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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
I'm calling it right now!!!
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Yngwulff
Gondor


Oct 25 2013, 3:19am

Post #51 of 81 (287 views)
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Why not Bolg? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and people man about how he really hurt the film.....Crazy



Changing the timeline opens up such a huge can of worms, just for the sake of a "cool name"? Really?
Bolg could do everything Azog has done and IMHO make the final showdown so much the better at BO5A.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Oct 25 2013, 3:27am

Post #52 of 81 (278 views)
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Big deal.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, complaining will never change anything. Just enjoy it. The book is the book and the movie is the movie.


bborchar
Rohan


Oct 25 2013, 3:29am

Post #53 of 81 (285 views)
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I'm calling it that... [In reply to] Can't Post

A. I will buy tickets

B. I will watch the movie

C. I will know what actually happened in the movie and be able to discuss it :)


"I've been running all my lives, through time and space. Every second of every minute of every day for over 900 years, I fought for peace in a universe at war. Now the time has come to face the choices I've made in the name of the Doctor. Our future depends on one single moment of one impossible day. The day I've been running from all my life: The Day of the Doctor."


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2013, 4:29am

Post #54 of 81 (260 views)
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Azog would just order one of his underlings to do it.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 25 2013, 5:11am

Post #55 of 81 (257 views)
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I wouldn't be so certain. Lurtz seems, whether by design or discipline, to have [In reply to] Can't Post

a much higher pain threshold. Azog falls to his knees when Thorin takes his hand. Lurtz looses an arm and takes a sword in the gut and is still trying to get close and personal. If Azog had dropped like that fighting Lurtz, Lurtz would not have stood there gawking the way Thorin seemed to.

In Reply To
i was not saying i didn't find Lurtz a good villain, i did but he was rather one dimensional compared to Azog but yes like you pointed out he was created to be a killing machine. Now, the real question....who would win in a one on one fight...Lurtz or Azog?? my money would be on Azog.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 25 2013, 5:12am

Post #56 of 81 (258 views)
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Clearly for some it is a big deal. It may not change anything, but it seems bold to [In reply to] Can't Post

suggest that anyone force themselves to enjoy a highly controversial and largely arbitrary change.

In Reply To
Seriously, complaining will never change anything. Just enjoy it. The book is the book and the movie is the movie.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2013, 5:19am

Post #57 of 81 (262 views)
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Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Nah, Azog would handle Lurtz by himself! Azog is taller than Lurtz, he has more combat experience than Lurtz...Azog would win. Ok so Azog "gawked" when his arm was chopped off but Lurtz committed suicide by sliding himself all the way up to Aragorn as if he was going to give him a kiss. At least Azog lived to fight another day.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 25 2013, 5:29am

Post #58 of 81 (255 views)
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No he didn't. Dain killed Azog, lad. They've done brainwashed you already. lol [In reply to] Can't Post

If being a foot taller was all that mattered, the dwarves would definitely have lost, and Gimli would have been sunk at Helm's Deep. Lurtz was very impressinve in his battle with Aragorn. I am not saying who would win, but I don't think it is a forgone conclusion in Azog's favour.

In Reply To
Nah, Azog would handle Lurtz by himself! Azog is taller than Lurtz, he has more combat experience than Lurtz...Azog would win. Ok so Azog "gawked" when his arm was chopped off but Lurtz committed suicide by sliding himself all the way up to Aragorn as if he was going to give him a kiss. At least Azog lived to fight another day.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2013, 7:11am

Post #59 of 81 (233 views)
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i'm obviously referring to the film! [In reply to] Can't Post

Lurtz was impressive Wink but Azog more so...Don't forget Azog has killed numerous dwarves too, Lurtz only killed Boromir and that wasn't even hand-to-hand that was just shooting arrows at him.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Bumpypotato
Bree

Oct 25 2013, 7:54am

Post #60 of 81 (233 views)
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Actually, [In reply to] Can't Post

Restricting Azog to flashbacks - and possible more than just the one from AUJ - would probably have been the best way to include his character. For the record, I didn't really mind him in AUJ, and I actually thought he made a pretty decent enemy (albeit with too much screen time - that scene on Weathertop was utterly pointless), but thinking about it now, it would have been so much cooler to use Azog as a tool to explain some of the Dwarven history and to set up Bolg as the actual big bad orc. Book fans would be happy, and movie fans would be happy, since you still have a tangible enemy.


In Reply To
If they wanted to show Azog - and I completely understand the desire to do so because he is an interesting character - all they had to do was show him in flashbacks, etc. to build context with him. Since they thought that they needed a bad guy to chase the company throughout the first film Bolg would have sufficed there - but that was also unnecessary and the "pacing" problem was created in the first place by the production team changing the film from 2 installments to three.

There is no pacing problem - when you read the book do you feel like you'd rather be reading about a huge orc chasing the party on a giant warg? I suspect not.

