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Chapter of the Week: Thorin Oakenshield
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FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 18 2013, 1:44pm

Post #1 of 41 (807 views)
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Chapter of the Week: Thorin Oakenshield Can't Post

Chapter of the Week: Thorin Oakenshield

This is one of my all-time favourite scenes from The Hobbit.


Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
I get excited every time I see the door opening. It’s as if I feel that this is the moment I’ve been waiting for since the dwarves arrived in Bag-End.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?


2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?


I thought it was interesting that it was Gandalf rather than Bilbo or any of the other dwarves who opened the door.
3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?


He says “Gandalf,” with a slight smile and walks in.
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?


”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
I find this incredibly amusing as we have no idea how he had lost his way, but I can imagine that he went (twice) to the wrong door, and had to get other hobbits to point him in the right direction [poor Thorin]! Laugh
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?


6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?


”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”

I thought the confusion on Bilbo’s face was priceless, and the way Gandalf is trying to quickly explain it to him. Laugh
7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?


8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?


”Bilbo Baggins allow me to introduce you to the leader of our company, Thorin Oakenshield.”
Thorin folds his arms and stands in front of Bilbo. “So, this is the hobbit.”

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?” Wink


”Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?


”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?


I love the way Gandalf leans against the arch after Thorin has left the room.
13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?


14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?


Thorin is sitting eating soup.
15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?


The lighting is in this scene is darker in comparison to the previous scene, which seems to me to symbolise the danger within this Quest that they have not even started yet.
16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?


This scene introduces Óin and Glóin’s character, and shows us that they are into prophecies.
When the dwarves stand up and argue, I think, shows that even though they are supposed to be a team, their personalities clash.

17) What are your thoughts on this?


I think that the part that mostly stands out to me is when Dwalin asks Thorin “Is Dain with us?” and he slowly lowers his soup spoon and replies slowly “They will not come. They say this Quest is ours and ours alone.” I found this quite a significant moment as everyone seems quite disappointed, especially Dwalin.
18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?


19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?


I thought the map is very important as it symbolises hope and their fate.
20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?


21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?


I think the way Thorin was able to motivate the dwarves like that shows how influential he is to them.
22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?


23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this?


Gandalf produces the key and explains to the bemused Thorin that Thráin had given it to him. I am surprised Thorin did not question him any further about how exactly he had come across his father.
24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition?


”The answer lies hidden somewhere in this map and I do not have the skills to find it. But, there are others in Middle-Earth who can.”
25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)?


There are moments in the scene, like when Gandalf makes the room grow dark and when he asks Thorin to trust him and even having the map, I think relates the audience to LOTR.
26) Do you like this link to LOTR?


27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in?


”I cannot guarantee his safety.”
“Understood.”
“Nor will I be responsible for his fate.”
“...Agreed.”

I think Thorin says this to Gandalf because even though his says this in a harsh tone, deep down this shows that he is worried about Bilbo.
28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?


”Oh aye, he'll melt the flesh off your bones in the blink of an eye... Think furnace with wings... Flash of light, searing pain and ‘poof’ – you're nothing more than a pile of ash!”
29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?


My favourite quote is Kíli’s "Gandalf will have killed hundreds of dragons in his time" – you underestimate wizards, Kíli! Smile
30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 18 2013, 4:48pm

Post #2 of 41 (420 views)
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I *love* the picture of Thorin at the top! [In reply to] Can't Post

1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?
Thorin Oakenshield’s arrival is truly an enjoyable moment! I agree with you that the audience has been left in suspense about this character through his not arriving with all the other dwarves. When the door opens we encounter a dwarf lord. He has a majestic air of authority about him. His clothing, like the furs, and stance shows that he has risen from poverty and life is not so hard for him anymore. It certainly looks as though he doesn’t need to work as a blacksmith anymore which should be taken as a good sign for the quest that his determination has paid off. Perhaps this holds hope for the quest? His facial expressions in Erebor seemed to suggest innocence, now it is clear in his expression that he is older and wiser.

2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?
Yes, I really like this deviation from the book. It lets the audience reacquaint themselves with this character after getting to meet all the others. It helps Thorin to stand out from the crowd. It also reacquaints the audience with the idea that he is a leader. He is the final and most important piece in the company and pretty much the main reason why the dwarves have all gathered at Bag End.

3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?
Good question. I personally suspect it’s the idea again that Gandalf wants the others and in particular Bilbo to let him do the talking. Wink

It could also be the fact that since Thorin is royalty, he is not going to introduce himself and ‘offer his service’, and as Gandalf has picked Bilbo and knows Thorin it perhaps seemed fitting that Gandalf should introduce them. Gandalf, let’s not forget, is trying to get Thorin to approve of his choice for the final member of the company, so if he opens the door, he can perhaps have a little more control over the situation.


4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?
It is the greeting between people who know each other. I like his smile; it’s warm and slightly amused. I think Thorin is pleased that Gandalf is already there, as this is probably a sign to him that the other members are there and he can ‘get down to business’.


5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?
I honestly have no idea what happened that he managed to lose his way twice, but I thought it was quite a fun line to have in the film and I really liked the way Richard delivered this line. It was quite sweet and I think makes the audience feel a little sympathy towards him. It brings the audience back to the fact that he has lost a great deal in his past because of Smaug and for the reason that we are probably inclined to sympathise with him.

He probably hasn’t ventured much into the Shire although I’m sure it says somewhere in the books that the dwarves of the Blue Mountains would trade with the hobbits. Thorin has probably not had the need to pass through the upper class area of the Shire himself, probably dismissing the hobbits as not being of any real value so when he has to find his way and he comes alone it is small wonder that he got lost. I can imagine he took a wrong turn (twice) and had to ask for directions. Perhaps he found his way to the Green the Dragon and had a meal there? Smile


6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?
It’s a very interesting screencap. Firstly I think it focuses the audience on the three main characters of Thorin, Bilbo and Gandalf because the three of them are arranged in almost a triangle shape. It’s an interesting angle as it almost looks as though it is from the level of a hobbit looking up at Thorin which implies that Thorin is actually the main focus and more the idea that he is going to be the one in control of the next few moments.

The composition is well done in this scene I think. I like the fact that Thorin is the only one who is turned looking into the room and the fact that he is standing in the light with his followers behind him on the right while Bilbo, the wild card, is on the left-hand side of the frame with his back turned to Thorin. I find this significant since the two of them have not yet been introduced and visually this is a good way of showing this.

The fact that Gandalf’s head is turned more towards Thorin in this screencap suggests the idea that he is trying to help and work with Thorin. The fact that he is not looking at either Thorin or Bilbo could be taken as a sign that, although the wizard has done what he can, the two of them have to form a friendship on their own.

I especially like the way that the picture includes the window with the night outside in the darkest part of the room to the left of Bilbo, again a sign, I think of magic and mystery. It is also another hint of Bilbo’s choice between the warm light of his home and the venturing into the unknown.

I like the colours in this scene. The fact that Thorin and Gandalf are clothed in dark colours and Bilbo in light suggests players of a chess board and is a reminder in this scene that Bilbo is ultimately a pawn in Thorin and Gandalf’s plans, especially Gandalf’s. It is also a reminder that Bilbo is still naïve in comparison to the other two. The warm colour of the wood in the candlelight and the cool colours from the window to the world outside help make up the composition as well, by placing these three figures in the between these colour opposites symbolises to me that these three need to unite in order for everything to turn out well. The danger is that they might not.


7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?
I thought Bilbo’s reaction priceless as well under the situation as was Gandalf’s hasty response. Technically this was not a wonderful first impression to give to Thorin although during this exchange between Gandalf and Bilbo Thorin appears to remain indifferent.


