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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD: Allegiance to Denethor

FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 23 2013, 7:41pm

Post #1 of 10 (1006 views)
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SCOD: Allegiance to Denethor Can't Post

Welcome to another Screencap of the Day.


Here are the images:




You can find the full sized images here, here and here.




The scene, in general, was very well done in my opinion – and is one of my favourites. It showed the relationship between Denethor and Faramir, and how their personalities clash. This scene is more about their different approaches to war. Faramir has been out and has witnessed what has happened in Osgiliath and how his men had been able to cope, whereas Denethor thinks that an army can take it back as, I believe, he still has it in his head that Boromir would have been able to have done it.


1) The screencap of Pippin is quite an interesting one as it shows that he is in the middle, torn between Denethor and Faramir, though clearly his expression is a disapproving one towards Denethor. What are your thoughts on this?

2) Did you like how instead of a Council with all the Captains, they decided to just focus on Denethor and Faramir, and include Pippin (who witnesses the whole discussion between them)?

3)

Quote
’Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’
‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’ said Denethor. ‘For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.’
[...]
'Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead, if you command it.'
'I do so,' said Denethor.
'Then farewell!' said Faramir. 'But if I should return, think better of me!'
'That depends on the manner of your return,' said Denethor.

~Return of the King | The Siege of Gondor


I thought it was very harsh, in the film, the way Denethor just says, “Yes, I wish that,” and takes a drink from his chalice as if what he had said was merely a casual remark. And then we see how upset Faramir is by his statement [poor him!]. What is your opinion on how the filmmakers carried out this part of the scene?

4) Any other thoughts/comments about this scene?

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 24 2013, 12:48pm

Post #2 of 10 (717 views)
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I like the irony in this [In reply to] Can't Post

I always saw this dialogue between the two as the middle part of three scenes which are connected very closely:

1) The Sons Of The Stewards (The Two Towers EE)
Boromir and Faramir are happy united after a won battle against the forces of Mordor in Osgiliath. Denethor appears and the mood changes completely. He asks Boromir to go to Rivendell to bring him this mighty gift. Boromir refuses because he wants to stay where belongs by his people. Faramir offers to go but Denethor commands his first born to go. "The one who will not fail me". --> We know what happened to Boromir and we know that Faramir would have been the better choice

2) Allegiance To Denethor (Return Of The King)
"Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’ ‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’. Funny isn't it? It's after all Denethors fault that Boromir died. 'But if I should return, think better of me!' 'That depends on the manner of your return,' said Denethor. Here he seems to be very hard and not caring about Faramir but...

3) My line has ended (Return Of The King)
When a supposedly dead Faramir is brought to him, Denethor realized that he indirectly killed both of his sons or at least is responsible for it. Btw I see a connection here to Theoden... but that's not the topic ;-)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 25 2013, 6:28pm

Post #3 of 10 (646 views)
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Great analysis there, Lieutenant! [In reply to] Can't Post

I must agree with you that those three scenes connect closely together. Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


elaen32
Gondor


Oct 25 2013, 7:13pm

Post #4 of 10 (718 views)
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Such a sad scene [In reply to] Can't Post

1) I think Pippin is quite taken aback that anybody could treat their son in the way that Denethor is treating Faramir. It is beyond his comprehension. I think that he is apprehensive as to the outcome and how it will affect him, also.
2) Well, I would have liked more of the captains to have been present in general- Prince Imrahil and co would have been interesting- but I understand why they were omitted. This setting works for the movie depiction of Denethor as an insane autocrat, but does not fit with the book Denethor as a shrewd political operator imo
3) Heartbreaking! How can any parent tell one child that they wished that that child had died instead of their sibling? Even worse considering the hypocrisy of Denethor, since it was he who insisted that Boromir, not Faramir, go to Rivendell. The first few times I saw this, I had tears in my eyes for Faramir (well, I did when I read the book too)
4) Denethor takes a long time over that meal- we see him drinking here and just about to start his meal. Later we see him stuffing his face with tomatoes and red meat as Faramir and co gallop towards Osgiliath. So, during the time that Denethor has been having his meal, Faramir has left, armed up, called his company to arms, planned and launched an attack on Osgiliath (which, in the book, is at least 20 miles away!). No wonder Denethor's rule is failing!!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 26 2013, 1:39pm

