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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
New info about Smaug in Empire Magazine
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Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Oct 31 2013, 11:47pm

Post #51 of 76 (475 views)
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Thanks for making it clickable! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 1 2013, 12:04am

Post #52 of 76 (503 views)
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But Smaug cannot be a conversationalist only Bilbo can hear. That would suggest that [In reply to] Can't Post

it is the Ring which enables Smaug to talk in a comprehensible way, which would be a rubbish filled lie. the Dragons of the brood of Glaurung TALK! They charm, the bespell, they can make themselves plainly understood in speech whether one has a magic ring or not. If the Ring is shown allowing Bilbo to hear the spiders, it is very important that it not seem to also be the only reason he can hear Smaug. They actually don't ever have to show Smaug's mouth when he speaks. They could focus on his searching eyes every time he begins to talk, with the only indication in in his face being the movements of the area around his cheeks and eyes.

In Reply To
Also, if I'm not mistaken, they actually have psychic powers.
Having him talk was never an issue.
The issue is the lip sync.
Let's just hope they used some different unknown techinque.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 1 2013, 12:06am

Post #53 of 76 (487 views)
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Agreed. There is an enfeebling aspect about having to crawl/totter thus. [In reply to] Can't Post

I liked the notion of powerful forearms.

In Reply To
Too bad he'll be tottering around on the tips of his wings now that he's down to two legs.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 1 2013, 12:09am

Post #54 of 76 (486 views)
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This always struck me as ridiculous. How many normal Earth creatures breathe streams of fire? [In reply to] Can't Post

Sometimes people can take verisimilitude to the point of very silly.

In Reply To
del Toro talked about his frustration designing a dragon with four limbs and two wings because in reality no such creature exists. So I think even early stages they were playing around with Smaug's front limbs.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MatthewJer18
Rohan

Nov 1 2013, 12:10am

Post #55 of 76 (479 views)
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On the other hand, it does invite some interesting possibilities regarding mobility... [In reply to] Can't Post

(Smaug slithering through/beneath the gold piles, which is probably easier to do if he has two legs instead of four).


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 1 2013, 12:14am

Post #56 of 76 (464 views)
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Hush, its very religious and historical. [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool

In Reply To
I don't see the fuss about small things like that "not belonging in Tolkien". These stories are literature, not government documents or religious texts. Tolkien never talked about the mechanics of spider speech, anyway. He just wrote dialogue for them.

Has anyone actually seen a spider's face? Their mouths are like drinking straws and are covered by mandibles. They don't have "mouths" for speaking anyway.

We can't be picky about wolf anatomy for the wargs and then turn around and criticize the filmmakers for sticking to anatomy with creatures that are, unlike the wargs, explicitly called by their real animal name.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Nov 1 2013, 12:30am

Post #57 of 76 (483 views)
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Smaug is starting to remind me of something... [In reply to] Can't Post

...which may make some people take him even less seriously, although the scientific aspect of it fascinates me. Potentially, Smaug may be able to walk quite well with his forelimbs/wings. I've being reminded of something I read once about Quetzalcoatlus, which like other pterosaurs was quadrupedal upon the ground, but which had limbs more proportionally similar to ungulates. This meant that it was adapted rather well for both walking (even running, yikes!) and thermal soaring.

It's just a thought, mind you - but it shows that wyvern!Smaug may have a sort of natural precedent.

For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Nov 1 2013, 12:46am

Post #58 of 76 (435 views)
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2 legs [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ6v1xZdIS8

Mind you this is thirty years old but a Dragon design incorporating front legs and wings together can still be pulled off. For its day I thought they did it pretty well and with the special effects today, John Howe and Alan Lee, I think it can be pretty awesome.


starlesswinter
Lorien

Nov 1 2013, 12:46am

Post #59 of 76 (445 views)
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I actually think waking with wings sounds scarier [In reply to] Can't Post

The idea of a giant creature running unnaturally by its wings is almost more frightening to me than the normal four legged beast. Admittedly it could be done too silly, but if done well it could be really creepy.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 1 2013, 12:55am

Post #60 of 76 (469 views)
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Ever since Guillermo said on this discussion board [In reply to] Can't Post

that Smaug's design is influenced by his environment, I've been dying to know what he meant: "To me, Smaug is the perfect example of a great creature defined by its look and design, yes, but also, very importantly, by his movement and -One little hint- its environment - Think about it... "

Here is his full post.

There's only a few more weeks before we can see for ourselves.

*can'twait*

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Nov 1 2013, 12:59am)


Eruvandi
Tol Eressea


Nov 1 2013, 1:53am

Post #61 of 76 (406 views)
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Exactly what I was thinking! [In reply to] Can't Post

I now have a really vivid picture in my head of Smaug running around on his wing with those big ol' hooks he calls claws clicking on the floor...It actually creeps me out a little bit! They'd have to be really careful about the mechanics of his movement, but if one right, I agree it could be more frightening to see Smaug running in a seemingly unnatural manner than if he ran like a traditional four-legged dragon.


P.S. This is one of those times I wish I was good at drawing because the picture in my head of Smaug is so clear I wish I could show it to everyone!