8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?
Yes I did. Smile I thought this a nice indication that Kili and Thorin knew each other to those who hadn’t read the book. For those who have read the book it’s a nice reminder that they are related. On the whole it adds to the depth of the scene as this is the sort of thing anyone does when they arrive somewhere where there are people they know. On the whole this makes the characters more believable and I think that’s important for any story/film.


9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?
I like your use of ‘interrogation’ here. Gandalf’s questioning with the hobbit was more mysterious and almost riddle-like which immediately conveyed the impression that Gandalf is quite a mysterious and unusual character. His tone in the Good Morning scene is certainly gentler compared to Thorin’s in this scene. Thorin’s approach is rather different. His questions are very simple, no nonsense which is in keeping with the idea of dwarves having a very straight forward approach. Thorin immediately wants to assert his authority so that no one in Bilbo’s house can question him as their leader. His question ‘Have you done much fighting?’ is plain and simple and it’s about the one thing he really needs to know. If Bilbo doesn’t have the necessary skills then Thorin will immediately start to think he is wasting his time. I like the way Thorin circles around Bilbo as well. It makes Bilbo feel uncomfortable and again puts Thorin in control.


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?” Wink
Good question. I would have to say of the two, I think I’d prefer a sword.


11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?
Yes, I think this could be a possibility. Under the circumstances, I think Bilbo is unsure of what to do or how to react to Thorin’s questions. For Bilbo these are probably ridiculous questions to just suddenly be asked out of the blue like that and since the other dwarves had been messing with him in the previous scene, I think that he immediately assumed he could respond with a humorous remark like that. When he realises Thorin is being serious, I like the way his voice loses the confidence it had at the start.

The only other thing that springs to mind is that Bilbo thought it was a good answer under the circumstances and realised as he was saying it that it didn’t sound as good as he thought it would.


12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?
Yes, definitely. I always like it when they include lines straight from the book. It helps the audience relate to the fact that this film is based on Tolkien’s book. This is his style of writing and language.

The fact that Thorin said this line is not a problem to me. It helps him to put Bilbo down and is in a way putting Gandalf down as it is a criticism of his choice of final member of the company. It helps Thorin feel he is in control since deep down he must be feeling insecure about the situation. The fact that Gandalf feels that the Hobbit will help them succeed and the enormity of the quest he is about to undertake is probably overwhelming and the scene allows this line to help him settle into the situation.


13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?
That certainly for him it is going to be a long night. He obviously realises this first meeting between Bilbo and Thorin didn’t end on a very promising note and it will take a lot of convincing before Thorin will believe in Gandalf’s choice.


14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?
I liked everything. I particularly liked the facial expressions. Thorin’s just after the door opens, his smile to Kili and the way he looks Bilbo up and down just after Gandalf introduces them. Gandalf’s worried and uncertain expression in the background as Bilbo says he has some skill at conkers is priceless as his exasperated look after Thorin wanders further into Bag End.

I think if I was to quote one line/moment I would quote Thorin’s line when he says ‘So. This is the Hobbit’. I like this because he says the title of the novel which stays consistent with the way the titles of the books/films in LOTR were mentioned at least once.


15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?
It is a meagre meal. It’s certainly more civilised then when the other dwarves were having theirs. Perhaps when he had lost his way he’d found the Green Dragon and had had a meal there?


16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?

Quote
We like the dark,’ said all the dwarves. ‘Dark for dark business!

I think the film makers were trying to capture this line from the book. The room is dark, certainly darker than when the dwarves were having dinner. ‘Dark business’ is evidently the Quest and I agree that the lighting could represent this. Also the fact that the dwarves are used to the dark from living in the mountains and mining so immediately it shows how Bilbo’s home is being taken over by the dwarves. The fact that Bag End is becoming more dwarf like suggests the fact that Bilbo has stopped fighting and just accepted the situation that there are all these dwarves in the house.


17) What are your thoughts on this?
This scene completes the basic characterisation of each of the dwarves. Oin and Gloin are really the only characters left for the audience to remember. I think the fact that they are into prophecies is interesting and distinctive for the audience. The books that go with AUJ tell us Oin is interested in remedies and this is an extension of this.

The fact that the dwarves argue shows, I think that, although they can work together as seen in the previous scene with ‘Blunt the Knives’, they are still all individuals with their own voices and opinions. A large group of them like that means there is bound to be one or two people who will disagree. It again helps to make the characters more believable as people can relate to working with people in a group and find they don’t get on with all the members. For the viewers point of view it also adds to the humour that is throughout the film.

It is perhaps a hint that not all the dwarves are going to agree on something which takes place later on in the story since this is, in my opinion, a rather petty argument that sprung from almost nothing. It could be taken as a warning of what might happen in a more serious situation.


18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?
I agree. So much happens in this scene through facial expressions. The moment you have pointed out with Dwalin is a good one. It shows, I think, the friendship that Dwalin and Thorin have. His disappointment seems to be a little deeper than the others. He seems to understand just how important this quest is for Thorin.

When Oin and Gloin start talking about ravens the faces of the other dwarves can either be read that they have heard this kind of thing before and it’s the ‘here we go again’ type of reaction, or that they simply don’t hold the same sort of belief in the prophecies.

When Thorin speaks about others assessing the risks of undertaking a quest themselves to the mountain, I like the way the camera drifts around the dwarves. I also like how Gandalf looks around the room as if he too is assessing each member of the company and whether they will heed the words.

When Gandalf says Bilbo has ‘a great deal more to offer than any of you know, including himself,’ I really like the way the camera focuses on Balin and Bofur and their expressions. It’s almost as though they truly believe in Gandalf’s words and I like how they chose to focus on them here because these two characters are the two who really start to form a friendship with Bilbo.


19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?
Yes. It’s a good way to engage the audience in the scene by using Bilbo’s naïveté.


20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?
I thought the map was significant as all their hopes on achieving their quest rely on being able to use the map. Placing the map in front of Thorin is symbolic of this, I think, and a sign to represent that they are a step closer to their goal by the fact that this map is now in the dwarves’ possession. The same could be said when Gandalf presents Thorin with the key.


21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?
I would say that it is probably a bit of both. I would like to think Thorin heard Bilbo since Bilbo is standing right behind him and took pity on him since the dwarves are causing a bit of chaos in his house, and I think by now Thorin understands that Bilbo was not really aware of the details of the quest or was fully committed to joining them. Thorin probably pities the fact that Bilbo is trying to be authoritative and not managing to be heard since he is too quiet and polite for this kind of situation.

Thorin will also want to show the dwarves that he is the leader. The way he stands up and yells silence in my opinion proves this. The other dwarves obviously respect him and stop arguing in an instant to listen to him.


22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?
I found his speech very interesting to listen to. I was certainly drawn in by his words. The fact that he says that others might have read the signs creates suspense as what he says is probably true and it makes the audience wonder who else might want to try their hand to get the gold. It makes the viewers wonder if it will end up being a race as to who will get there first. The fact that the dragon hasn’t been seen for years gives a small hint of hope to their quest. The dark lighting in the room lit by a few candles added to the danger and hope of his words. It was definitely the words of a leader trying to motivate his people and rally them to the cause. His speech was one that told the audience how important and determined Thorin was to go on this quest and succeed. His speech made the quest sound a wonderful thing to do.


23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this?
After being lured in to the idea that the quest is going to be a great adventure, Balin gives the dwarves and the audience a reason to pause and realise that there are elements about the quest which makes it not all glorious. This is the practical side of the situation after Thorin’s fanciful speech. I liked the way this was done.


24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition?
It would be nice if they did. It has been mentioned recently that there are additional lines in Bag End so it’s always possible. There could also potentially be something about it in DOS.


25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)?
Having read the book, I felt pretty sure of whom he meant. For those who hadn’t it probably added to the mysteriousness of the map and gave them pause to wonder who he could mean.


