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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
i see fire on the radio already!!
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boldog
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 9:56am

Post #1 of 26 (735 views)
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i see fire on the radio already!! Can't Post

Just listensing to 104.1 today fm. It's a Sydney Australia radio station, and they played I see fire! No lie at all this is all true! I can see this song becoming quite popular. Very good promotion for the movie anyway...

"And do you really think, Thorin Oakenshield, that Bolg will have the slightest symphony for you? After he watched you hack his fathers hand off, so ruthlessly in Moria. Azogs defeat has brought nothing to you, only refuelled hate of his kin, upon yours"


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 9:59am

Post #2 of 26 (418 views)
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I is already playing in German radio as well [In reply to] Can't Post

Which really surprised me. We are bot always the quickest ;) And they even mentioned that it belongs to the movie and mentioned their anticipation and release date.

Even though it may be hard for some to adjust to the song, personally I love it, might have to agree that this is better in terms of marketing than some additional banners ;)


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2013, 3:57pm

Post #3 of 26 (303 views)
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Out of curiosity, I looked up the details on Skyfall for comparison [In reply to] Can't Post

The song - "Skyfall" was released at 0:07 BST on 5 October 2012 as part of the Global James Bond Day, celebrating the 50th anniversary of the release of Dr. No, the first James Bond film. The song quickly went to the top of the iTunes chart, and reached number two at the UK Singles Chart and eighth on the Billboard Hot 100." Wiki

The film - "The premiere of Skyfall was on 23 October 2012 at the Royal Albert Hall in London. The event was attended by Charles, Prince of Wales, and his wife Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall.[99] The film was released in the UK three days later on 26 October and into US cinemas on 8 November." Wiki

Similar release prior to the film. Its popularity / radio play will help market the film.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Nov 6 2013, 3:58pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 4:26pm

Post #4 of 26 (285 views)
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" Its popularity / radio play will help market the film. " [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an important point. These end of movies songs are marketing tools and I often wonder if the score composer or even the director has much say in what *kind* of song or performer is chosen. They might be able to choose from an assortment presented. Or told they can choose as long as the performer (with their accompanying style) falls within a defined set of parameters. But it wouldn't surprise me at all if they must work with 'suits' in choosing someone (although, I don't know this to be the case and I remain ready to be told - by someone connected to this project - that it didn't happen here)

(pondering further - but not in reply to anything Eruonen said)

More and more, movies have multiple end of movie / credit songs that are released prior to the film's release and I don't know that the lyrics or tone have that much to do with the actual plot of the movie.

For all that we hold Tolkien dear, we - as Tolkien fans - don't own these movies. They are basically owned by large movie companies that have profit as their bottom line. If there is some compromise, on the filmmaker's part, in leaning toward a current pop sensibility for the end of movie song so that the movie can get made or that the filmmaker can keep the tone of the actual movie closer in line with what they want well... that's part of doing business.

I'm not saying I think this is all well and good but we live in the midst of a marketing world where profit is king. Understanding that - and understanding the compromises that people in the industry must make - can put things in perspective.

I have some situational fondness for Into the West. It's attached to a franchise I love. It's attached to a score I love. It features a thematic melody I love. It represents a culmination of an experience that meant a lot to me.

But I don't like Annie Lennox and I didn't like the lyrics. Not much at all. I loved Enya (as an artist) but didn't really think "May it Be" was the best end of movie song that could have been used for FOTR. I liked the melody of "Misty Mountain" and its thematic use in the score, but Neil Finn didn't thrill me. The only song in the franchise that I thought was *perfect* for the movies was Gollum's Song. That's probably the least like song by most people and the one with the most negative attitudes towards (although I See Fire is giving it a run for its money!).

But I can listen to any of those songs with throwing up, I can enjoy aspects of all of them, and I can let a song I'm not overly fond of fade into the background of all the things I do enjoy.

I will especially accept them if they were the result of some 'compromise' to sell more tickets such that the movie itself got made and got made well. I will also accept them if a good number of my fellow fans-in-Tolkien liked them. I don't have to have my way all the time (thank goodness since life never seems to accommodate me on that matter). If someone else I like is happy in one regard and I can be happy in another, it seems like a fair compromise to me. :-)


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Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2013, 4:42pm

Post #5 of 26 (276 views)
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And to keep it in perspective, the end of movie credits song is [In reply to] Can't Post

barely even heard by most people as they leave the theatre. The score throughout the film is the key to audience feeling.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 6:18pm

Post #6 of 26 (234 views)
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If what PJ and crew... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Said about the process how each of these songs were conceived, I would say they were pretty much chosen by the filmmakers, not the studio. For AUJ they did not even want one at first and just use the dwarven song again, according to the EE.