My favorite speech from the entire LOTR series: Sam:ďItís like in the great stories Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger they were, and sometimes you didnít want to know the end, because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was after so much bad had happened? But in the end, itís only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come and when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those are the stories that stayed with you, that meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand, I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances at turning back, only they didnít. They kept going because they were holding on to something.Ē Frodo: ďWhat are we holding on to, Sam?Ē Sam: ďThat thereís some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and itís worth fighting for!Ē


Joe20
Lorien


Nov 1 2013, 2:00am

Post #62 of 76 (417 views)
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Yea I certainly think the two legged version will have [In reply to] Can't Post

a much more unique and memorable appearance than just an average four legged dragon.

When I think of a four legged dragon walking around I imediatly just think of a crocodile, aligator or goanna or something with wings. And to me that just doesn't seem very frightening.

Whereas the wyvern design gives off a much more conniving and scheming presence. Just imagine it hooking itself onto buildings and almost "slithering" around with its wings.

I'm no Harry Potter fan really but the dragon in the tournament one and the last one were both fantastic. And they were both wyverns if my memory serves me correctly.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Nov 1 2013, 2:33am

Post #63 of 76 (407 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes him more bat-like in a more sinister, hulking sort of way. However, I don't know if the 2-leg thing will work well wit how long and serpentine they've made him. I think we'll see him swimming through the gold and gliding through the air more often than hulking around like a giant bat. Though having him crawl bat-like up the columns of Erebor would look pretty cool. It'd be like a bat with an enormous prehensile tail.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Nov 1 2013, 3:29pm

Post #64 of 76 (305 views)
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Agree, but I wonder if something else is behind this concept... [In reply to] Can't Post

Weta Digital's creature modeling requires very specific anatomical muscle structures, and the more correct these muscles are the better the result. So I wonder if this "anatomically correct dragon" has something more to do with how the digital muscles work and where the muscles go as well as how all the bones fit together etc?


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Nov 1 2013, 3:38pm

Post #65 of 76 (298 views)
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Not sure if this is more a reference to the gold [In reply to] Can't Post

and the way the jewels encrust themselves into his scales. He's described as a red gold dragon, you wonder if he's just a red dragon covered in gold.

Is encrust the right word?


AncalagontheBlack
Rohan

Nov 1 2013, 3:52pm

Post #66 of 76 (291 views)
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I wonder if they wanted something real to model from [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9YlU47DYhI


Jerry Cornelius
The Shire

Nov 1 2013, 5:47pm

Post #67 of 76 (272 views)
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Sadly [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think we will see Del Toro's Smaug. It was described as a "flying battle ax", and our Smaug looks like your traditional wyvern.


Cillendor
Lorien

Nov 1 2013, 6:16pm

Post #68 of 76 (257 views)
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It's not impossible. [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you ever heard of the Bombardier Beetle? They squirt several chemicals from their abdomens that react with oxygen to produce extreme heatóbasically fire. Also in the Book of Job in the Bible, a sea creature called Leviathan is described that can spew fire. What kind of animal it was is unknown, but the point is that there are or have been animals who can do this.

Most likely for a large fire-breathing animal, it would accumulate special chemicals that ignite on contact with oxygen. When it expels them, they ignite and become fire.


Pazeer
Rivendell


Nov 1 2013, 6:58pm

Post #69 of 76 (254 views)
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I love the design [In reply to] Can't Post

The design of Smaug reminds me of one thing, and that is the dragons of Skyrim (The Elder Scrolls), and to be honest, those dragons are utterly fantastic-looking and really scary when they're walking!
It will be really cool to see Smaug creeping around in Erebor!


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Nov 1 2013, 9:16pm

Post #70 of 76 (208 views)
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The right word used perfectly. :) / [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Nov 1 2013, 11:15pm

Post #71 of 76 (199 views)
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But the illustration of Smaug on Thror's map has 4 limbs // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 1 2013, 11:54pm

Post #72 of 76 (185 views)
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I wouldn't exactly call The Book of Job, [In reply to] Can't Post

or The Bible, a work of historic or scientific relevance.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Nov 2 2013, 1:00am

Post #73 of 76 (168 views)
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I never said impossible. I don't believe either is impossible. I live in a universe where particles [In reply to] Can't Post

can be in multiple places at once, or no fixed place until observed, and of entanglement and possibly 11 dimensions. I don't think Sauron's Ring is impossible, not by a long ways, but it certainly isn't the sort of thing encountered in this world. If, however, I am going to deal in such things, I don't want a dragon redesigned just because none of our dragons (wait, we don't currently have any that I know of) are winged quadrupeds.

In Reply To
Have you ever heard of the Bombardier Beetle? They squirt several chemicals from their abdomens that react with oxygen to produce extreme heatóbasically fire. Also in the Book of Job in the Bible, a sea creature called Leviathan is described that can spew fire. What kind of animal it was is unknown, but the point is that there are or have been animals who can do this.

Most likely for a large fire-breathing animal, it would accumulate special chemicals that ignite on contact with oxygen. When it expels them, they ignite and become fire.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Nov 2 2013, 3:20am

Post #74 of 76 (163 views)
Shortcut
I think the answer could be in plain site...the dragon included [In reply to] Can't Post

on the map.

http://fc09.deviantart.net/...ofsauron-d5kbcbs.jpg


Cillendor
Lorien

Nov 3 2013, 10:21am

Post #75 of 76 (88 views)
Shortcut
And neither [In reply to] Can't Post

is your opinion on its historicity authoritative. But let's not get into this here please, k?

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