26) Do you like this link to LOTR?
I always like any links to LOTR. It adds a little depth to the scene. I thought it was interesting that Gandalf asks Thorin to trust him. Ultimately that is what a lot of this scene is about; getting each person to trust the other as well as themselves. Thorin needs to be able to trust his companions and in particular, Bilbo for the quest to be successful and to do this he needs to trust Gandalf’s confidence.


27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in?
I think visually it adds to the humour of the film. I like the fact that they have written and re written, scored things off and sown paper onto the main part. They obviously want to make certain Bilbo knows what he is letting himself in for.


28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?
I agree with that statement. I think that Thorin is trying to remain in appearance as uncaring towards Bilbo, but deep down I think he does care. It’s just this way Thorin is trying to make sure he will not feel so guilty if something does happen to Bilbo. He is shifting some of the burden of taking Bilbo with them onto Gandalf so that if something happens to him it is Gandalf who will feel the responsibility.


29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?
I think it’s a bit of both and I don’t think he fully realised how much he was scaring Bilbo by saying these things.


30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?
I like that quote from Kili too.

I like Gandalf’s line when he says Bilbo “has a great deal more to offer than any of you know, including himself.”

When Thorin does his speech, I thought the way Richard delivered the lines was very well done.

“He said he’s an expert! Hey! Hey!” I always find that line quite sweet.

“Very helpful, Bofur.” I enjoy the sarcasm behind the line.


Great discussion! Wink
I love the images you chose!
Thanks MorningStar.

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Old Toby
Gondor


Oct 18 2013, 6:52pm

Post #3 of 41 (354 views)
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Ah, a subject dear to my heart! [In reply to] Can't Post

My, so many questions! But okay, so here I go:

1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?
He was interesting to me even in the prologue, but it wasn't until this very moment in the film that I was thunderstruck by him. I mean,talk about an entrance! (fans self!) My impressions: majestic, regal bearing, intense eyes, judgmental, confident, charismatic, manly, handsome, and has the best hair I've ever seen.

2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?
Yes, as he has a chance to make a grand entrance, with everyone waiting for him. And it showed another facet of his personality: he has a really bad sense of direction.

3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?
Well, even though it was Bilbo's house, it was only right that Gandalf should open the door, seeing as how he knew already who it was and he could then introduce Bilbo in his own fashion.

4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?
It seems he has a great deal of respect for Gandalf's judgments and opinions, although he disagrees many times, he still goes along with Gandalf against his own feelings.

5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?
Men just don't like to ask for directions. I think it's in their DNA.

6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?
I thought it was great, seeing him smile at Kili who is off-camera. I wondered who he was smiling at until Kili walked into the picture subsequently.

7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?
I don't think he had much of a reaction, since it was no longer there. Perhaps he was a bit annoyed at Gandalf for putting it there in the first place.

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?
Oh I most certainly noticed Thorin's smile! But I don't think there's any hint that they are related so far.

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?
I think Thorin already had preconceptions of what he would find in his burglar-to-be, and threw him a question which he knew Bilbo would not answer to their liking. Stacking the deck against him already.

10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?”
Definitely sword!

11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?
I never got the impression this was a flippant reply on Bilbo's part, but a serious one.

12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?
Yes, absolutely! It fit right in with the scene, and just showed Thorin's disdain for the hobbit the more.

13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?
It seems he wasn't looking forward to the first meeting of Bilbo and Thorin. He probably already knew how Thorin would react, and was dreading the encounter. He probably was relieved it didn't go worse than it did.

14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?
I'm assuming you mean the scene in the pic you have here. I love the layout, etc. I especially liked how it showed Thorin eating in a very well-mannered way compared to the rest of the dwarves. It showed in a understated way how his is different from them in station and bearing.

15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?
Yeah, meagre is an understatement. Seeing how all the dwarves eat, I would say this bowl of soup isn't even an appetizer! But probably not much was left after the others got through with their supper!

16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?
I love the candlelit look to all of this. Makes the atmosphere more intense and secretive.

17) What are your thoughts on this?
18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?
I think these two questions belong together. It's a lovely scene because it shows the disagreements amongst the dwarves, which in turn just emphasizes their individuality. And their arguing loudly is so....dwarvish! They're quite an emotional bunch. It's funny, when Thorin says about Dain's group that they won't come, I always watch Ori's little reaction.

19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?
20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?
Again, I'm combining both questions. I thought this was very well done, and served to explain both to Bilbo and to the audience what the quest was all about in a way that was engaging and interesting. The map is especially important since it gives them the reason for seeking Elrond's help to read the runes. And, we as fans, have been expecting to see this map!

21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?
Seems to me that Thorin didn't see the point in all the arguing, especially when he had another point to make: namely, that others would be also interested in going to the Mountain, hence the need for speed and secrecy.

22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?
Yup, he can certainly rally the troops! Dûbekar!

Oh dear, I'm running out of time. I'll have to finish later! Hi ho hi ho! Tongue







"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Avandel
Valinor

Oct 18 2013, 7:05pm

Post #4 of 41 (350 views)
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re scene thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
I get excited every time I see the door opening. It’s as if I feel that this is the moment I’ve been waiting for since the dwarves arrived in Bag-End.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?
Yo, here’s the LEADER, definitely! He’s aged, fought, and fought more, experienced, he’s become something epic and IS the King of Erebor, whether living on the road or exiled. It’s like some dark force (but not in a bad way, more like a thunderstorm) came in from the night and just dominates the room by his presence. Any innocence is gone replaced by the years of survival and fighting. Majestic!!!!! And oh, the voice.......

2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?

Yes, and he’s the only one who doesn’t ring – even the door banging sounds imperious (tho personally I think he is fed up at getting lost, having to get directions from perky hobbits, is tired and irate after his meeting with the other dwarves, and just kicks the door).


3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?
Because Gandalf knows who it is and is “working things” in that Thorin is both imperious, won’t be intimidated by Gandalf, and Thorin already is finding all this dubious. Gandalf is certainly laying on the good manners. Thorin is humoring Gandalf but he’s on edge, wouldn’t take much for Thorin to go the opposite direction and say “forget this.”

He says “Gandalf,” with a slight smile and walks in.
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?
What I would expect between a meeting of equals, or that is how the no-nonsense Thorin views Gandalf – someone he respects but at the same time finds questionable, especially (probably) setting up a meeting at the home of a hobbit, and bringing on a hobbit burglar.
Exactly the expression I would expect given the circumstances – e.g. I’m humoring you with all this BS, Gandalf…….


”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?
From the looks of the pastoral Hobbiton, with the cozy homes built into the rolling hills – and the fact that hobbits like it peaceful and haven’t built to encourage random folks wandering through – it’s probably really easy to lose your way in Hobbiton, with all the “random” winding lanes – especially in the dark. Probably little signage too, since this looks like a village – and the dwarves seem to favor order and use a lot of straight lines, they would probably never build a village like Hobbiton. Think Gandalf gave directions to Thorin, but he probably wandered up into the wrong lane, or ended up at the wrong hobbit-hole, and perhaps had to put up with some perky hobbit giving even more incomprehensible directions – in the dark, too.

6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?


”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”



7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?
I’ll answer 6,7, and 8 together – this is all great as the King, not in the best of moods has just walked in, Bilbo is fed up with all the wreckage and is about to go off about the “damage” to his door (which Thorin most likely would not be interested in, and worse, might get irate himself over something so “stupid” from what is a “peasant” to him really, and not even a dwarf at that), and there’s Gandalf in the middle pouring oil on the waters and tamping Bilbo down before he gets going. All perfectly done – and do think the smile Thorin gives Kili hints at a “special” relationship (as does the smile Thorin gives Kili later at the table) e.g. this is someone Thorin knows very well, and is particularly fond of.

