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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
PJ in the NZH on Music, Smaug the Psychopath, and the Heavenly Creatures Mode
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Arannir
Valinor


Oct 18 2013, 10:39pm

Post #1 of 43 (1924 views)
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PJ in the NZH on Music, Smaug the Psychopath, and the Heavenly Creatures Mode Can't Post

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/...mp;objectid=11141634

Enjoy :)



ďA dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of menís imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.Ē J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


MatthewJer18
Rohan

Oct 18 2013, 10:54pm

Post #2 of 43 (921 views)
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Interesting comments on the inspiration for Smaug's theme: [In reply to] Can't Post

So the stings we briefly heard in the AUJ prologue are from Smaug's theme. They sound great. Powerful, foreboding, etc.


Quote
Occasionally, as the film's prologue cuts to the movie's title, the room fills with a great rumbling of sound topped by a minor-key shriek of strings which sound almost Chinese in its foreboding motif.

"That is a little bit of a Smaug theme in the title," murmurs Jackson after I've sunk into the couch alongside him, leaving my own footwear on. He explains composer Howard Shore, who also did The Lord Of The Rings scores, created a theme for Smaug the dragon - seen briefly enacting a scorched Middle-earth policy in the first Hobbit movie - inspired by the prominence of dragons in Chinese and Indonesian culture. Plus a touch of Psycho.



Skaan
Lorien


Oct 18 2013, 11:06pm

Post #3 of 43 (845 views)
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Great read [In reply to] Can't Post

I especially like the fact that the opening scene has Smaug's theme playing in it. It really looks like Smaug will be the main focus of the movie now, rather than just being the main focus towards the ending.


MTRougeau
Bree

Oct 19 2013, 2:16am

Post #4 of 43 (819 views)
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The lack of Howard Shore troubles me GREATLY. [In reply to] Can't Post

He composed the music, sure, but he didn't orchestrate this time around and he's not conducting, either. Conrad Pope not liking a certain note and having the authority to remove it?? As a die hard LOTR music fan, that is my worst nightmare. Plus, instead of LPO, we are getting the NZSO. Just too many changes this time around. Will the music still be recognizable as Shore's? Sure. Will it be the "same" as what we've had before? I'm not so sure.


(This post was edited by MTRougeau on Oct 19 2013, 2:17am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 19 2013, 2:27am

Post #5 of 43 (733 views)
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Being an Ancient Monster [In reply to] Can't Post

Mr. Magnificent was fully aware
there would Someday be
an Attempt at seeking
BACK what really was
NOT his in the
First place...

Bomby Hadn't ever realized Anything like that?

Smaug's perpective?

Shows such a Deep understanding
from the Depths of the thousands of hours
of thinking done by PJ's Crew.
Until reading this
Article...

ROCk ON! to everyone involved...

Bomby just KNOWS
YOU KNOW
what
you all
are doing!


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 19 2013, 2:37am

Post #6 of 43 (766 views)
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Uhm [In reply to] Can't Post

The NZSO recorded the entire Moria sequence of FOTR.


Every composer uses Orchestrators.

Every conductor makes podium changes, even Shore, for example Master Meriadoc, Swordthain. changed from the Rarities Archive version, to the Complete Recrodings/film version.


(This post was edited by Faleel on Oct 19 2013, 2:39am)


MTRougeau
Bree

Oct 19 2013, 2:43am

Post #7 of 43 (739 views)
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Yes.. [In reply to] Can't Post

but that was Shore making those changes in all the previous films, not anyone else. You are incorrect when you say that every composer uses orchestrators, especially when it comes to Howard Shore. He almost never uses them, and never has before on a LOTR score. He also nearly always conducts his own scores, but here again, he isn't. I have nothing against podium changes, but I do have an issue if the change is not coming from Howard himself, and I worry that the score will not fully be his when the final product is released. I worry that it won't be "pure" in the sense that the previous 4 movie scores were. This one will be slightly "tainted" by other people, even if the end product is amazing.

Also, yes, the NZSO performed the Moria sequence, which sounded amazing (except, IMHO, for some of the string parts. Tough to beat the LPO's string section). But he still orchestrated AND conducted the NZSO for the Moria stuff, as well as made podium changes. So my worry still persists that this won't be pure Shore.


