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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 5:02am
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Will Goblins be enough for Battle of Five Armies ?
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The Good Guys are in Good Shape
as far as raw material for an interesting battle goes. Its the largest variety yet we have seen: Dwarves, Elves, Men, Eagles, Beorn, Thorin & Co, Gandalf and even Bilbo. (Possible addition: Beorn brings Beornings)
The Bad Guys (Now Hiring)
They have Wargs/Wolves, Goblins, and Bolg with his Bodyguard of larger Goblins. They can be made into distinqtly new types of Goblins & Wargs, being northern breeds, but are still Wargs and Goblins. I would think they have to avoid repeating the look and feel of the previous big battles. It will have to have some originallity, some spectacle, surprizes and suspense. It doesn't have to be huge, just exciting.
Possible additions
Crows. There are swarms of these in the area. But when I think of elves whacking and feathers flying I think this could end up more like Monty Python absurdity then Hitchcocks suspense.
Dragons. If you get the feeling that Smaug was practically invincable, earlier in the film, several of these showing up unexpectedly would give that feeling the good guys are in trouble now. Not necessarily winged either like Smaug, but earlier Great Worm models. They once abode not too far north of this area. A chance for the Dwarves with Fire-Resistant War masks to show there quality. Dwarves on foot fought Glaurung to a stalemate once.
Unexpected or secret presence of Sauron. He was just evicted from Dol Guldor, but concievably fled in this direction. Maybe with some Merrymen of Mirkwood Forest.
Hobgoblins. Gandalf mentions these north of Mirkwood I believe. Never really defined that I remember.
I think the dragon brood is likeliest addition, at least today 
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Jan 11 2008, 5:13am
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Aren't there bats?
*goes to check*
Yes there are: "Behold! the bats are above his army like a sea of locusts!"
While it's true that the bats probably won't have much personality, they'll scare the you-know-what out of me, and it will be different.
Where's Frodo?
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SandWitch King
Rohan
Jan 11 2008, 8:48am
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NOT more dragons. Some of what made Smaug so cool was his uniqueness. The other dragons will transport us suddenly to that absurd D&D movie with Thora Birch or the "Dragon Wars" traier I keep seeing on TV. (Never watched the film).
Anyway, I don't mind at all your idea of beefing up the bad guys, just not with dragons I hope.
But how about spiders?
I wish my name was "Barrow Wong". Maybe I should change it. And now for my quote:
"Please note, we have added a consequence for failure. Any contact with the chamber floor will result in an unsatisfactory mark on your official testing record, followed by death. Good luck."
(This post was edited by SandWitch King on Jan 11 2008, 8:51am)
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Earl
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Jan 11 2008, 11:34am
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Don't think anything needs to be beefed up at all.
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At least as far as "additions" are concerned. Adaptations maybe, but not additions. This is after all the battle of 5 armies. Anything more, anything less, and it's not the battle of 5 armies anymore.
Of course, after watching ROTK's battles, you wonder how they're going to pull it off. Not in spectacle, I'm not worried about that. After all, we haven't really seen an army of Wargs (and who says they're supposed to look exactly like the ones we see in TTT?), we haven't seen an army of Elves (we saw them at the Last Alliance for a few mins. and Helm's Deep doesn't count as an army, as much as, or as less as, a deployment), we haven't seen an army of Dwarves (not at all, and definitely not fully armed and filthy) and as far as Orcs/Goblins go, we haven't seen all the breeds PJ/WETA can come up with  . Add to this mix a cloud of Bats, Eagles to the rescue, and Beorn joining in the fray. A pretty unique battle if you ask me.
Though what I am worried about is how PJ will depict the motivations behind this battle. In the book, the moment Dain charges, the situation changes; they realize the goblins are marching down to war, and Gandalf shouts out (or something) and quickly counsels Elves, Men and Dwarves to form an alliance. And the book's next line is something to the effect that "this is how the battle of 5 armies falls out". Adapting this to a movie might be more of a challenge than adapting the actual battle, since as far as PJ is concerned, he (rightfully) likes showing what's at stake, and this has been the strengths of the battle sequences he's depicted in LOTR.
But how do you show Gandalf suddenly holding a "counsel" on a battlefield and shouting out "good advice" to 3 armies, quickly having them form an alliance? In this aspect at least, I'd say it's the bad guys who are in good shape, and the good guys who are in deep soup.
pssst.... all this, though I have no doubt PJ will do a good job 
(This post was edited by Earl on Jan 11 2008, 11:42am)
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 1:04pm
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I forgot that bats! That brought to mind how Luthien takes the form of a large man-sized one in The Silmarilian.
A new development in that direction could be pretty substantial. Even up to...dare I say it ? A nearly new race. Heresy!
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 1:41pm
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surprizingly, is not on the list of phobias. I really expected to find it, especially since it contains so many other things, like Genuphobia: fear of knees. 
But SWK, I must admit I have it as well. Bad dragons would be worse then none. Isn't it ironic though, how the stories that practically re-invented dragon use in modern times, now almost can't use them for fear of being repetative and routine ?