”Bilbo Baggins allow me to introduce you to the leader of our company, Thorin Oakenshield.”
Thorin folds his arms and stands in front of Bilbo. “So, this is the hobbit.”

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?
Think Thorin is already completely unenthused by the idea of someone from a different race joining DWARVES, and Thorin has little to no reason to like other races – besides elves, think he and his people have received little support in their years of wandering and rebuilding. Plus, he’s confronted with a sort of prissy Englishman hobbit wearing a nightshirt and suspenders. The scene shows Thorin sizing Bilbo up and cynical amusement – Bilbo’s appearance is just confirming what Thorin already thinks. To Thorin, after seeing Bilbo, think Bilbo can already be written off as of no consequence whatsoever.


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?”


”Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?
Don’t think Bilbo is being funny at all here, think he is fed up, finds the question offensive (a wee bit of testosterone between the two here), and is being cheeky, but it slowly sinks in that perhaps being cheeky isn’t the best idea with THIS well-armed, tough dwarf – Bilbo is standing up to Thorin but he’s nervous, by the end. Which visually I think Thorin takes in, and is dismissive of Bilbo "looks more like a grocer than a burglar......"


”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?
Memory of the book is hazy, don’t remember this from the book. But it fits in the movie giving it to Thorin and breaks the scene nicely so Thorin can turn and walk in – totally works here and suits the character.


I love the way Gandalf leans against the arch after Thorin has left the room.
13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?
Don’t think Gandalf looks exasperated, think he is relieved Thorin hasn’t lost his temper and will walk in and sit down – the first hurdle is over, especially after Thorin sees Bilbo for the first time – at least Gandalf’s plans are still working, so far.


14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?
Think the arrival of Thorin is a pivotal moment, and it’s perfectly done – he walks in majestically, his clothes are striking (always strikes me when Thorin has his back turned the low light gleaming on the studding of the tunic, the mane of hair, the black vambraces, this broad-shouldered pelt) and then when we get a full frontal view there’s just this PRESENCE and this VOICE and these EYES full of intelligence and command; it’s as though Thorin is too big of a presence for the space to hold). And exasperated little Bilbo facing all this, not even comprehending it all, or who this is, just being a hobbit!
The dialogue and performances are just perfect. (OK, I’ve been known to hit the replay button on that scene, but that happens a lot with my AUJ Blu-ray…..)Thorin is sitting eating soup.

15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?
No, think he is upset and tired, and probably doesn’t feel like eating much – plus there is bread and other stuff on the table if he wants it.

The lighting is in this scene is darker in comparison to the previous scene, which seems to me to symbolise the danger within this Quest that they have not even started yet.
16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?
Oh, yes, and kind of mirrors what I remember of the book – something about darkness for planning – can’t remember the exact lines.

This scene introduces Óin and Glóin’s character, and shows us that they are into prophecies.
When the dwarves stand up and argue, I think, shows that even though they are supposed to be a team, their personalities clash.

17) What are your thoughts on this?
It’s cool we see there is a closeness there, even if it is not spelled out. And think this shows dwarves being dwarves, rowdy, fierce, bickering among themselves – it’s fun, really!


I think that the part that mostly stands out to me is when Dwalin asks Thorin “Is Dain with us?” and he slowly lowers his soup spoon and replies slowly “They will not come. They say this Quest is ours and ours alone.” I found this quite a significant moment as everyone seems quite disappointed, especially Dwalin.
18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?
Dwalin expression perfect – someone who empathizes with Thorin but like Thorin is no fool, and they both know that the refusal is something that could happen, as opposed to the other dwarves who fuss more about it. Both Thorin and Dwalin seem to have “been around the block” more with this kind of thing as warriors who have dealt with allies, and refusals to be allies, as well.

19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?
Like it very much, and think all these Bag End scenes flow beautifully.

20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?
Very, in that we learn a little later that Bilbo has “books and maps” so in that sense think Bilbo is instantly intrigued by the map – think it’s the beginning of his awakening to the desire for adventure, even tho he doesn’t know it yet. Also lays a kind of visual framework for both the dwarves and the audience – and, it’s an old artifact of Erebor and therefore a symbol in its own right.

21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?
Think Thorin was paying no attention to Bilbo whatsoever, and Thorin being already stressed, just put his foot down, basically, but also “fed the fire” of the other dwarves.
22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?
Jaw dropped. Holy *bleep!!!!* *This is a GOD*. OMG – that voice. Froze in wonder. Kept thinking I’d crawl over broken glass for “this guy”. Jes*&^. How could the dwarves of the 7 kingdoms NOT go along with THIS dwarf? (OK, I still hit the replay button on the speech!)

23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this?
It’s a perfect Balin moment, and makes sense that there would have been a catch in getting into the mountain, especially after the dragon has been trashing things – including the main door.

24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition?
No, think it MIGHT show up in DOS. But either way it would be good to see him acquire the key – not critical as Gandalf explains he got the key from Thrain, but think we all would like to see how and when.

”The answer lies hidden somewhere in this map and I do not have the skills to find it. But, there are others in Middle-Earth who can.”
25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)?

Can’t remember the book enough – but for me that could have been anyone at that point – Saruman, elves, Beorn, or some other denizen of Middle Earth like a village “wise woman” even.


26) Do you like this link to LOTR?
*Shrugs* not as concerned as linking to LOTR as others, or even PJ, not sure I have much of an opinion here.

27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in?
Yes, I love the long contract, and it’s a lot of fun to pick through (have a copy in the WETA book). And the long contract with the tacked –in additions is whimsical and fun!)


”I cannot guarantee his safety.”
“Understood.”
“Nor will I be responsible for his fate.”
“...Agreed.”

I think Thorin says this to Gandalf because even though his says this in a harsh tone, deep down this shows that he is worried about Bilbo.
28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?

Think Thorin is a decent, even noble “guy” BUT he is also driven and furious – so he’ll go along with Gandalf, but letting Gandalf know straight up there’s not going to be any mercy for Bilbo re the quest, e.g. like POTC if a man falls behind, he’s left behind. And if Bilbo falls, it’s on Gandalf’s head. But Thorin’s also angry because inherently he would not let harm fall to anyone in his “company” because that’s how good leaders are – see this later when Thorin saves Bilbo (in spite of what Thorin says at Bag End).


”Oh aye, he'll melt the flesh off your bones in the blink of an eye... Think furnace with wings... Flash of light, searing pain and ‘poof’ – you're nothing more than a pile of ash!”
29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?

Think Bofur was just being cheerfully, dwarfishly, insensitive, which is what makes this funny – he’s puzzled when Bilbo passes out!


My favourite quote is Kíli’s "Gandalf will have killed hundreds of dragons in his time" – you underestimate wizards, Kíli!

30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?

Am not quite sure what you mean here? So much of the sequence from Thorin entering to Bilbo passing out is etched in my head. It’s all so perfect, IMO. Some things that stick out for me: Thorin dominating the table even in silence, and the speech, and his look of vulnerability at seeing the key, and the fierce coldness when he warns Gandalf about Bilbo; how perfectly MF plays Bilbo (even the way he uses his hands) and his ability to show anxious vulnerability when he starts protesting and then reading the contract and getting faint, the way Gandalf says “Far to the east, over ranges, and rivers, lies a single solitary peak” and when he is talking about Bilbo “He has more to offer than any of you know, including himself”; Balin, Bofur, and Gloin watching Bilbo; Kili’s youthful lively exuberance and obvious relationship with Fili.
Hmmm – time to watch AUJ again, LOL!!!


Avandel
Valinor

Oct 18 2013, 8:23pm

Post #5 of 41 (321 views)
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Lion's mane..... [In reply to] Can't Post

"has the best hair I've ever seen."

