener, so if it doesn't happen at the end of #2, they'll have to make major changes to the storyline to fit it in elsewhere, I'd say. And I think there'd have been clues by now if something like that were happening.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Nov 6 2013, 3:13pm

Post #17 of 26 (150 views)
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Certainly possible [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep it's certainly possible. Hard to say as they split it into 3 films but I am glad they pushed TABA back to December to give them all the editing time they need. And PJ owns December. It should be fabulous.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13


nobofthepony
Lorien


Nov 6 2013, 4:03pm

Post #18 of 26 (138 views)
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probably a reference to Dale...this is from a dwarvish point of view...Laketown isn their "people crying out" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


nhui06
Rivendell

Nov 6 2013, 5:12pm

Post #19 of 26 (124 views)
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Song was suppose to be written from the perspective of the audience [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot where I read this, but Ed Sheeran was shown the movie first, then had to write the song right after from his reflections. It could have been that Ed took the role of both a Dwarf and a bystander (like the audience) into consideration. I myself heard the lyrics from the perspective of an outsider, like someone from Laketown watching the from a distance.


m.summers343
Bree

Nov 6 2013, 6:58pm

Post #20 of 26 (104 views)
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Short runtime [In reply to] Can't Post

The runtime has not exactly been confirmed. Someone in the new Vlog mentions that they'll be working on the film until mid-November. So I'm sure no one knows the exact final runtime, although I'm sure PJ has a runtime he's shooting for. I SERIOUSLY doubt any movie theaters know the runtime however.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 6 2013, 7:11pm

Post #21 of 26 (99 views)
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Indeed. My bigger problem though, as stated, would be more regarding Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug still alive and having left the mountain to wreak havoc is in a way a cliffhanger, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time a dangerous villain was left to cause crises in another film. Even ressurected Azog (horribly) survives into a second act.


None of the films, outside of the single cannon based fall in Khazad-Dum and capture of Merry and Pippin, has ended with a major character still in immediate peril, trapped, gravely injured or fate unknown in an outside the story, manufactured way. To have it be Gandalf, of all people, would be an abhorrent travesty. My big thing here is that he at least, whether like Aragorn after the inserted cliff scene, Frodo after his Morgul stabbing, himself after Orthanc, etc., gets out before the film ends and gets on his way to alert the Council.

In Reply To
We wouldn't have any of these structural problems with two films and that's the main reason why i still have troubles with that decision from last year.

I agree that a cliffhanger is not typical for PJ and would feel quite strange at first in his Middle Earth films.

But I think it would be even worse to try to squeeze the complete Smaug story into this already overcrowded film (with the shortest running time of all ME films so far!). So the compromise I think is the added action climax (Dwarves vs. Smaug) and, yes, a cliffhanger. I'm sure PJ will make some effort to put his own spin on it and make the ending as significant and satisfying as can be.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Foromir
Rivendell


Nov 6 2013, 9:16pm

Post #22 of 26 (89 views)
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About Gandalf in peril [In reply to] Can't Post

I sure hope they won't let him hang there in the Necromancer's dungeon between DOS and TABA and agree that would feel cheap and inappropriate for the character. But again, I still trust PJ enough to avoid that situation, like letting Gandalf escape in the last minute to end on a more hopeful note.


Olorin2607
Lorien

Nov 6 2013, 9:35pm

Post #23 of 26 (73 views)
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Hm. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't really know what is so bad having Gandalfs story ending on cliffhanger as well. It makes it far more surprising and badass when he escapes from Saurons grasp in TABA.
I generally don't get why people hate cliffhangers.. I love them.Laugh

Though I also would like it to be the Necromancer himself to capture our wise Maia.


Bumpypotato
Bree

Nov 7 2013, 5:07am

Post #24 of 26 (56 views)
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I'm all for a cliffhanger ending, [In reply to] Can't Post

but not killing Smaug in this one would be ridiculous.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Nov 7 2013, 6:40am

Post #25 of 26 (49 views)
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I sincerely hope that... [In reply to] Can't Post

we do see Smaug's demise in this one. I just think it makes much more sense, and then if there is a cliffhanger (or rather something to whet our appetites until TABA) it could end at some point before the BO5A begins. BO5A can then be saved for TABA as well as whatever they are doing to link the movie with LOTR, etc.

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