(This post was edited by orcbane on Jan 11 2008, 1:42pm)
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fmaximus
Rivendell
Jan 11 2008, 2:17pm
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the battles in LOTR so good was that the good guys were hopelessly outnumbered each time.
To get the same feeling they will definately have to beef up the bad guys. One way they could do that without straying too much from the book would be (as already mentioned) to make the goblins/wargs/wolves more menacing than in LOTR.
Also to make the sheer number of them so great that it would look like all hope of winning the battle is gone.
I'd love to see a battle which includes the likes of Dragons and Balrogs. We'll just have to wait until they make the Silmarillion. 
(This post was edited by fmaximus on Jan 11 2008, 2:25pm)
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fmaximus
Rivendell
Jan 11 2008, 2:23pm
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Were Trolls ivolved in the BO5A ? (pardon my ignorance) 
They could always throw in a bunch of Trolls as well. Perhaps different kind of Trolls than in the LOTR movies.
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Earl
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Jan 11 2008, 2:41pm
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They shouldn't beef up the battle so much that the LOTR battles pale in comparison. We need to remember that this orc army is simply one led by Bolg, and not masterminded by Sauron. I'd like to see it as more of a reckless assault than a strategic war.
That said, I do wish PJ goes and films some uber-extended battle sequence taking place in Erebor and Dale, and Lothlorien, during the War of the Ring. I'm sure a lot of the Trolls of the "cunning type, who were no longer dimwitted" could be made use of here. It'd be great to see Haldir and company lead their last remaining army in the assaults against Dol Guldur, and King Brand and King Dain (who we will know from The Hobbit "prequel") fighting, and dying together - very emotional. I wanna see the Easterlings in their magnificent armour marching to war Expanding the scope of the War of the Ring would give PJ liberties to expand the scope of the Battle of Five Armies as well. I think I'm going crazy thinking of the possibilities now
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 2:54pm
Post #11 of 34
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Bolg's Bodyguard are 'Goblins of huge size'
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There are no Trolls mentioned specifically at BO5A, but the bodyguard is described as particularly large & fierce. Something else we haven't seen yet are the half-trolls Tolkien wrote about in Lotr. Unfortunately, we may not get to, since they only are mentioned at the Battles at Pelennor Fields and before the Black Gate, I believe.
Its possible Bolg's bodyguard might be portrayed half-trollish (or as the mysterious Hobgoblins).
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burrahobbit
Rohan
Jan 11 2008, 2:58pm
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Hiring the bad guys, or firing the good guys?
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As well as beefing up the orcs, the battle armies could also become more evenly matched if the allies are cut down, as this may well happen if The Hobbit is going to be simplified into one film.
I fear Beorn, as much as I like him, may well get the chop as he doesn't affect the main characters' story (Bilbo and Thorin) in any major way. Also because the eagles rescued the good guys in LotRs, I'm sure the scriptwriters will be tempted to get rid of them to avoid them becoming too predictable a story device, a deus ex machina. So without Beorn and the eagles things could get a bit more even.
I like fmaximus's trolls idea, that could definitely work. And some new exciting wolf-like wargs.
Tolkien's battles pretty much all go along the lines of- good guys outnumbered, looks like defeat is coming, but they don't despair and Gandalf/Aragorn/eagles arrive. So the saviour in this battle has to be Thorin I think. It's perfect for his character arc- he's become selfish with his horde, and thrown Bilbo out, then he and his dwarves return decked out in shiny new weapons and armour and kill Bolg.
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Elven
Valinor
Jan 11 2008, 3:10pm
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The Build-up to the Battle of the 5 Armies ...
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I think will hold much of the tension.
As Peter I think mentioned, the build-up in Zulu, was the Battle scene builder of all time - and as someone mentioned, being so outnumbered with the odds against the good guys.
Im hoping for a few cheering moments when the Eagles and Beorn arrive ... though there seems as if there could be a sequence of hope/loss/hope/loss/hope going on through-out this battle as well.
This is another occassion where scenes need to be so compellingly different from LOTR - the bats arriving in a swarm I dont think should look like the arrival of the crows in LOTR, same as the Beorns arrival and fighting aggression shouldnt vaguely resenble the Cave Troll or even Saruman in battle, nor the Eagles be similar in their arrival or fighting skills ... Im really looking forward to seeing the way PJ develop and create this Battle.
I think 5 armies having a blue, is enough in one battle scene. It also depends where the battle is placed in the film I suppose, as to how effective it is.
... and Bilbo isn't even awake through this Battle... if the story is a narration of happenings from Bilbo - this might be a point to bring in another narrator in, or at least not be interupted by Bilbos point of view and story telling ... it could just let fly, and the audience are in the battle as much as possible - I'll be ducking and weaving axe blows and arrows ...