Just had to COMPLETELY agree here - that streaked espresso cloud with those intriguing dwarf clips at the back. And I'll add for me as well spectacular eyes - think happily PJ is shamelessly taking full advantage of the fact that RA/Thorin's eyes to me look luminous at times - when speaking with Balin, the moon rune scene, at the Carrock. (Often think, geez, the camera loves this face). RA had commented something to the effect of PJ giving him plenty of "face time" as though he were surprised, but personally think when PJ started filming (plus experience) he knew what he had hired and how to film it to full advantage (pine tree scene). Must have made PJ happy. (All of that of course backed by an incredible performance by RA).

And sad but true, in trailer 2 there's that terrible scene of Thorin holding a sword to Bilbo, which hurts me to see. And *shamefully* the more primitive part of my brain can only register all that fierce beauty - PJ, you are making my brain hurt!!! I'm supposed to be feeling for poor Bilbo (and I do) but at the same time I'm staring in wonder.....someday I'd like to ask PJ if he knew he was driving at least some of the audience mad.




Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 18 2013, 10:20pm

Post #6 of 41 (293 views)
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Too tired to respond to the OPs very long post at the mo. [In reply to] Can't Post

However, knowing what is to come re. Bilbo's behaviour (at least according to the book), I must just say I sympathise with Thorin…and he looks terrific there in that trailer.


In Reply To
And sad but true, in trailer 2 there's that terrible scene of Thorin holding a sword to Bilbo, which hurts me to see. And *shamefully* the more primitive part of my brain can only register all that fierce beauty - PJ, you are making my brain hurt!!! I'm supposed to be feeling for poor Bilbo (and I do) but at the same time I'm staring in wonder.....someday I'd like to ask PJ if he knew he was driving at least some of the audience mad.



Queen of Erebor
Lorien


Oct 18 2013, 10:55pm

Post #7 of 41 (306 views)
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This one I may have to split in half, since this could take a while... [In reply to] Can't Post

especially since you're discussing my favorite subject...Wink

Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
I get excited every time I see the door opening. It’s as if I feel that this is the moment I’ve been waiting for since the dwarves arrived in Bag-End.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now? I get nervous just before this scene. I don't know why, especially since it's not Thorin's first appearance. Maybe it's just that look. Then again, I always get nervous the first time my favorite character appears on the screen, the only reason it's questioning this time around is that it's not the first appearance, though it is the first appearance of the older Thorin.

2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?

I think it's fitting, even if it was a divergence from the book. The book entrance wasn't befitting of a King, so I'm glad that they changed it around a bit in the movie version to give Thorin a more dignified entrance. Dwalin did say that he had to attend a meeting first, so that would make anyone late (depending on how long the meeting is).

I thought it was interesting that it was Gandalf rather than Bilbo or any of the other dwarves who opened the door.
3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?

Perhaps to show the audience that Thorin respects Gandalf (even though he may not always agree with him) more than Bilbo. I'm not sure what Thorin's reaction would be if Bilbo opened the door instead of Gandalf. Also, Gandalf may have been the one who gave Thorin directions to Bag End, so the filmmakers may have wanted to play around with this a bit, perhaps a confrontation of some sort.

He says “Gandalf,” with a slight smile and walks in.
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?

Like I mentioned before, I think he respects Gandalf (even if he doesn't always agree with him). After all, wasn't it Gandalf that suggested Bilbo as the burglar (whether he's a good one or not) and fourteenth member of the company, even if Thorin doesn't agree that he may be right for the task at hand?

”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
I find this incredibly amusing as we have no idea how he had lost his way, but I can imagine that he went (twice) to the wrong door, and had to get other hobbits to point him in the right direction [poor Thorin]! Laugh
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End? If you don't know the area, it's quite easy to lose one's way, and if Gandalf was the one that gave him directions in the first place, who knows how he may have interpreted them. After all, there may be more than one large tree on a hill somewhere else in Hobbiton, so how do you know it's the right tree?



6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?
I like it, since you seem to only focus your attention on Thorin, Bilbo and Gandalf, which was probably the intention in the first place, since these are the only characters actually having a conversation.

”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”

I thought the confusion on Bilbo’s face was priceless, and the way Gandalf is trying to quickly explain it to him. Laugh
7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door? What did he think Gandalf was doing outside when he heard a scrape on the door, but since he was too afraid to investigate, he probably didn't know what was going on. Perhaps Gandalf was just checking up on him, perhaps?

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?
I know he was smiling at somebody, but I wasn't sure who it was directed at. Gandalf probably told Thorin that he would leave a mark, so when Bilbo denied it, it may have seemed humorous to Thorin and the other dwarves that Bilbo wasn't aware of it.

”Bilbo Baggins allow me to introduce you to the leader of our company, Thorin Oakenshield.”
Thorin folds his arms and stands in front of Bilbo. “So, this is the hobbit.”

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)? I'm not sure what Thorin thinks of him at first. He may not think that Bilbo is the right person for this kind of important mission. After all, would you trust someone that's a little on the humble side for a dangerous quest? Especially if they seem to be more comfortable at home than out there in the world.

10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?” Wink
”Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?

I don't think Bilbo thought that Thorin was being serious at first, but when he realizes that he is, he finds it hard to respond, since he doesn't have that much experience in any kind of battle situation.

”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?

The filmmakers are always giving the lines from one character and giving it to another. Perhaps they thought that it would be more appropriate for Thorin to say it, since he is the leader of the company.

I love the way Gandalf leans against the arch after Thorin has left the room.
13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?

Maybe he was a little nervous about the confrontation between Thorin and Bilbo, and perhaps he was glad that it went as well as it did, since it could have been worse (as we'll see later on in future movies).

14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?



Thorin is sitting eating soup.
15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?

I would say so, since there probably wasn't either enough time to make him anything else, or after the singing scene with the dishes, Gandalf didn't want a repeat occurence (not that the other dwarves would have acted that humorous in Thorin's presence. I certainly wouldn't have).

The lighting is in this scene is darker in comparison to the previous scene, which seems to me to symbolise the danger within this Quest that they have not even started yet.
16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?

I'd say so, since it sets the mood. You're not going to have cheery lighting for learning about a dangerous dragon that has taken over one's kingdom. Especially when Bofur explains what Smaug might do to Bilbo. Would you want cheery lighting after learning about that?

This scene introduces Óin and Glóin’s character, and shows us that they are into prophecies.
When the dwarves stand up and argue, I think, shows that even though they are supposed to be a team, their personalities clash.

17) What are your thoughts on this? Even brothers don't always agree on everything, so I think this scene shows that there are clashes even within the company, much like there was clashes within the Fellowship in LotR. Not everybody's going to agree with everyone's opinion or like the way they handled a certain situation.

Looks like I'm running a little low on time, so I'll complete this tomorrow. I got farther than I thought.Smile

Far over the Misty Mountains cold
To dungeons deep and caverns old
We must away, ere break of day
To find our long-forgotten gold.





(This post was edited by Queen of Erebor on Oct 18 2013, 11:01pm)


thomasofrohan
Lorien

Oct 18 2013, 11:00pm

Post #8 of 41 (320 views)
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You forgot the best Thorin screencap of them all [In reply to] Can't Post

http://i2.wp.com/...eencaps.com-7926.jpg

Smile


Avandel
Valinor

Oct 18 2013, 11:08pm

Post #9 of 41 (285 views)
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on Thorin's side..... [In reply to] Can't Post

know the book well enough re Thorin/Bilbo - well, that's another thread, but it's probably the biggest issue I have and would have liked to talk to Tolkien about - there are others. In any event, book and movie, I'm on Thorin and dwarves's side. Re the trailer *shrugs* SOMETHING leads up to that interaction. But who knows what Tolkien would have done with these characters, if he had lived? So appreciate PJ seeming so far to take something of a balanced, sympathetic approach so far anyway.