(This post was edited by MTRougeau on Oct 19 2013, 2:46am)


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 19 2013, 2:53am

Post #8 of 43 (706 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

I obviously meant everyone (exempting Shore of course) from John Williams (Arrangements and Orchestrations by Angela Morely!), and Jerry Goldsmith (Arthur Morton, Alexander Courage), John Barry (Nic Raine), to Hans Zimmer (Too many to list)

Shore's sketches are said to be VERY detailed, so any orchestration would be very much polishing. (BTW Shore has used copyists and such)

From what I have heard, people who have worked on the scores have said that they are very much Shore-ian

I think its a (very) little selfish to complain about Shore trying to ease the workload on himself.


(This post was edited by Faleel on Oct 19 2013, 2:57am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 19 2013, 3:05am

Post #9 of 43 (688 views)
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Bomby is SURE! SHORE was viewing ALL LIVE and Commenting [In reply to] Can't Post

via the Internet from Canada.


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 19 2013, 3:08am

Post #10 of 43 (683 views)
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Plus [In reply to] Can't Post

He was doing a talk at a church around the time of the Recording Sessions.


Metal Slug
Rivendell

Oct 19 2013, 3:21am

Post #11 of 43 (747 views)
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So, there will be a [In reply to] Can't Post

prologue to DOS. That's what the author wrote anyways. I know there's been some debate as to how Jackson would begin it.

Gandalf getting the key from Thrain?


MTRougeau
Bree

Oct 19 2013, 5:53am

Post #12 of 43 (619 views)
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I have no problem... [In reply to] Can't Post

with the Maestro easing his workload UNLESS it leads to an inferior or diminished work, which is what I fear. If that makes me selfish, then I guess I'm selfish. I fully hope that I'm wrong, and that the score will be indistinguishable from previous Middle-earth music. I'm just not sure it will be.


(This post was edited by MTRougeau on Oct 19 2013, 5:53am)


haarp
Rivendell

Oct 19 2013, 11:03am

Post #13 of 43 (550 views)
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Where [In reply to] Can't Post

 IS SHORE?????


(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 19 2013, 11:35am)


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 19 2013, 11:15am

Post #14 of 43 (544 views)
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Could we all agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

... to keep that Shore-topic a bit more rational?

There have been plenty of explanations given by now.



ďA dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of menís imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.Ē J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Altaira on Oct 19 2013, 11:39am)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 19 2013, 12:03pm

Post #15 of 43 (478 views)
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I'm sure Howard Shore still has to give the final score the thumbs up. So it's still his // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 19 2013, 12:09pm

Post #16 of 43 (504 views)
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Not the best place to discuss it. It's a big debate... [In reply to] Can't Post

But my hope is still that it starts with Gandalf and Thorin meeting in Bree and going into a Dol Guldur flashback.

I like the idea of them setting up the Bag End meeting, Gandalf describing Bilbo to Thorin as a "great burglar" and then cutting to Bilbo looking goofy admiring the view from the Carrock.


Xanaseb
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2013, 12:42pm

Post #17 of 43 (487 views)
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If what the author says in this article is true regarding the prologue... [In reply to] Can't Post

...then Smaug features heavily in some fashion (if the loud noises and almost-chinese Smaug motif is anything to go by).
How and what? Not sure, maybe a flashback to one of his rampages? Maybe even a more revealed sequence of events of when he stormed Erebor?

Whatever it is, I like the sound of starting the film with something Smaugy. It would be very fitting.

"So your own praise will forever keep your name green,
Both here on Earth and on the stage of the stars" - J.G.Kittel, writing about the composer Jan Dismas Zelenka (1740)
__________________________________________

Join us over at Barliman's chat all day, any day!
__________________________________________




(This post was edited by Xanaseb on Oct 19 2013, 12:42pm)


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Oct 19 2013, 12:44pm

Post #18 of 43 (472 views)
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Could be Girion in Dale [In reply to] Can't Post

Or it might just be a Smaug motif used when the title "Desolation of Smaug" comes up. Similar to how the Fellowship theme plays when the "Fellowship of the Ring" title comes up?

