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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What weighed down AUJ
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dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 7:43am

Post #26 of 49 (301 views)
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No... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think they were right to introduce a Necromancer subplot as that IS in the background of The Hobbit. Sketched only, of course, so some invention was inevitable, and I haven't seen enough of it to fairly judge that invention.

For me AUJ wasn't 'weighed down' by anything. I enjoyed it first off and it gets better each time. Its only real weakness for me - and I wouldn't put it any stronger than that - is the tendency to slip occasional modernisms into the script, which, for me, don't sit well with the rest. It's as if an actor suddenly appeared with a wristwatch on, or took out his mobile. But that's minor, and I don't bother about it.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 21 2013, 12:24pm

Post #27 of 49 (267 views)
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I love them! [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the prologue to AUJ, and also to FOTR especially – fantastic set-ups for the films, in my view. The only prologue I didn't like so much was the one for ROTK.


In Reply To
Who actually likes the prologues? The prologue in AUJ was one of my favorite parts actually and reminded me the most of LOTR.



Noria
Rohan

Oct 21 2013, 12:29pm

Post #28 of 49 (267 views)
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Not for me. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm very glad that the Dol Goldur subplot is there, opening up the world of Middle Earth. As Dormouse said, there's not a lot of detail in the books so it has to be fabricated. I'll see how the changes to canon work out in the movieverse before I judge them

I also liked the prologue, both Erebor and the Shire. I loved all of the Ererbor/Dale stuff. Personally could have done without some of the Shire material but as I've said before, I don't believe it was for our benefit anyway. The Bilbo and Frodo stuff was aimed at people who have never read the books and might come into the movie thinking it's going to be the further adventures of Frodo. The prologue lays it all out for them.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 12:53pm

Post #29 of 49 (271 views)
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Here's another one.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I love the prologues of the previous films and AUJ's is wonderful. That enchanting glimpse of Dale - Erebor - all of it.

It's one of the things I'm looking forward to most in DoS, because it's where the magic starts. The screen goes dark and then - something - comes up to take you out of here and now and into Middle Earth - and it's one of the least predictable parts of the whole film.


Kilidoescartwheels
Rohan

Oct 21 2013, 1:44pm

Post #30 of 49 (252 views)
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The prolog [In reply to] Can't Post

I partially agree with you, but I truly loved the opening scenes of Erebor, Thror's gold addiction and Smaug. I look forward to the EE where I believe the whole scene is even longer - BUT I didn't care for the Bilbo/Frodo part at all. That's the part I usually skip through.


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Oct 21 2013, 3:58pm

Post #31 of 49 (240 views)
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I have few complaints other than.....;) [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Trolls....sounded a little to similar to orc scenes in LOTR.
2. Stone Giants...way over the top.
3. Goblin Town...way over the top to an even greater degree. That is where I first really cringed.
4. Radagast....the bunny sled and orc chase was just non-sensical. He kept coming back to where the company was hiding rather than leading them away.
5. Radagast fleeing like a scared rabbit from the bats etc. It seems he should have more inner strength but he is scripted as the fool so a fool he shall be.
5. The path into Rivendell should have been closer to the actual mountains rather than in the middle of a plain.
6. Great Goblin just a little tooo cheesy. I wanted a more menacing presence rather than Jabba the Hut.
Sure, some evil humor is fine, but it was too campy.
7. Too many cliff hanging scenes....
8. There was no need to have the company in trees about to fall over a cliff. they could have just followed the book but they wanted an ending scene with Thorin and Bilbo. Ok, but why would Azog dispatch another orc to finish off Thorin rather than taking pleasure in it himself? Oh well......

Other than those thing, really enjoyed it ;).
I really think DOS will be a major improvement.
AUJ had to carry the weight of introducing characters, motivations, relationships etc.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Oct 21 2013, 4:21pm

Post #32 of 49 (225 views)
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I could have written that list myself! [In reply to] Can't Post

The only additional comment I would make is regard the trolls - hated the snot/floater puerile nonsense, and the parasites dialogue made me cringe as way too modern. Still wished they'd managed to incorporate Gandalf's ventriloquism somehow...





In Reply To



1. Trolls....sounded a little to similar to orc
scenes in LOTR.
2. Stone Giants...way over the top.
3. Goblin Town...way
over the top to an even greater degree. That is where I first really cringed.

4. Radagast....the bunny sled and orc chase was just non-sensical. He kept
coming back to where the company was hiding rather than leading them away.