On a more *cough* basic level, swear Thorin is looking, well, even more stunning in the DOS shots, which is a little odd since thought a lot of stuff was filmed at the same time - but maybe as filming went along the make-up department and camera people just got better and better at what they do, as they got more used to working with the characters.


Avandel
Valinor

Oct 18 2013, 11:10pm

Post #10 of 41 (290 views)
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awwww *melting* [In reply to] Can't Post

awesome - a little bit of what Thorin might have been more like if not so burdened - thank you (:


Kim
Valinor


Oct 18 2013, 11:19pm

Post #11 of 41 (293 views)
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Finally! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been waiting to discuss this chapter for weeks!

When in the theater watching AUJ for the first time, right after the knock at the door at the end of the previous scene, my friend whispered to me “now which dwarf is the one you like?” (she knew I’m an RA fan) and I whispered back “he’s the one knocking at the door”. I was so excited for his entrance the first time I saw this movie, and love it every time I see it (hence, my avatar). Laugh

Now, for your questions:
Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?
Yay! He’s here! And yum! Young Thorin in the prologue didn’t quite do it for me, so this was the moment I’d been waiting for. EvilHeart

And herein begins the Thorin’s Hair Analysis, to be continued throughout the rest of these threads: his hair looks fantastic in this opening shot—perfectly coiffed.


2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?
I like that he arrives separately from all the other dwarves (and especially that he’s not at the bottom of the pile that falls through the door as in the book—that would be very unmajestic).

3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?
Hmmm, not sure, other than Gandalf was the one who initially set all this up with Thorin in the first place.

He says “Gandalf,” with a slight smile and walks in.
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?
Again, yum. Loved this little smile.

”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?
Well, you know, all little hobbit holes look alike, at least to a dwarf.

6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?
Looks great to me!

”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”

7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?
I thought it was interesting that they actually mentioned it, vs in the book, where it was never pointed out to Bilbo.

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?
Couldn’t say, I was just too blinded by the smile to notice!
Side note: when both Dwalin and Thorin enter Bag End, they both pull off rather heavy traveling cloaks. Then, we never see these cloaks again! I thought that was kind of funny.
Also, Thorin’s Hair looks awesome as he pulls the cloak off, swinging nicely with the movement of the cloak.


”Bilbo Baggins allow me to introduce you to the leader of our company, Thorin Oakenshield.”
Thorin folds his arms and stands in front of Bilbo. “So, this is the hobbit.”

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?
Excellent. Loved the twinkle in Thorin’s eye, but then he got more serious and intimidating from Bilbo’s point of view.


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?”
Seems like Thorin was trying to intimidate our little Hobbit, especially as he’s marching around Bilbo with his arms crossed (hair still looks great, flowing across his shoulders).

”Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?
Yes, it was funny, but I like how he quickly realized the joke did not go over well, and pulled himself up to his full height to better stand up to Thorin. I’d never heard of conkers before, so I didn’t fully appreciate that this was a children’s game and how that would have come across initially.


”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?
I think it fit in perfectly here, and yes, I like that they gave it to Thorin.


13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?
He wasn’t too sure what Thorin’s reaction would be, but the first round seemed to go ok.

14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?
When the door first opened, all I could do was stare at Thorin (and his hair). His presence filled the room.

Thorin is sitting eating soup.
15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?
Actually yes, poor Thorin just gets the leftovers. But on the plus side, his hair looks great throughout this scene.

16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?
Yes, it helped set the mood for the serious discussion to follow.


17) What are your thoughts on this?
It was kind of interesting to see the other dwarves reactions to the mention of the portents, especially Dori rolling his eyes.

I think the bit with Dain was really significant. Up to this point, the dwarves were assuming they’d be part of a much larger force, and this was the first time they had to realize that it was just going to be them, which made the coming adventure a much bigger deal.

18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?
I love how we get equal time viewing all the dwarves around the table and their various reactions as the discussion progresses. I think my favorite was Oin’s “he said he’s an expert!” as a little bit of levity in the middle of the serious conversation.

19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?
I was still a little frustrated on Bilbo’s behalf that no one was really explaining to him why they were there, he had to pick up on it as the discussion slowly brought out some details.

20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?
Definitely a big deal, it’s the first tangible part of the quest the dwarves have encountered.

21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?
I think Thorin just decided to take charge and bring the dwarves in line. Doubt he was even paying attention to Bilbo.


22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?
I loved how he jumped up and took charge of the group, rallying them to follow him.

23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this?
I love someone else’s comment on this in a previous thread “Balin, you’re harshing my Du Bekar buzz”.

24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition?
I would really like that. I too found it odd that Thorin didn’t pepper Gandalf with questions about when and how he got the key, when did he see Thrain, etc.

”The answer lies hidden somewhere in this map and I do not have the skills to find it. But, there are others in Middle-Earth who can.”
25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)?
I wasn’t thinking of anyone specifically at this point (even though I’d just re-read the book, I guess that part didn’t stick).

26) Do you like this link to LOTR?
I actually didn’t like the bit where Gandalf made the room dark, it was a little too much of a callback to LOTR for me.

27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in?
Yeah, I thought that was pretty funny, and a great visual, especially the foldout part.

”I cannot guarantee his safety.”
“Understood.”
“Nor will I be responsible for his fate.”
“...Agreed.”

28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?
I think Thorin actually meant this, he never really wanted to take a Hobbit with them in the first place, and wants to make his point clear to Gandalf. Of course, every time I watch this scene and think ahead to TABA, it gets more poignant.

”Oh aye, he'll melt the flesh off your bones in the blink of an eye... Think furnace with wings... Flash of light, searing pain and ‘poof’ – you're nothing more than a pile of ash!”
29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?
Definitely trying to wind him up, which I think is kind of Bofur’s default setting—always joking around.

30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?

“Gandalf!” Honestly, the first time watching this scene, I had a hard time following any of the conversation after this point!

Thanks for the detailed post FaramirAndEowynMorningStar! I’m really glad they spent so much time and attention on this scene (and of course, that we got to spend so much time looking at Thorin!) TongueEvil


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 8:45am

Post #12 of 41 (247 views)
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I knew you'd find your way here! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your eagerness for this CHOW really makes me smile (especially about his hair) Wink
Thanks for brightening up my day with your excellent answers! Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 9:02am

Post #13 of 41 (243 views)
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Why, thank you, Silwen! [In reply to] Can't Post

You have really good detailed answers there. Thanks for taking your time to answer (and being the first to post them). Wink
Great analysis of the screencap - I like your idea of the chessboard and that Bilbo is a pawn in their dangerous "game" and the idea of the window symbolising mystery and majic as it is on the left (and symbolising the choice Bilbo has to make).

I was wondering if anyone would pick up on how they use the title from the book into someone's speech.
e.g. Thorin: "So, this is the Hobbit."
Elrond: "You shall be the Fellowship of the Ring."
Saruman: "The union of the Two Towers."
Gandalf: "Authority is not given to you to deny the Return of the King."
Well spotted!

You're welcome, Silwen, but I would like to thank you for always answering questions with amazing answers - some even I never thought of.

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 19 2013, 9:09am

Post #14 of 41 (254 views)
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I'm really pleased you chose this screencap ... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?




It doesn't seem all that long ago when we all thought The Hobbit would never make it onto film. And here we are now. It's quite surreal seeing all 13 Dwarves sitting round the table, each of them so interesting and different. Quite brilliant, really.



FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 9:15am

Post #15 of 41 (237 views)
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Great analysis so far, Queen of Erebor! [In reply to] Can't Post

Look forward to the rest of it. Smile

I did notice his smile too but at first I thought he was smiling because of how flustered Bilbo was. The second time I saw it I realised then that he was smiling at Kíli.