Post #5 of 10 (652 views)
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It is, indeed, such a tragic scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

That's what made me love Faramir even more - that he followed his father's duty, even until the very end. Heart

Nice answers there, elaen. Wink

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


willowing
Lorien

Oct 27 2013, 11:41pm

Post #6 of 10 (637 views)
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SCOD-Allegiance [In reply to] Can't Post

Faramir wasn't given an invitation by his father to sit at the table and dine with him that's for sure.

Found the food on his plate more appealing than the appearance of his son standing before him.

Could stomach the food but not the discussion he was having with Faramir. I think Faramir may have become nauseated at his father's table manners.

All three images capture a different mood for the three characters.

Faramir and Denethor lost something they both loved dearly and were mourning deeply at the loss. Each men were in need of comforting a trait that was more becoming to Faramir than it was to Denethor.

Faramir was quicker to recover from the loss and offered words of comfort and consolation to his father and perhaps even a shoulder to cry on, but to no avail. Everything that Faramir says is responded back in kind with sarcasm and suspicion.

Although his father is cold towards him, Faramir regards him with love and consideration even to the point of sacrificing his life for the brother he lost to please his father.

Pippin was witnessing and listening to an intense discussion going on between two men whom he had come to respect, one even more so than the other. Opposing forces at work in the personalities of both men. Which gave Pippin grave cause for concern the way the discussion was heading.


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Oct 28 2013, 12:12pm

Post #7 of 10 (610 views)
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One of my favorite parts! [In reply to] Can't Post

Including Pippin isn't a bad touch. I can't fully explain why it feels right that Pippin is there to see it, but it does. Perhaps the contrast between the innocent boy shocked by this family drama and the two older men already all too apathetic by what is unfortunately their reality is what makes it.

Also I don't think Denethor was casual when he took a drink from his chalice. He seemed as held by strong emotion, something between sadness and weariness. As if a man usually so in control of his outer thoughts and actions (but not his inner feelings) for a moment slipped from the role of a steward and was just a private person, and fragile one at that.

’Do you wish then,’ said Faramir, ‘that our places had been exchanged?’
‘Yes, I wish that indeed,’ said Denethor. ‘For Boromir was loyal to me and no wizard's pupil. He would have remembered his father's need, and would not have squandered what fortune gave. He would have brought me a mighty gift.’
[..]
'Since you are robbed of Boromir, I will go and do what I can in his stead, if you command it.'
'I do so,' said Denethor.
'Then farewell!' said Faramir. 'But if I should return, think better of me!'
'That depends on the manner of your return,' said Denethor.


That's so beautiful...

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 28 2013, 6:33pm

Post #8 of 10 (593 views)
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I guess you have a point there. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also I don't think Denethor was casual when he took a drink from his chalice. He seemed as held by strong emotion, something between sadness and weariness. As if a man usually so in control of his outer thoughts and actions (but not his inner feelings) for a moment slipped from the role of a steward and was just a private person, and fragile one at that.


Thanks for your answers, Faenoriel. Wink

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 28 2013, 6:36pm

Post #9 of 10 (609 views)
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I doubt Faramir would want to sit at the table and dine with his father [In reply to] Can't Post

though, I suppose, it would be his duty to oblige Denethor.
(Maybe he sometimes sneaks into the kitchen for something...) Sly

Sorry, getting off topic. Thanks for answering, willowing. Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Phantom
The Shire


Nov 2 2013, 3:33pm

Post #10 of 10 (581 views)
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Could you imagine... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the reactions of Faramir's men when he told them they had to ride to Osgiliath and attempt to re-take it? They had JUST gotten overrun there and then had to go back, horribly out-numbered. They must've been crushed knowing it was a suicide mission

And what do trees have to talk about? Hmm...except the consistency of squirrel droppings?

 
 

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