5. Radagast fleeing like a scared rabbit from the bats etc. It seems he
should have more inner strength but he is scripted as the fool so a fool he
shall be.
5. The path into Rivendell should have been closer to the actual
mountains rather than in the middle of a plain.
6. Great Goblin just a
little tooo cheesy. I wanted a more menacing presence rather than Jabba the
Hut.
Sure, some evil humor is fine, but it was too campy.
7. Too many
cliff hanging scenes....
8. There was no need to have the company in trees
about to fall over a cliff. they could have just followed the book but they
wanted an ending scene with Thorin and Bilbo. Ok, but why would Azog dispatch
another orc to finish off Thorin rather than taking pleasure in it himself? Oh
well......

Other than those thing, really enjoyed it ;).
I really
think DOS will be a major improvement.
AUJ had to carry the weight of
introducing characters, motivations, relationships etc.






"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Oct 21 2013, 4:29pm

Post #33 of 49 (224 views)
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Totally agree....full of worms! As if Trolls gave a care about [In reply to] Can't Post

such things.


Dipling
Rivendell

Oct 21 2013, 4:51pm

Post #34 of 49 (225 views)
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Another negativity thread [In reply to] Can't Post

Another negativity thread, it seems. Unsure


RosieLass
Valinor


Oct 21 2013, 4:56pm

Post #35 of 49 (212 views)
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Negativity threads are allowed as much as positivity threads. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 21 2013, 6:46pm

Post #36 of 49 (188 views)
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Yes, what Rosie said [In reply to] Can't Post

We welcome ALL opinions - positive and negative. All we ask is that people stay civil in their comments.


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 21 2013, 6:51pm

Post #37 of 49 (188 views)
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Do you mean "weighed down" in the sense of "making the film feel long-winded/weakened the pacing of the film"? [In reply to] Can't Post

I ask because that is what I associate with "weighed down". I see a lot of people talking about things they didn´t like about the film in general and I was wondering whether it´s this kind of general criticism you´re thinking of or if you were getting at a more specific criticism relating to pacing and exposition etc.

The scenes of the necromancer sub-plot relating to Radagast were definitely a very refreshing and welcome addition to the story for me - I loved them! They were both fun and beautiful, fascinating to watch and film-wise more relaxed. They also felt true to Tolkien´s themes as well as the general feel of the original story.

Personally I felt that the problem with the Necromancer sub-plot, or rather "The White Council" material in it, was the amount of exposition it contributed to an already exposition-heavy film. Maybe I would have felt a little differently about if they had decided to skip the scene between Gandalf & Galadriel which I felt overburdened the film with intrusive and self-important significance. That was just way too much for me, having Gandalf feed the audience the meaning of the story, following an already quite self-conscious council meeting full of meaningful glances.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Oct 21 2013, 6:58pm

Post #38 of 49 (186 views)
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Yes, agreed... [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, the White Council exposition amounted to very little and was almost pointless...

I've seen a (admittedly rough) fan edit where the White Council sequence is omitted altogether, with Radagast not bringing the blade to Gandalf until after the party have left Rivendell. Apart from the obvious continuity errors, this works better in that it gives Gandalf an obvious reason to leave the Dwarves before they reach the Misty Mountains (to check out the High Fells) and I found the Council scenes not missed at all - barely noticed their absence.






In Reply To

Personally I felt that the problem with the Necromancer sub-plot, or rather "The White Council" material in it, was the amount of exposition it contributed to an already exposition-heavy film. Maybe I would have felt a little differently about if they had decided to skip the scene between Gandalf & Galadriel which I felt overburdened the film with intrusive and self-important significance. That was just way too much for me, having Gandalf feed the audience the meaning of the story, following an already quite self-conscious council meeting full of meaningful glances.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Oct 21 2013, 6:59pm)


burgahobbit
Rohan

Oct 21 2013, 7:24pm

Post #39 of 49 (166 views)
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Prologues [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its hard to say whether there should or should not be a prologue in a film. One has to look at when you need the element of surprise, and when you need to establish a complicated plot for the audience to have any idea what the heck is going on. For LOTR, I think it is necessary, because there loads of different things that need to be established at some point (i.e. the Ring, the forging of the rings, Sauron's treachery, the passing of the rings, Isildur, Gollum, Bilbo) and all of it would have been too much to be a later flashback or a bunch of little flashbacks IMO. For The Hobbit, I wish the prologue would have been a story being told during the Bag-end scenes. It would not have been as difficult as LOTR because it is only really one major sequence (Smaug taking Erebor). I think that it would have been better not to know who Thorin was when he entered bag-end, nor who Smaug was. Why? Because that's how it was for Bilbo. In the hobbit book you understand things as Bilbo comes to understand them. I know that it can't be that way all the time because of the Dol Guldur subplot and lots of other things, but at least they could have it this way for the areas where Bilbo is concerned. I was thinking about this when I watched the dinner scene one day and Oin's line really struck me "When the birds of yore returned to the Mountain, the reign of the beast would end." The music, the mystery, Bilbo's sudden look of fright, all would have been a perfect introduction to Smaug for the audience, rather than the glimpses of wings and the fire that we saw in the prologue.