By the way, I love your avatar - my favourite part from the trailer (hence the reason why I have it as a background image for my tumblr)! Heart

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 9:44am

Post #16 of 41 (233 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post

Back in 2011, I was saying to my sister, "Peter Jackson should consider making The Hobbit as a film." and she agreed (and we were hoping it would be at least one film and we were quite happy when they announced were going to make two films but then, when we heard that he was making three films, weren't sure but we went with it anyway). I for one was just thrilled that he was making The Hobbit anyway.

I think at last, we understand one another, Peter Jackson. (Sorry, had to use Faramir's line there)
I now know why he divided it into three films, because he has so much content! Laugh

I'm still thrilled that he was able to make The Hobbit films (and that we're able to make a CHOW out of it Wink). You can really tell who the Thorin Oakenshield fans are when they post here! Sly

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Noria
Rohan

Oct 19 2013, 3:09pm

Post #17 of 41 (219 views)
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This is part of my favourite section of the movie, which includes the scenes from "Good Morning" to Bilbo running out the door to join the quest [In reply to] Can't Post


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Chapter of the Week: Thorin Oakenshield

This is one of my all-time favourite scenes from The Hobbit.


Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
I get excited every time I see the door opening. It’s as if I feel that this is the moment I’ve been waiting for since the dwarves arrived in Bag-End.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?

Thorin seems older and more majestic. He’s arrogant and not particularly nice, especially to poor Bilbo, who is even more clueless about still another Dwarf in his house. I find this Thorin a lot more interesting than his book counterpart and the prologue has given us some idea of why Thorin is as he is. He’s loyal and loving but can also be quite a jerk.

2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?

It makes for a great entrance for this majestic version of Thorin, much better than having him fall in the door with the others. Also, we get all the Dwarven fun out of the way before we see their serious side.


I thought it was interesting that it was Gandalf rather than Bilbo or any of the other dwarves who opened the door.
3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?

Maybe so that Thorin can address Gandalf and then Bilbo, the other characters in this scene. The other Dwarves are just background here.


He says “Gandalf,” with a slight smile and walks in.
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?

To me he seems slightly annoyed at having become lost and maybe blaming it on Gandalf, but glad to have arrived.


”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
I find this incredibly amusing as we have no idea how he had lost his way, but I can imagine that he went (twice) to the wrong door, and had to get other hobbits to point him in the right direction [poor Thorin]! Laugh
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?

I think it was just intended to be funny and explain why Thorin is so late. The great Thorin Oakenshield can get lost, maybe because he thinks so little of Hobbits that he pays no attention to the Shire.


6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap?

It captures all three of the characters in this scene facing is different directions, sort of like how they carry on in the movie.


”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”

I thought the confusion on Bilbo’s face was priceless, and the way Gandalf is trying to quickly explain it to him. Laugh
7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?

The confusion is just piling up for Bilbo as things he thought he knew are overturned. I laugh every time Bilbo says his door was freshly painted as the scene in which Gandalf places his mark shows us that clearly it was not.

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?

I noticed the rare smile of course, but I think it would only suggest the familial relationship to those who already know.

”Bilbo Baggins allow me to introduce you to the leader of our company, Thorin Oakenshield.”
Thorin folds his arms and stands in front of Bilbo. “So, this is the hobbit.”

9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)?

Thorin obviously doesn't think much of Hobbits, the idea of taking a Hobbit on the quest and this Hobbit in particular and is a little offensive about it. His low expectations seem to have been met by Bilbo. Gandalf initially approaches Bilbo with different, higher expectations, which are also not met so he gets a little exasperated.


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?” Wink

”Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?

I do think Bilbo is being sarcastic in response to Thorin’s obvious disdain but Thorin doesn’t get it or chooses not to get it. Thorin must know very well that Hobbits are not usually fighters and that Bilbo won’t have had training in either weapon; Thorin is just trying to irritate Gandalf, IMO. Bilbo still has no idea of what is going on, that this visit is actually a job interview. I like how he stands up for himself, in his polite Hobbit way of course.

”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin?

It’s a good line and since Thorin is such a major character, it’s fine with me that he says it.

I love the way Gandalf leans against the arch after Thorin has left the room.
13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?

That the first meeting between Bilbo and Thorin doesn’t go as well as Gandalf had hoped


14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular?

No moments in particular come to mind; I like almost all of it.


Thorin is sitting eating soup.
15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have?

I noticed that as well and to me it says that a) Thorin is more restrained than his crew or b) there’s nothing else left.

The lighting is in this scene is darker in comparison to the previous scene, which seems to me to symbolise the danger within this Quest that they have not even started yet.
16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?

Good point and you're probably right.


This scene introduces Óin and Glóin’s character, and shows us that they are into prophecies.
When the dwarves stand up and argue, I think, shows that even though they are supposed to be a team, their personalities clash.

17) What are your thoughts on this?

I think the scene does show just that, that the Dwarves are all individuals, all different, that they don’t always get along, and that most of them are far from shy. It also shows Thorin’s authority as he quells them with a couple of words.

I think that the part that mostly stands out to me is when Dwalin asks Thorin “Is Dain with us?” and he slowly lowers his soup spoon and replies slowly “They will not come. They say this Quest is ours and ours alone.” I found this quite a significant moment as everyone seems quite disappointed, especially Dwalin.

18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why?

One of the things I love about this movie is that the Dwarves, even the ones with few lines, are always in character, always reacting appropriately to what the main characters are saying. It enriches the movie, and particularly this scene, immensely.

19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting?

Yes, IMO it works well – it’s an amusing and interesting way to get through this exposition.


I thought the map is very important as it symbolises hope and their fate.
20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene?

The map is the most important artifact in this movie, more so than even the Arkenstone at this stage. The whole plot turns on it. The map and the key move the quest from the impossible to the barely possible. It also draws Bilbo in for the first time as more than an onlooker.


21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?

The latter.

I think the way Thorin was able to motivate the dwarves like that shows how influential he is to them.
22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech?

It was great, as I recall. I like Thorin a lot but he’s not my favourite character, despite the hair, so the speech worked just fine for me but no more.

23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this?

Having read the book, I knew there is a way into the mountain.

Gandalf produces the key and explains to the bemused Thorin that Thráin had given it to him. I am surprised Thorin did not question him any further about how exactly he had come across his father.
24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition?

I agree and I really hope there will be something more on the EE.

”The answer lies hidden somewhere in this map and I do not have the skills to find it. But, there are others in Middle-Earth who can.”
25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)?

Exactly.

There are moments in the scene, like when Gandalf makes the room grow dark and when he asks Thorin to trust him and even having the map, I think relates the audience to LOTR.
26) Do you like this link to LOTR?

No. It seemed a bit forced to me, just like several other references to LotR. Does Gandalf make the room go dark every time he gets mad?

27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in?

Yes, and I like the way it unfolds in several directions. it’s funny and MF does a great job with it.

”I cannot guarantee his safety.”
“Understood.”
“Nor will I be responsible for his fate.”
“...Agreed.”

I think Thorin says this to Gandalf because even though his says this in a harsh tone, deep down this shows that he is worried about Bilbo.
28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?

I think that Thorin says exactly what he means. Gandalf is insisting that Bilbo accompany them on the quest; Thorin thinks it’s a bad idea and is refusing to accept the responsibility for it.

”Oh aye, he'll melt the flesh off your bones in the blink of an eye... Think furnace with wings... Flash of light, searing pain and ‘poof’ – you're nothing more than a pile of ash!”
29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?

The latter: Bofur is a prankster.

My favourite quote is Kíli’s "Gandalf will have killed hundreds of dragons in his time" – you underestimate wizards, Kíli!
30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?

My favourite quotes are Bofur’s description of the dragon to Bilbo: so matter of fact, so frightening, so funny.