And wasn't Into the West heavily insprired by the death of this young NZ director?


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 7:27pm

Post #7 of 26 (198 views)
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yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

(re: Into the West)

and that's actually one reason it doesn't work well for me. But that's not really the topic and I hate to derail it (it's possible you'll find my comments re: ItW by searching my posts on the forum here)

But I think the type of song and the choice of singer (Lennox) was influenced by a desire to 'market' that song. Both Annie Lennox and Enya made numerous appearances on US.. late night talk shows (and some daytime talk shows) singing their songs. (and much of the marketing for the FOTR soundtrack revolved around Enya who was pretty huge at that time). That was done to promote the movies. Emiliana Torrini did not. Maybe she wasn't available but who tunes into Jay Leno to hear someone that is pretty much unknown in the US?

Using songs to market movies works differently today than 10 years ago. But I have observed quite a few movies being marketing via their end of movie / credit roll songs. Those songs aren't just entertainment for those who sit through the credits. Those songs are released in a timely manner, often in a time-release manner, to start to generate excitement for the movie. I'm sure there's a marketing timeline for each movie and one (or more) item on that timeline will include 'release of end credits song(s)'.

It's possible the choice of this song/artist had nothing to do with marketing (but, being someone who works primarily in marketing, I'd have a hard time believing it). And it's possible there was no pressure from the studios to 'go young' or 'go pop' or anything.

But I earn my Magpie nick by being a curious collector of information as well as objects and I've been watching how things (esp. movies) are marketed and following the marketing of the LOTR movies and soundtracks, I do observe trends and changes in trends. Songs *are* being used to market films. I have no doubt about that. Whether how its used comes by way of the studios or merely the filmmaker, I still think it bears considering for The Hobbit movies.

Another thought about marketing. A 'product/service' can market to one demographic and hit hard in appealing to that one demographic. Or, it can use different approaches and different choices to appeal to a variety of demographics. If the product/service is, in fact, attempting to appeal to a variety of demographics, it would make sense that some approaches would not appeal to some demographics. They were, in fact, never meant to appeal to 'those' demographic groups but only to 'these' demographic groups.

I think the movies feel they have (or not) the avid Tolkien fanst 'in the bag'. The ones who love the movies and are ambivalent but not antagonist to the movies do not need convincing. They just need updating (on info) and whipping up - excitement-wise. :-) The Tolkien fans who aren't keen on the movies at all will likely not be convinced by any kind of marketing.

To make as much money as possible (and it's a capitalist market, make no mistake about that), they need to appeal to casual movie goer who might not have ever read any Tolkien or isn't sure they want to see a movie about Dwarves or thinks these are movies for kids or thinks only geeks go to stuff like that. If they want to draw in a wider audience than just Tolkien fans, they have to widen their marketing approach to reach out to those. If the end of the movie song is a marketing tool, then the choice of the artist may want to reach out to regular folks. I warrant there isn't one Tolkien-movie fan planning to buy a ticket that will change their mind because they don't like the song. But someone may run across the buzz about the song (and it's being 'promoted' on lots of major websites) and that will be the thing that pulls "The Hobbit" into their sphere of awareness.

In case it seems like I'm in favor of that all these marketing strategies, I'm not. I work in marketing and I don't buy enough stuff to qualify for most marketing research groups. Marketing, for the most part, exists to make us believe that we need and want stuff we don't need and didn't know we wanted till someone threw the marketing at us. And I think creative decisions are made to the benefit of marketing but the detriment of artistic quality.

But this is the business and by understanding how marketing influences decisions, I can cut some people some slack for doing something I kind of wish they hadn't. That's really what I'm trying to say.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 6 2013, 7:53pm

Post #8 of 26 (182 views)
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Gollum's Song is my favorite, too [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so you know you are not alone. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 7:59pm

Post #9 of 26 (174 views)
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I don't mind... [In reply to] Can't Post

being a member of small but elite groups. :-D


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Elessar
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 8:03pm

Post #10 of 26 (172 views)
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Its a beautiful son [In reply to] Can't Post

Into the West I mean. The creation behind it is beautiful and one of the reasons it hits me so hard is it makes me think of my grandmother that I lost just a few years before the movie came out.



Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 8:14pm

Post #11 of 26 (163 views)
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I will not argue... [In reply to] Can't Post

...against anyone like the song for any reason.

But it didn't deliver what I hoped an end of the movie song would have delivered and my taste in voices runs differently than Annie's voice.

As I said, I take some joy in knowing that others liked it. It make you happy and that truly makes me happy. Especially knowing why it makes you happy. :-)


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Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 8:16pm

Post #12 of 26 (163 views)
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Well, I agree with you of course about marketing and capitalism. [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be stupid to deny that... and seeing how "I see fire" sells already, it works.

I just meant that I think the team has tried to bring art and capitalism together (as many people, even in Hollywood, do) and considering their timetable, I think the thinking was not as coldly calculated as other decisions often are in that business.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 8:28pm

Post #13 of 26 (156 views)
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you could well be right [In reply to] Can't Post

I would hope that both Jackson and Shore would at least offer their opinions based on their artistic experience in a hope to keep things skewed toward artistic quality (and I think they would). I would hope most movie-making teams would. But compromise means finding middle ground, not something that totally serves one purpose over another.

I didn't mean to present it as coldly calculating. But I think sometimes fans find any notion of marketing to be coldly calculating - especially when matched against the heat of our fannish passion. When I tried to talk a folk artist group who dabbles in Middle-earth music to release an album of Tolkien music they kind of threw the cold water of practicalities on that idea. (marketing and copyright issues being the ice cubes in the bucket)

I agreed it was likely not practical but, I said, sometimes it feels like we rule the world! I mean, we know how much this stuff means to all of us. We're immersed in it. But decisions do get made outside our hot passionate Tolkien fandom. :-)


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Thranderz
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 8:33pm

Post #14 of 26 (152 views)
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I'm quite sure [In reply to] Can't Post

that people will just listen to the song. I'm not sure if it's going to attract a wider audience. Frown

I simply walked into Mordor.


Elessar
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 8:34pm

Post #15 of 26 (147 views)
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Its all good [In reply to] Can't Post

I admit I wasn't sure I would like her singing the song at first then it hit me.

*virtual hug Cool



Fàfnir
Rohan


Nov 6 2013, 9:15pm

Post #16 of 26 (153 views)
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A bit off subject but... [In reply to] Can't Post

who else find extremely evocative and and powerful the way Smaug is only reffered as "the darkness" in the song ? Because if that's how you feel at the movie, that Smaug is the darkness personified, I would consider the film a success !

And of course, saying "the dragon" would make any radio a bit more reluctant to play the song


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 9:27pm

Post #17 of 26 (132 views)
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Oh do not misunderstand... [In reply to] Can't Post

In general I highly agree with you about marketing and all that.

I just wanted to add that I feel we got quite a good balance so far with the ME movies.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 6 2013, 9:32pm

Post #18 of 26 (136 views)
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Interestingly, the soundtrack for Hunger Games Catching Fire [In reply to] Can't Post

appears to be all pop renditions...


http://www.rollingstone.com/...ck-revealed-20130926


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 9:48pm

Post #19 of 26 (123 views)
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I guess the dragon, as well as the sickness... [In reply to] Can't Post

... PB talked in the recent interviews how Smaug is actually the "sickest" of all of them when it comes to greed.


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Arannir
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 9:50pm

Post #20 of 26 (123 views)
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I know it sounds ugly... [In reply to] Can't Post

... butI hope this will not suddenly hype in Germany as well... can barely stand the hype vibes from the US I get Evil


“All good stories deserve embellishment."

Praise is subjective. And so is criticism.


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 6 2013, 10:04pm

Post #21 of 26 (110 views)
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technically, there is a difference between soundtrack and score [In reply to] Can't Post

A soundtrack is a recording of the musical accompaniment to a movie. A score, however, is music composed for a movie.

So a movie can have a soundtrack release and a score release. In those cases, it's important to know the difference. I have occasionally mistakenly purchased a soundtrack when I really wanted a score.

For example,
Crow Soundtrack
Crow Score


I suspect there will be a score release for the upcoming Hunger Games.

Soundtracks and scores are marketed at different demographics, for sure.


