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Where the shadows are.
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Tol Eressea

Oct 22 2013, 4:01pm

Post #26 of 36 (155 views)
Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

But the use, I'd say, is metaphorical, not literal, and perhaps more of anthropomorphism. Metaphor can often be more misunderstood than simile, hence the conflation.


Oct 22 2013, 4:02pm

Post #27 of 36 (153 views)
Elves, who awakened when the stars were kindled, love the Night. [In reply to] Can't Post

Men, who awoke when the Sun rose for the first time, fear the Dark.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

Tol Eressea

Oct 22 2013, 4:05pm

Post #28 of 36 (149 views)
Exactly!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

You often say succinctly, what I fail to do in a multitude of words. It is more meaningful to choose to do right over wrong, than to be forced to do right. It may be simpler, and in a way, better, but as far as sentiment goes, I'd rather someone do something because it is the right thing, rather than out of fear or coercion.

Tol Eressea

Oct 22 2013, 4:08pm

Post #29 of 36 (170 views)
That is what I say!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not afraid of the dark, but the things in the dark. LOL!!

Yes, the nature of the beast, cannot be discounted when trying to understand him. Twilight was for Elves, Day for Men. Total Darkness would be of no use to either of them, though it does give Men new strength in slumber.

Tol Eressea

Oct 22 2013, 4:12pm

Post #30 of 36 (153 views)
The 'Smoke and Mirrors' are a lie [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, a lot of people say that illusion is 'smoke and mirrors', but I often find that darkness and obscurity plays a larger role in the Illusionist's trade. Misdirection, concealment, and deception. albeit benignly inclined, are his aim, in order to entertain us. The problems come when we lie to ourselves, allow illusion to supplant reality, or the aims of the deception are not so harmless.


Oct 24 2013, 4:42pm

Post #31 of 36 (143 views)
Sauron is after all, "The Dark Lord" [In reply to] Can't Post


Not all those who wander are lost


Oct 24 2013, 4:46pm

Post #32 of 36 (137 views)
as suggested above, the elves loved twilight (which includes light,stars, moon) [In reply to] Can't Post

But as stated earlier, Melkor used the darkness to build up a distrust between the Elves and the Valar. The dark actually worked against the Elves in that regard.

Also, when the light was created, Melkor hated it. and he destroyed the two trees of light, hence the chapter, "the darkening of valinor" which was not a good thing.

Not all those who wander are lost


Oct 24 2013, 7:50pm

Post #33 of 36 (145 views)
some thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkienīs use of the word shadow is a very interesting subject - thanks for making a discussion of it!

Tolkien uses the word shadow in several different circumstances, but I agree that more often than not the use of the word shadow takes on a symbolic meaning associated with evil or the influence of evil. In some instances "the shadow" even seems to be a name for/representation of evil in Tolkienīs works.

In the tale of Aragorn and Arwen from the appendices of LoTR we find this passage:

"And there upon that hill they looked east to the Shadow and west to the Twilight, and they plighted their troth and were glad.

And Arwen said: "Dark is the Shadow and yet my heart rejoices, for you, Estel, shall be among the great whose valour will defeat it".

But Aragorn answered: "Alas! I cannot foresse it, and how it may come to pass is hidden form me. Yet with your hope I will hope. And the Shadow I utterly reject. But neither, lady, is the Twilight for me.."

At his deathbed Aragorn says:
"But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring".

It seems to me that we are meant to equate the concept of the Shadow with Sauron, or at least the influence of his evil.

In several other instances the word shadow is associated with despair or fear/evil foreboding, for instance the chief of the Ringwraith is called "a shadow of despair..", we see the use of expressions like "a shadow fell on his/her heart". As we know, despair and succumbing to it has a particularly ominous ring to it in LoTR and is associated with the effect of the Ringwraiths or Sauronīs use of the palantir (Denethor).

Tol Eressea

Oct 25 2013, 1:35am

Post #34 of 36 (139 views)
Back at ya!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it intrigued, so I allowed my curious side to probe and ponder, hence this post!!

Interesting to note different usages--we have:

' (the) Shadow'

Evil, Sauron, and just plain badness.

' shadow'

The most common usage.' Into', 'cloak', 'of', and other words precede it, radically diversifying the meaning.

' shadows'

Too many uses to count with the above.


Oct 25 2013, 6:10pm

Post #35 of 36 (110 views)
Gandalf, Pippin, and shadows [In reply to] Can't Post

Just to throw in another example, I'm reminded of Frodo recovering in Rivendell and being greeted by Pippin, who hails him as "Lord of the Ring." Gandalf doesn't just scold Pippin, he does so while sitting (with heavy significance) in the shadows of a porch, saying that dark things don't come into that valley, and they shouldn't be named even if they don't, since the true Lord of the Ring is Sauron.

Then later in the Council, when Gandalf speaks in Morodor-language, the sun is blotted out, despite what he'd said earlier, so shadows can reach into the haven of light protected by Vilya. Shadows, shadows, everywhere.

Tol Eressea

Oct 25 2013, 6:53pm

Post #36 of 36 (116 views)
Maybe.... [In reply to] Can't Post

It has something to with the 'influence' over the 'presence' of evil? Evil doesn't appear physically in Rivendell, but its influence can be felt. This could compare to 'shadow of a chance' or 'overshadowing' something, as it remotely and indirectly plays a part, rather than physically impacting the outcome?

Call me Rem. Rembrethil is a lot to type!!

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