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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Rumor: TDOS running time 156 minutes
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Arannir
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 9:40am

Post #76 of 88 (245 views)
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I know this will not help you... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and nobody can deny really that the Witchking was deliberately shown as extremely powerful here. But maybe I still type down how I watch that scene with my lore mind switched on: that is the moment Sauron is most powerful and so grows his and his allies and servants power and malice. And the Witchking kind of is the embodiment of that power peak. The moment the defeat of the West would have started if the Rohirrim would not have arrived. Something that even the arrival of the Army of the Dead would not have solved.

Actually purely movieverse speaking that last issue is kind of solved by the Witchking encounter. In the theatrical version some people felt the arrival of the Dead Army made the whole fight before look unnecessary. So it was important to show that they simply would have been too late and the defeat of Gondor and the Free Peoples already too high if it weren't for the defenders and especially the Rohirrim and Theoden.

But that does not help the power relationship displayed. I know no-one can solve that pain for you ;)



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 20 2013, 9:50am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 10:22am

Post #77 of 88 (225 views)
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That's an interesting take on it.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I always tried to watch it as a projection of the Witchking's words in that scene in the book - 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!'

As if he is showing Gandalf what Gandalf most fears - because fear is Sauron's greatest weapon, and Gandalf doesn't have any certainty about the encounter - and we're seeing it too. It isn't really happening - can't be, because in the next scene Gandalf still has his staff - it's just what the Witchking wants you to think.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 11:09am

Post #78 of 88 (214 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I always thought the scene worked very well in terms of the movie and did not find it too bad how powerful the Witchking seems to be here... though I was surprised how strong the scene played out in terms of the power balance, I did not mind it too much because of my explanation mentioned above.

All in all, I have stopped long ago worrying too much about what others might think about Tolkien's work walking out of the cinema or a TV evening. Probably because I spent a lot of time explaining others the "real" story during and after the LotR trilogy releases.

At some point I realized that this did neither improve my feeling about the books or movies, nor did it imrpove anything for my friends - it certainly had not much influence on how they perceived Tolkien's work. If anything, some found it interesting when they ultimately did read the book to spot the differences - some, however, told me to sod off at some point because my explanation of details simply was not relevant to their movie experience. So I try to hold back with forcing my Tolkien knowledge down the throat of others unless those who know I am pretty interested in Tolkien ask me.



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on Oct 20 2013, 11:11am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 2:29pm

Post #79 of 88 (175 views)
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I think that is a fair assumption, but I don't think it is one a lot of moviegoers would catch. [In reply to] Can't Post

Its worth note that in the only other account of that scene actually written by Tolkien that takes it slightly further (and I don't generally quote History of Middle Earth draft material, or things from before LOTR was published, because much of what is in them cannot be taken as final intent), the Witch-King raises his sword, but then his hand wavers and he lowers it, seeming to shrink, THEN he hears the horns of the Rohirrim and turns away.

In Reply To
I always tried to watch it as a projection of the Witchking's words in that scene in the book - 'Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!'

As if he is showing Gandalf what Gandalf most fears - because fear is Sauron's greatest weapon, and Gandalf doesn't have any certainty about the encounter - and we're seeing it too. It isn't really happening - can't be, because in the next scene Gandalf still has his staff - it's just what the Witchking wants you to think.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elskidor
Rohan

Oct 20 2013, 2:38pm

Post #80 of 88 (175 views)
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About EE [In reply to] Can't Post

Just let it go...


The best thing for it really, dude.


I hated what they did to the X-Men films...I absolutely hated it, but it brought on new viewers. When I was growing up my sister always nagged me about liking the X-MEN..like It was some sort of plague or I was doing wrong by participating in the hype. Hell, I thought they were great no matter what she said but it took a movie to make her realize that, "Hey, these guys are kinda cool, but just got a bad wrap"...to put it lightly. I yelled so much at her because she didn't listen to me before, but fell into half ass story that didn't even give the real story justice but life goes on, and she still loves X-MEN to this day....Sometimes you gotta let go of some of the hate and let people enjoy the story through a film. So what is Gandalf woulda whipped his ass, and so what if PJ portrayed it badly..I said it 10 years ago, and Ill say it again..PJ has done a better job than more than half of the directors woulda DONE, so respect what he does, and crit on the boards...he still does a better job than any of the other 90%.

Sign any of us up for the job and we would be crappy. We may know the story goes,, but knowing how to produce it is a different mutant...give PJ credit where it is due and please stop slamming him, lol.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 20 2013, 2:44pm

Post #81 of 88 (177 views)
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I've always seen it as a reflection of these words of Tolkien's [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgűl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. (Letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ, once again)






I think the seen is poorly executed, and the shattering of the staff both looks and seems ridiculous, but they do successfully demonstrate that Gandalf was successful in his real task; inspiring human resistance to Sauron's dominance, wonderfully evoked by the Horns of Rohan.

I saw a fan edit once that removed the staff-shattering and instead had the Horns sound right after the WitchKing's "‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it?" speech, and I thought it came off wonderfully (although generally I don't like fan edits).