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Glorfindela
Valinor


Nov 6 2013, 11:32pm

Post #22 of 26 (85 views)
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I saw the trailer for that today [In reply to] Can't Post

Looks really awful, have to say. Definitely not a film that I'll be seeing. Unimpressed


Earl
Forum Admin / Moderator


Nov 7 2013, 12:08am

Post #23 of 26 (85 views)
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Choosing Ed Sheeran [In reply to] Can't Post

Since you aren't on Facebook, I'm not sure if you are aware of this post by PJ.

Regardless of the choice, his post at least makes it absolutely clear that he and Fran had a choice :)


Quote
We have a tradition in our Tolkien films of having a song over the closing credits. It's very important that the song feels right for the world of the movie - and also carries the emotional resonance of the end of that particular film.

The Desolation of Smaug is no different. The ending of this film requires a voice and sensibility that will allow an viewer to process what they have just experienced.

It's always tricky to think of the right person to create and performance these songs. Someone who shares our passion for Tolkien, and somebody who is prepared to respect the film.

This year we are thrilled to have Ed Sheeran write and perform our closing song, "I See Fire".

My daughter Katie, deserves total credit for bringing Ed to our movie. He was touring New Zealand earlier this year, and Katie introduced me to his music. Beautiful haunting songs, full of passion and coming from a very genuine place in his heart.

We heard that Ed was a fan of our movies, so while he was playing in Wellington, we invited him around for a tour.

He then headed off to join Taylor Swift on a concert tour. But we had exchanged e-mail addresses.

A few weeks ago, we were puzzling about who to approach about the song that had to be written and recorded very quickly. We now had a strong feeling about the tone of the song, but we needed to find the right voice.

Katie reminded us about how great Ed's voice was, and how right it would be. Fran and I got it the second she mentioned it.

And I had his e-mail address.

I wrote to him on a Sunday morning, and asked if he was interested. He would need to fly down to NZ to see the movie, because it was critical he write from the perspective of the audience.

Within 48hrs he was in Wellington, having immediately jumped on a plane from London with his manager Stuart Camp, who was instantly supportive and helpful.

Ed watched the movie at Park Road Post, immediately went into a room, and started writing and singing. Much of what you will hear on this song was recorded that same day, with a few overdubs and tweaks the following day.

Despite having never played the violin in his life, Ed thought he might try overdubbing one himself, and Katie raced out to borrow a rather battered one from a school friend.

Pete Cobbin from Abbey Road was at Park Road mixing Howard's musical score, and was able to mix the song with Ed.

It was a great experience, and what you will see in this video are moments captured by our behind the scenes team during the creation of the song.

But the images are only supporting Ed's wonderful song. This is his direct emotional response to seeing The Desolation of Smaug, written and performed on the same day he saw the movie.

I am very proud to present "I See Fire”.


The Hobbit Soundtracks - Being an online archive of information concerning Howard Shore's score for The Hobbit films.

(This post was edited by Earl on Nov 7 2013, 12:09am)


Magpie
Immortal


Nov 7 2013, 12:34am

Post #24 of 26 (77 views)
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great story, thanks for placing it here [In reply to] Can't Post

and it's good to know he had enough choice to feel very comfortable with who he got.

After listening to some of Ed's stuff before the end credit song came out, I best liked his traditional songs done in a very distinctive way, particularly The Parting Glass and Wayfaring Stranger. I would agree with the description, "Beautiful haunting songs, full of passion and coming from a very genuine place in his heart."

However, the spark I felt for those songs didn't occur with I See Fire. I'm still willing to accept I'll feel differently about it over time and I don't hate it. But if I had listened to I See Fire first, I probably wouldn't have sought out other songs.

But then, my musical tastes are so eclectic and not in at all in the mainstream I'm surely not the easiest person to suit to a tee.


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IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Nov 7 2013, 12:35am

Post #25 of 26 (72 views)
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Not a Fan [In reply to] Can't Post

of the Skyfall song. In fact don't like it at all. And it never grew on me. Loved "May It Be" and "Into the West", which always makes me cry. Have never gotten close to "Gollum's Song." My least favorite. Had to learn to love "Song of the Lonely Mountain" but an a huge fan now. Will withhold judgment on "I See Fire". Am interested in all the angst about the artist for "I See Fire", as I don't know a thing about him and never heard him sing.

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