"I've found it is the small things, everyday deeds of ordinary folk, that keeps the darkness at bay. Simple acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps it is because I’m afraid, and he gives me courage.” - Gandalf the Grey.

"Do not be afraid Mithrandir, if ever you should need my help, I will come." - Lady Galadriel.


thorinoakenshield
Rivendell


Oct 21 2013, 8:25pm

Post #40 of 49 (153 views)
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Your misunderstanding [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont have an issue with having a Necromancer subplot, I just don't think they handled it right. They could have had it much closer to the appendecies - I don't think that they should have had Radagast involved at all in it. At least in AUJ, it seemed very scrambled and out of place. I have much faith that it will be better in DOS.


sycorax82
Rohan

Oct 21 2013, 8:41pm

Post #41 of 49 (149 views)
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The subplot suffered the most due to the 3 film split [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems much of what we're about to see in DoS, involving Gandalf and Radagast's further adventures, was originally in the first film. In fact, Gandalf entering Dol Guldur was a big part of the first main trailer. So essentially that plot was left too open-ended in AUJ.

I'm guessing AUJ originally concluded with the revelation that the Necromancer is Sauron and Gandalf being attacked, this acting as a dark cliffhanger.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 9:53pm

Post #42 of 49 (138 views)
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It is the same for me. I thought the Erebor prologue was magnificent, from the embassy of Thranduil, [In reply to] Can't Post

to the toy markets of Dale, to the glimpse of The Ring of Durin on Thror's hand and his subsequent decent into madness, to of course the coming of that vast firedrake, down from the North, to Thorin labouring in the cities of men with the old resentments burning in him like the forge fires. Loved it.

In Reply To
I love the prologues of the previous films and AUJ's is wonderful. That enchanting glimpse of Dale - Erebor - all of it.

It's one of the things I'm looking forward to most in DoS, because it's where the magic starts. The screen goes dark and then - something - comes up to take you out of here and now and into Middle Earth - and it's one of the least predictable parts of the whole film.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 10:19pm

Post #43 of 49 (120 views)
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Where your list and mine meet. Though I love a few things about Goblin Town (Gandalf's entrance chief amongst them) [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the trolls, minus the snot, were great.

I agree about the stone giants. I think they were TOO involved, and they diminish the terror of Smaug. He's the greatest calamity of the day, but those lithotransformers look big enough to wrangle him by the tail and fling him back into the Far North!

I disliked the structure of Goblin town ( I really would have preffered it to be a large cavern, much more like Gollum's but minus the lake). I also felt the chase was too long and over the top, HOWEVER, I thought the performance of the Goblin King was inspired, genuflecting mockery and all, and I LOVED Gandalf's entrance. It was one of the more iconic moments of the movie and possibly of the series (yes the book did it better, but considering Peter's sometimey position on magic, it was better than what I feared by far, and was a truly impressive scene) and I think it will remain such. It was epic, and if things descended into cheese a few moments later... well, what can be done. lol

Yeah, the chase was annoying and pointless. I liked the Warg introduction minutes before, but it was all down here from there. There are half a dozen great, less time consuming ways they could have handled that scene from that point forward.

I disagree about the flight and Radagast's strength. I think he displayed his inner strength well by healing the animal and frightening off the spiders, and, more significantly, by putting his staff firmly in the ass of ye olde Witch-King. I think that solidified him as "not a featherweight". I think the bats could be construed as something Sauron TURNED into (you rembember the Ford Coppala Dracula adaptation where the old vampire count literally turns into a swarm of biting, hatefilled rats?), in which case, Radagast getting out of dodge makes perfect sense.

I thought the Great Goblin was wonderful. He was frightening enough ( you may laugh at a distance, but you wouldn't want to meet him leering at you in a dark alley or anywhere else in your real life), but also comic, massive and grotesque, which is pretty much what I got from the one in the book. Mencaing ogre-orc was already covered in this film anyway by Azog (whose role should have been filled by Bolg! Now THAT is something that bothered me alot).

Agreed about all the damned cliffs and falls.