The Azog/Bolg storyline from the book(s) is 100000 times more interesting than what they've come up with.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2013, 4:58pm

Post #61 of 81 (189 views)
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In the movie at least... [In reply to] Can't Post

I got the idea that when Lurtz did all of this stuff, that he was this weird mutant hybrid. It reinforced the idea that he was Saruman's evil genetic experiment's spawn. Creepy.....

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!


ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Oct 25 2013, 5:12pm

Post #62 of 81 (180 views)
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True.. [In reply to] Can't Post

The 'creep' factor and 'menace' was much higher for Lurtz. But Azog had a far greater screen presence and was just way more intimidating with his deep guttural voice and wide range of facial expression which added calculation and personality to his character. Indeed, Lurtz was essentially a mindless killing machine. Both work great in their respective roles. I will never understand the venom some people have for Azog.


architecthis
Lorien


Oct 25 2013, 5:27pm

Post #63 of 81 (196 views)
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that's your opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

and you're entitled to it. My opinion happens to align with what the critics have overwhelmingly stated - that it is only a mediocre film.

I don't doubt that it was a solid effort at all - it was a gargantuan effort! However, that does not make it a good film.

There are good things about it, but it is off the mark and suffers from poor decisions both on a design level and with unnecessary blatant changes to the source material.


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 25 2013, 5:33pm

Post #64 of 81 (182 views)
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Opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

They're like belly buttons. Everybody has one. lol

Whose right and whose wrong will vary of course. In the end I couldn't care less what the critics had to say. Their opinion isn't fact nor is mine for that matter. They welcomed to it but it isn't changing the fact that there are as many folks like myself and the previous poster who thought AUJ was awesome. So in the end I guess we're both right and wrong. Ah well. lol



architecthis
Lorien


Oct 25 2013, 5:46pm

Post #65 of 81 (179 views)
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wasn't arguing for the validity of the critics' opinions [In reply to] Can't Post

I was only stating that my opinion happens to align with their general consensus. I think most of them are also off the mark and rate the movie low due to the slow beginning etc. and if they understood the source material they'd know that the beginning, riddles in the dark, etc. are the films strong points.

It is a testament to how mediocre the film is that critics have by and large reviewed it as an action movie and based their assessments on those characteristics that merit a good action flick - you see, they don't get it, and the reason they don't get it is because it's not quite on the mark.

It's ALMOST a good film....sometimes


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 25 2013, 5:58pm

Post #66 of 81 (176 views)
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Opinions the sequel :-P [In reply to] Can't Post

It appeared you were stating their their opinion is the correct one because you agreed with them. It also came across that this kind of made your opinion the defacto opinion, and anyone else was welcomed to their but was wrong. Their opinion, yours, mine are no more correct is what I was getting at.

Critics looking at this like an action movie are the reasons why I check out any critics at all. Half the time I wonder if these folks are clued in at all. Then I remind myself its their opinion and I go on by.

We will have to agree to disagree on the film being mediocre or almost a good film. I would stand to the last breath I take that this film was not only a good film but a pretty awesome film. Yes, I have read the source material and no I won't stick by PJ no matter what. Tongue

Like I said in my previous post. Opinions are like belly buttons. We all got them.



(This post was edited by Elessar on Oct 25 2013, 6:00pm)


architecthis
Lorien


Oct 25 2013, 6:03pm

Post #67 of 81 (167 views)
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I respect your sequel! [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL

I very much respect your opinion! And I am a little jealous even. I've actually watched the movie countless times for the parts I really like!

Hears hoping that the sequel blows all of our minds!!!!


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 25 2013, 6:08pm

Post #68 of 81 (161 views)
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Opinions the trilogy [In reply to] Can't Post

I had to go with it again. Tongue

Cool. I don't mean to come across as being kind of grumpy towards you. So that wasn't my intent. I just kind of wanted to chime in when I saw something that kind of rubbed me the wrong way. I support and respect anyones right to like/not like the film. I've just seen lots of posts over the last year that kind of feel like they're telling me what to feel. That tends to get old.

I hope the second film does especially for anyone who didn't enjoy part 1 as much as they thought. Cool



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 25 2013, 6:30pm

Post #69 of 81 (164 views)
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Very much agreed. Except about not minding Azog. I was very irritated by his continued presence, though [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree he was a proper villanous character, but for what little we got out of him in way of dialogue etc., Bolg would have been a better fit from a story and continuity perspective. Also, Azog could have been given more lines in the flashbacks, so he would still factor well into the films.

In Reply To
Restricting Azog to flashbacks - and possible more than just the one from AUJ - would probably have been the best way to include his character. For the record, I didn't really mind him in AUJ, and I actually thought he made a pretty decent enemy (albeit with too much screen time - that scene on Weathertop was utterly pointless), but thinking about it now, it would have been so much cooler to use Azog as a tool to explain some of the Dwarven history and to set up Bolg as the actual big bad orc. Book fans would be happy, and movie fans would be happy, since you still have a tangible enemy.