The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn
Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"
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Elven
Valinor
Jan 11 2008, 3:20pm
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on this occassion as to the role of Beorn, as he has a before, during and after involvement through-out the Hobbit, and is intrumental and effective in each - he has a position of moving the story along, so to speak ... to aid, to help, to be involved ... he see's the company, and possibly has more of an inkling as to whats going on than sometimes the Hobbits have. And he's a trusted ally of Gandalfs ... I think he has enough 'story/plot line' significance to be included.
Just some thoughts 
The Shire was never the same after
Barbra Cartland moved into Bagshot Row.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!
The Hobbit!!
Its a Happening Thing!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn
Sauruman: "Do know how the fan girls/boys first came into being? ... they were Tolkien scholars once ... Taken by the Dark Director, tempted to hold moots & dress up like Hobbits, Elves, Dwarves and Wizards ... A ruined & terrible form of life, not to mentions bad grades ... and now perfected at TORN ...
Whom do you serve!"
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burrahobbit
Rohan
Jan 11 2008, 3:34pm
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... and I'd love to see him on film as I'm sure everyone would!
It's just a question of time I'm thinking of. Will they have enough time for cramming in all the events from the hobbit in one film? Maybe not, and if not they've got to keep the characters that contribute to the core of the story, Bilbo, Thorin and the Quest for Erebor.
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Hengist
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Jan 11 2008, 3:54pm
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proper wargs and not wierd mutant hyeanas - (yes that is a personal dislike of mine)
I would say the men of Dale/laketown might play a more important part in the whole film and in the battle - probably so they can bring a female lead in.
I May be a scientist but I'm also a Ninja fencer!
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 6:46pm
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I really hope not. Be a shame really, to lose both these unique characters.
But I see your points burrahobbit. Dogs on their hind legs carrying plates...Brrrr...it freezes the blood.
Its quite a dilema really. There's some great storytelling in the Beorn parts and potential comic relief. Perhaps he can be given a make-over, and as Elven mentioned, he has some extremely key roles. He basically saves the expedition, and later the Battle. But I think that a very good point about Thorin. In Fotr they talked about earning a death scene.
I don't know if any other Beornings are shape changers, but I sometimes think of them accompanying Beorn to the battle. Something you hear before you see it. A rumbling line of Great bears with a hazy cloud above them. That would be the bees! NO! I guess not...
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 11 2008, 7:33pm
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I guess it is not so much how many different things, as what there is is different. I think you touched on this, and the composition of the 2nd film affecting the first. You'd think they would steer clear of any fantasy film, for fear or comparison or repetition. Too many animals might bring to mind Narnia for example.
I hadn't considered the battlefield conference yet. Gandalf blows a whistle and theres a flag down on the field, etc. It might not actually be necessary. When the goblin army becomes visable, I think the dwarves, elves & men would all know what to do without any need of command. There might be a lot of confusion and chaos trying to reform the battle lines, but no confusion on which way to face.
2nd film possibilities, of the kind you mention are kind of mind boggling to me right now too, but fun.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 11 2008, 7:47pm
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"confusion on which way to face"
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It's tricky, because the elves, men and dwarves have just begun to fight in a valley on the south side of the mountain, when a storm drives in from the west, and a darker shadow is seen to the north. The goblin-army approaches from the north, but first attacks from the south, having passed east of the mountain.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Jan 11 2008, 7:52pm
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I would like to see movie adapters trust the material in the book. Is it really such a risk to use most of the material in a book loved by millions of people? With such a small book, the excuses in regards to time constraints will diminish considerably, and things will focus in as matters of personal taste regarding what is movie-ish and what is not. Again, I vote trust the source material.
Great, where are we going?
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 11 2008, 7:52pm
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He finally does the right thing, but too late, and dies in the attempt (with Beorn's intervention allowing him the chance of some last words to Bilbo). I think it's important for him not to succeed.
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Jericho
Registered User
Jan 11 2008, 10:02pm
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I always thought the guy in RotK, who stops the detachment that picks up "uruks" Frodo and Sam inside Mordor--y'know, the bald guy with one crazy eye--I always thought he was one of the otherwise-unseen half-trolls. Let's see an army of them (maybe with two crazy eyes each) somewhere. Yikes!
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carrioncrow
Lorien
Jan 11 2008, 10:15pm
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agreed. I think there is already a heck of alot there on the page to play with.
I image a tracking shot from the eagle's point of view..diving from open air and wide open vistas and blue sky down through a black cloud of bats and crows and into a insane jumble of a shadowy battlefield with a giant bear, etc. It is THE scene i am most excited to see. (Bilbo's dialogue with Smaug is maybe #2)
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orcbane
Gondor
Jan 12 2008, 1:02am
Post #24 of 34
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And spin her around ?
But no, even if all else is game, so far at least, PJ does the geography by the book.
Perhaps they could see the Cloud-Bats, or hear drums. Legolas's cameo could be 'Those are no Dwarf horns!"
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jan 12 2008, 6:24am
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Jackson and co. made Middle-earth smaller, and made it look like New Zealand. (All those mountains.)
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