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 2:51pm

Post #82 of 88 (169 views)
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Praise where it is due, criticism where it is due. [In reply to] Can't Post

That is fair, and that is what I do. I am not some ardent Peter hater. I have filed plenty of posts and comments supporting things he has done.And there were plenty of wonderful things he did in all of these films. But I will also speak up on things that were objectionable. And there were a few of them and some of them were VERY objectionable. It is as it is.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 2:59pm

Post #83 of 88 (173 views)
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Agreed. Funny thing, I was actually very much looking forward to the scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

and wondering why it was left out of the theatrical. Then I read about and saw it and thanked God it was left out of the theatrical. lol

Aside from the power imbalance, it raised too many questions. If The Witch-King had so easily broken Gandalf's staff and had him, seemingly, at his mercy (now, you and I and those of us who follow things closely will get that even sans staff nothing was certain for The Witch-King, and that Gandalf continued his battle with the Balrog and was still able to call upon great power despite his staff having been lost on the bridge... but for the casual viewer), why would he not press the attack? Surely whatever was going on in the field could wait another five minutes if it meant taking the oppositions greatest player off the board? In the actual scene, the Witch-King is caught between two uncertainties, and he chooses to adress the issue he is likely more certain of effecting in a way that will work to his benefit. He leaves off from an uncertain and inevitably taxing battle with another Power, and instead goes to wreak havoc on the newly arrived, but entirely mortal and susceptible to his power, ally troops of his foes. It makes sense. It doesn't make so much sense in the film. Ah well. What the hell. lol

In Reply To

Quote
He alone is left to forbid the entrance of the Lord of Nazgűl to Minas Tirith, when the City has been overthrown and its Gates destroyed — and yet so powerful is the whole train of human resistance, that he himself has kindled and organized, that in fact no battle between the two occurs: it passes to other mortal hands. (Letter 156 To Robert Murray, SJ, once again)






I think the seen is poorly executed, and the shattering of the staff both looks and seems ridiculous, but they do successfully demonstrate that Gandalf was successful in his real task; inspiring human resistance to Sauron's dominance, wonderfully evoked by the Horns of Rohan.

I saw a fan edit once that removed the staff-shattering and instead had the Horns sound right after the WitchKing's "‘Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it?" speech, and I thought it came off wonderfully (although generally I don't like fan edits).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 3:15pm

Post #84 of 88 (165 views)
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No, I don't suppose they would... [In reply to] Can't Post

We've talked about this scene before and I agree with you and Voronwe that it would have been much better if they had left Gandalf on his horse, sword in hand when the horn sounded. But they didn't. The scene is as it is, so I've just created my own way of watching it - my own framework within which, for me, it works.


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 3:51pm

Post #85 of 88 (151 views)
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Gandalf v Morgul Lord [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved the discussion that went on the other day. It was a great read to see how others take moments and the history. For me with that scene I just go with Gandalf though very powerful falls under same human rules when dealing with the Morgul Lord.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 4:44pm

Post #86 of 88 (136 views)
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Makes sense. Good call. I, for my part, just watch the movie wherein it never happens. lol [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We've talked about this scene before and I agree with you and Voronwe that it would have been much better if they had left Gandalf on his horse, sword in hand when the horn sounded. But they didn't. The scene is as it is, so I've just created my own way of watching it - my own framework within which, for me, it works.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 20 2013, 4:56pm

Post #87 of 88 (136 views)
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The problem with that is that it doesn't stand to reason. For one thing, [In reply to] Can't Post

he clearly doesn't suffer under the normal rules because he isn't overcome with terror. The Morgul Lord is the greatest of The Nine, but still one of them. If anything, it would be he who is subject to the same rules (whatever they are) as the Nazgul, though to lesser degree, hence his reaction to Glorfindel. And The Morgul Lord had already encountered Gandalf, and had not been able to overcome him in a nightlong standoff with all of the other wraith-lords present. Granted, Sauron's power had not waxed so far at that point, so some discrepancy is allowed.

I think some of Tolkien's earlier confusion about the exact origins sometimes spills some of its aspect into the text. In earlier drafts, there were suggestion that The Witch-King may have once been one of the Wizards' Order, or that Saruman and the rest may have been more akin to actual men belonging to a clandestine order. I think, here or there, lines from that time of uncertainty slip through, and cause some discolouring when viewed in light of the final facts and truths wherein the wraiths were men who delved in sorcery and were augmented and corrupted by Sauron's Rings and power, whilst The Wizards were Holy Spirits of Sauron's own original kind, but embodied in the forms (for the most part) of men.

We have gotten a long way off from the proper running time for this movie Crazy Wink Laugh

In Reply To
I loved the discussion that went on the other day. It was a great read to see how others take moments and the history. For me with that scene I just go with Gandalf though very powerful falls under same human rules when dealing with the Morgul Lord.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 6:03pm

Post #88 of 88 (130 views)
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I don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see the logic in the argument that it's totally inaccurate but I can see how he would be held to the same rules. That's why I can roll with that scene and it not be an issue. Like I said Frodo sending Sam away is a much bigger issue for me. That one still ticks me off. Unimpressed

I do think we have but at least it was a fun off track convo. :)


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