In Reply To
If they wanted to show Azog - and I completely understand the desire to do so because he is an interesting character - all they had to do was show him in flashbacks, etc. to build context with him. Since they thought that they needed a bad guy to chase the company throughout the first film Bolg would have sufficed there - but that was also unnecessary and the "pacing" problem was created in the first place by the production team changing the film from 2 installments to three.

There is no pacing problem - when you read the book do you feel like you'd rather be reading about a huge orc chasing the party on a giant warg? I suspect not.

The Azog/Bolg storyline from the book(s) is 100000 times more interesting than what they've come up with.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 25 2013, 6:33pm

Post #70 of 81 (160 views)
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I am mainly going on the finesse, agility and speed Lurtz displayed fighting Aragorn, [In reply to] Can't Post

a known badass. That performance makes me think that film Lurtz vs. film Azog isn't an obvious win either way. Both of them would stand a reasonable chance of winning or of loosing, and both have distinct but different advantages over the other, but nothing deal breaking, as opposed, say, to the Balrog, who would obviously kill them both in short order, even without resorting to spell-lore.

In Reply To
Lurtz was impressive Wink but Azog more so...Don't forget Azog has killed numerous dwarves too, Lurtz only killed Boromir and that wasn't even hand-to-hand that was just shooting arrows at him.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Oct 25 2013, 6:44pm

Post #71 of 81 (161 views)
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sounds about right................ [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Go outside and play...






AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 26 2013, 12:38am

Post #72 of 81 (132 views)
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I will try to make concise sense of it. For one thing, for most, it has little to do with Azog being poorly designed or portrayed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think his design and performance were just fine, if not quite good. Here is the problem... The actual events surrounding his death, from, Thrain weeping and tearing his Beard and sitting a silent shiva, ere stating that the desecration of his father by Azog could not be borne, to the rallying of all the Seven Houses of The Dwarves, a thing that only happened because the greivous injury and insult to the heir of the Eldest of their Race was utterly intolerable to them, to the war, "They sacked every goblin stronghold they could find from Gundabad to The Gladden, And they hunted for Azog in EVERY den under the mountains, " to the final battle of Azanulbizar and the slaying of Azog, Dain hewing him down at the gate (for cinema sake, it could have been Thorin), but beholding the Balrog, the true lord and Terror of Moria, in the moment of his triumph, and going back to Thrain who now thought to reclaim the mountain with those famous words, ""We will not enter Khazd-Dum (Moria). YOU will not enter Khazad-Dum. . . It waits for you still, Durin's Bane (The Balrog). The World must change, and some other power must come before Durin's folk walk again in Moria.", all of it was MASSIVELY EPIC and deeply moving.

And when it was discovered that Peter was going to go bobcat wild and make THREE films of The Hobbit, it suddenly seemed very likely that this piece of history would find its way into the movie s. And, in a way it did. But, instead of that rich history, we get a not at all slain Azog running around like a massive, bald headed Captain James Hook, with not the slightest inkling that he was the one who caused the war and was the primary target of its Dwarven aggression. And for what? To have him fill a role much better suited to Bolg?

That is where the venom comes from. The fact that not all changes are for the better, and a change entirely without need is an objectionable change indeed.

In Reply To
The 'creep' factor and 'menace' was much higher for Lurtz. But Azog had a far greater screen presence and was just way more intimidating with his deep guttural voice and wide range of facial expression which added calculation and personality to his character. Indeed, Lurtz was essentially a mindless killing machine. Both work great in their respective roles. I will never understand the venom some people have for Azog.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


MechaGodzilla
Rivendell

Oct 26 2013, 1:30am

Post #73 of 81 (129 views)
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I agree with everything [In reply to] Can't Post

Fully agreed. There was just no need for this change, and it's definitely not for the better. I can live with it, but it is and will probably remain my biggest issue with this trilogy.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 26 2013, 3:40am

Post #74 of 81 (121 views)
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I feel the same. Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

unless Gandalf is badly shown up in Dol Guldur by Nazgul or in comparison to some of the rest of the council. lol. For now, this takes it.

In Reply To
Fully agreed. There was just no need for this change, and it's definitely not for the better. I can live with it, but it is and will probably remain my biggest issue with this trilogy.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Bumpypotato
Bree

Oct 26 2013, 6:49am

Post #75 of 81 (112 views)
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I guess I'm just hoping that his inclusion pays off. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although it might seem somewhat needless to keep him in the movies, if by the end of the third one they have somehow justified having both him and Bolg as antagonists, I am more than happy to overlook any canonical changes from the book. I suppose that's the main reason I haven't already given up on him, because none of us really know what to expect over the next year and a bit, and I want to stay open to the possibility that he may surprise us.


In Reply To
I agree he was a proper villanous character, but for what little we got out of him in way of dialogue etc., Bolg would have been a better fit from a story and continuity perspective. Also, Azog could have been given more lines in the flashbacks, so he would still factor well into the films.


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