We'll see.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 19 2013, 1:43pm

Post #19 of 43 (423 views)
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Amen to that! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2013, 2:02pm

Post #20 of 43 (429 views)
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in general agreement [In reply to] Can't Post

 
while i am not denigrating the contributions of non-shore individuals to the production of the score, it is strongly my preference that shore be as fully involved in the actualization of the music as he has been in the lotr films.

on the smallest note (hey -- there's a pun, there), i'll just offer an example of how a different conductor can affect the finished product.

growing up, i had a recording of prokofiev's romeo and juliet. i loved it. unfortunately, i lost it. so, i tried to track down another copy. i falsely remember the name of the conductor and the orchestra (i thought it was von karajan, and the vienna symphony orchestra), so i finally bought, as a substitute, a recording conducted by seiji ozawa.

yes, it was good, but it was +not+ the same (to add: i am +not+ a highbrow audiophile). i had particularly, vividly remembered "the death of tybalt" from the first recording i had, and it was imprinted on my mind. ozawa's interpretation of that section was so different that i was extremely disappointed. and that's not saying it was bad. it wasn't -- it was just not the interpretation i had wanted and for which i had hunted a long time.

i caught a break when i remembered that the conductor of my original version was riccardo muti (with the philadelphia orchestra).

so, again, not denigrating anyone's contributions -- but -- i definitely would wish for howard shore to have as much involvement with the actualization of the score as he did with the lotr films.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


MTRougeau
Bree

Oct 19 2013, 2:23pm

Post #21 of 43 (399 views)
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Thank you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think people realize how much can change with different orchestras and different conductors. I have performed with several orchestras in my life, and there can be a HUGE difference even though the notes on the page are exactly the same. Will the music still be Shore's? Yes, but not FULLY Shore's, from a compositional standpoint (Pope making podium changes) and from a performance standpoint (Pope conducting). Now, I'm sure Mr. Pope has done his homework with regard to the LOTR scores, so he knows the style and has orchestrated accordingly. But podium changes on the fly not coming from Shore? Add to that the incredible variance conductors and orchestras can bring to a performance and it makes me think that there will be a discernible difference in the end product when compared to the previous LOTR scores, at least for the musically trained among us who have highly discerning ears. We shall see in a few weeks.


(This post was edited by MTRougeau on Oct 19 2013, 2:24pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 19 2013, 2:31pm

Post #22 of 43 (392 views)
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before my [In reply to] Can't Post

 
before my personal experience (described above), i absolutely didn't realize how a different conductor or orchestra could dramatically affect the finished product. my thinking was, "they're the same notes, so how different could it be, to a non-hardcore listener like me?" how wrong i was.

you have the extra perspective of being a musician with first-hand experience performing with different orchestras and different conductors, so your understanding of how these two variables impact the finished product is even more enhanced.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 19 2013, 2:42pm

Post #23 of 43 (391 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that Watford closed down. so AUJ already had a difference from LOTR.


MTRougeau
Bree

Oct 19 2013, 2:47pm

Post #24 of 43 (383 views)
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True. [In reply to] Can't Post

And some would say a noticeable one! There's a discussion right now on JWfan about AUJ's "sound" and mix compared to LOTR's. (One result is much stronger bass in AUJ than in any of the LOTR scores.) But changing venues to another comparable venue will have much less impact on the score than something like changing orchestrators, conductors, and entire orchestras. So yes, there is already a difference there, but I guess my desire is to minimize further differences, so that there is a one whole, cohesive, massive work at the end of the day.


(This post was edited by MTRougeau on Oct 19 2013, 2:50pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 19 2013, 2:52pm

Post #25 of 43 (388 views)
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How about ... [In reply to] Can't Post

A flashback to Smaug's past. Totally irrelevant to anything, really, but might be cool to see. I wouldn't mind seeing Smaug hear about the treasure of Erebor, and flying down from the North. Or perhaps something more sinister ... and seeing the Necromancer planting the idea into Smaug's head. WinkShocked

(Perhaps starting to sound too fan-fictiony).


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