I kinda get the trees being on a cliff. I didn't like it at first, but as I think on it (though I do think they over did it), it does explain why Gandalf doesn't unleash another devestating blast of power, sense it would have sent the tree, dwarves and all, hurtling into a ravine.

In Reply To
1. Trolls....sounded a little to similar to orc scenes in LOTR.
2. Stone Giants...way over the top.
3. Goblin Town...way over the top to an even greater degree. That is where I first really cringed.
4. Radagast....the bunny sled and orc chase was just non-sensical. He kept coming back to where the company was hiding rather than leading them away.
5. Radagast fleeing like a scared rabbit from the bats etc. It seems he should have more inner strength but he is scripted as the fool so a fool he shall be.
5. The path into Rivendell should have been closer to the actual mountains rather than in the middle of a plain.
6. Great Goblin just a little tooo cheesy. I wanted a more menacing presence rather than Jabba the Hut.
Sure, some evil humor is fine, but it was too campy.
7. Too many cliff hanging scenes....
8. There was no need to have the company in trees about to fall over a cliff. they could have just followed the book but they wanted an ending scene with Thorin and Bilbo. Ok, but why would Azog dispatch another orc to finish off Thorin rather than taking pleasure in it himself? Oh well......

Other than those thing, really enjoyed it ;).
I really think DOS will be a major improvement.
AUJ had to carry the weight of introducing characters, motivations, relationships etc.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 10:20pm

Post #44 of 49 (120 views)
Shortcut
Parasites isn't really ultra modern. Worms have been a problem practically forever. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The only additional comment I would make is regard the trolls - hated the snot/floater puerile nonsense, and the parasites dialogue made me cringe as way too modern. Still wished they'd managed to incorporate Gandalf's ventriloquism somehow...





In Reply To



1. Trolls....sounded a little to similar to orc
scenes in LOTR.
2. Stone Giants...way over the top.
3. Goblin Town...way
over the top to an even greater degree. That is where I first really cringed.

4. Radagast....the bunny sled and orc chase was just non-sensical. He kept
coming back to where the company was hiding rather than leading them away.

5. Radagast fleeing like a scared rabbit from the bats etc. It seems he
should have more inner strength but he is scripted as the fool so a fool he
shall be.
5. The path into Rivendell should have been closer to the actual
mountains rather than in the middle of a plain.
6. Great Goblin just a
little tooo cheesy. I wanted a more menacing presence rather than Jabba the
Hut.
Sure, some evil humor is fine, but it was too campy.
7. Too many
cliff hanging scenes....
8. There was no need to have the company in trees
about to fall over a cliff. they could have just followed the book but they
wanted an ending scene with Thorin and Bilbo. Ok, but why would Azog dispatch
another orc to finish off Thorin rather than taking pleasure in it himself? Oh
well......

Other than those thing, really enjoyed it ;).
I really
think DOS will be a major improvement.
AUJ had to carry the weight of
introducing characters, motivations, relationships etc.





"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 21 2013, 10:25pm

Post #45 of 49 (115 views)
Shortcut
But that is part of the humour, and is fair game, I think. These trolls are not [In reply to] Can't Post

mentally retarded in the way the Cave Troll evidently was (sassed off to the Balrog and took a damaging blow to the skull for it?). One of them prides himself on being a chef and feels he doesn't get enough appreciation for the meals he makes, in the book one wants to let Bilbo go, softened by drink, and comments on how the others cannot expect people to come around just to get "et" up by them. They are very comical, and concerened with common things. And yet, still somewhat scary for all that. Bilbo was in real danger when Bert knocked him back with the spoon and discussed what he'd add up to skinned and boned.

In Reply To
such things.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Oct 22 2013, 6:45am

Post #46 of 49 (85 views)
Shortcut
Yes, they have... [In reply to] Can't Post

and it would have been better if they'd used the word "worms" instead of "parasites..."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 22 2013, 7:44am

Post #47 of 49 (79 views)
Shortcut
Fair enough. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and it would have been better if they'd used the word "worms" instead of "parasites..."


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


RosieBaggins
Rivendell


Oct 22 2013, 11:41am

Post #48 of 49 (83 views)
Shortcut
I enjoyed those scenes. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it added a lot to the story.

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starlesswinter
Lorien

Oct 28 2013, 9:40am

Post #49 of 49 (37 views)
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The Prologue is the best part of the film [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the prologue was the most confident bit of filmmaking in the entire movie. The tone, pacing, editing, and cinematography were all superior to the rest of the film that it honestly surprised me how disjointed the second half ended up being.

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