(This post was edited by Noria on Oct 19 2013, 3:17pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 19 2013, 7:45pm

Post #18 of 41 (195 views)
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Dinner Discussion!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Door opens and Thorin Oakenshield turns his head.
1) This is the first time since the prologue that we encounter this character. What are your impressions of him now?
2) Do you like the fact that Thorin arrives late?

A great shot. Yes I do like him arriving late - his dignity and his responsibilities should be viewed as different to the rest of the Company. The sheer presence with which RA portrays him in this scene sets up for the changes from the past that we will see and adds layers to the character within the first few minutes of footage. His aura of youth and impulsive anger has mellowed into a more quiet roar, and a calm that hides the quiet pain we saw in the flashback to Erebor. You know he has gone through so much internal change, to be able to smile in this scene after the losses in the first scene in which we see him.


3) Why do you think the filmmakers decided, of all people, that Gandalf should open the door?
4) What do you think of his attitude towards Gandalf?

I love the way Gandalf leans against the arch after Thorin has left the room.
13) What does Gandalf’s exasperated expression tell us about the situation?
I think its a quiet homage to the UT tale, of how they are already acquainted and Gandalf knows how much tis meeting means. Thus he is the moving force behind the interactions this night. And that tired lean against the doorway is a sign that its not going as smoothly as he would like it to!


”I thought you said this place would be easy to find. I lost my way. Twice. I would not have found it at all had it not been for that mark on the door.”
5) A little fun question: How do you think he managed to lose his way (twice) to Bag-End?

It is endearing in a way - but it made me think that this Dwarf has so much on his mind that the details of the directions simply escaped him.

6) What do you think of the composition and camera angle in this screencap? (Of Thorin in the hall)

8) Did you notice the smile Thorin gives to Kíli during Bilbo’s flustered statement about there being no mark on his door? Do you think that this hints to the face that they are related?I like that it is shot from the standpoint of other Dwarves - Gandalf and Bilbo (as non-Dwarves) are not party to that intimate little smile of welcome. He turns to them with quite another face on!


”Mark? There's no mark on that door. It was painted a week ago!”
“There is a mark. I put it there myself.”

7) What do you think about Bilbo’s reaction to the mark on the door?
9) What do you think of Thorin’s first impressions of Bilbo and his “interrogation” (in comparison to Gandalf’s during the Good Morning scene)? It's Bilbo flustered, completely off guard and trying to make sense out of all this! And maybe a bit of Denial mixed in there: he's not ready to accept any of this yet.


10) Bonus Question here: “Axe or Sword, what’s your weapon of choice?”
"Well, I have some skills with conkers if you must know... though, I fail to see why that’s relevant...”
11) Do you think Bilbo’s reply was more to be funny but when he realises Thorin is being serious the joke becomes lost?No, I think it was sincere! It reflects on the naivete I think of Hobbit society in general.


”Thought as much. He looks more like a grocer than a burglar.”
12) In the book, this line was said by Glóin. Do you like that they included this from the book and that they gave them to Thorin? Yes it is setting up the lack of respect, some of which will be gained, lost, and gained again in their long journey together.

14) What did you like most about the scene up to this point? The dialogue, the layout, the facial expressions? Or was there one moment in particular? The deft setup of the differences between Thorin and Bilbo. My favorite part though is Gandalf: that exasperation, and that sense of him struggling to make this work. An insight into his nature, and him knowing it HAS to work but having some difficult alliances to make and choices to guide.


Thorin is sitting eating soup.
15) After the feast the other dwarves have had, would you say this is a "meagre meal" for Thorin to have? Meagre and much more sophisticated.


The lighting is in this scene is darker in comparison to the previous scene, which seems to me to symbolise the danger within this Quest that they have not even started yet.
16) Do you find the lighting quite effective for this scene?
17) What are your thoughts on this? The lighting shows the nature of their discussions: dark and secret. and we have no external light, so in a way it subconsciously reflects and suggests the lateness of the hour.


I think that the part that mostly stands out to me is when Dwalin asks Thorin “Is Dain with us?” and he slowly lowers his soup spoon and replies slowly “They will not come. They say this Quest is ours and ours alone.” I found this quite a significant moment as everyone seems quite disappointed, especially Dwalin.
18) This scene has a lot of moments when we are shown characterisation. Some are through dialogue. Most are though facial expressions, and there are a lot of things that go unsaid. Are there any moments that stand out to you and why? They seem disappointed, and Thorin seems abashed somehow - like he has failed in some way. That stands out a lot, he shows a bot of vulnerability here and sadness.


19) The only character in this scene who does not know of the details about the Quest is Bilbo. Do you like how this is used in order to explain to the audience, both in the film and the book, the purpose of this meeting? I think its an great spot to do it.


I thought the map is very important as it symbolises hope and their fate.
20) How significant do you think the map is in this scene? Love the way you put it Morningstar! I agree!


21) Whilst the dwarves are arguing, Bilbo is pleading for them all to calm down and Thorin quickly rises to his feet and says in Dwarvish “Silence!” and they all sit down, clearly showing that Thorin has authority over them all. Do you think he heard Bilbo or did he just decide the dwarves were going too far?
22) How did you react the first time you saw Thorin’s speech? It is a nice showcase of his authority BUT not of a closed mind - he allows the debate to go on for a bit before intervening.


23) After Thorin’s triumphal moment, Balin states that “there is no way into the mountain.” How did you feel when you heard this? Thorin looks so crestfallen. I think he and Balin have had this sort of talk before, on Why and Why Not to proceed - and it pains Thorin that he may not have Balin's support.


24) Do you think they will have anything extra about how Gandalf had found the key in the Extended Edition? Really I have no idea where the back story will come in.


”The answer lies hidden somewhere in this map and I do not have the skills to find it. But, there are others in Middle-Earth who can.”
25) When you first saw this, did you know who he meant (as you had read the book)? I thought it was a subtle hint from Gandalf to Thorin: getting him ready to accept help from those he does NOT want to ask for help.


There are moments in the scene, like when Gandalf makes the room grow dark and when he asks Thorin to trust him and even having the map, I think relates the audience to LOTR.
26) Do you like this link to LOTR? Yes - Gandalf is in character, perfectly. He behaves a certain way not to connect the films but because he IS who he is.


27) The contract in the book was short. Do you like the fact that the contract is very long (so much for a “usual brief summary”) and full of things that have been added in? I have the copy of it - what a fun read! Visually its a nice suggestion of the complexity of the planning to date.


”I cannot guarantee his safety.”
“Understood.”
“Nor will I be responsible for his fate.”
“...Agreed.”

I think Thorin says this to Gandalf because even though his says this in a harsh tone, deep down this shows that he is worried about Bilbo.
28) Why do you think Thorin says this to Gandalf?
I feel its sincere - at the time. And of course as Thorin saves Bilbo and DOES worry quite a lot about his fate, its shows Thorin on multi levels of complexity: what he says is not always what he really will feel; and what he says at one point will change with experience and change. But this night: He has a role to play, and in his culture he must play it if he chooses to go forward and lead this Company.


”Oh aye, he'll melt the flesh off your bones in the blink of an eye... Think furnace with wings... Flash of light, searing pain and ‘poof’ – you're nothing more than a pile of ash!”
29) Do you think Bofur was trying to make Bilbo laugh, or was he trying to wind Bilbo up?
I feel like Bofur was just being quite forthright in his little-boy way! Which is why he feels so puzzled when Bilbo falls over!


My favourite quote is Kíli’s "Gandalf will have killed hundreds of dragons in his time" – you underestimate wizards, Kíli! Smile
30 [final question] ) What is your favourite quote from this scene?
Hmmm...I love Bofur saying "We're off!!!!" with that big smile!!! Thanks Morningstar for a great scene discussion!!!! Cool



Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 8:15pm

Post #19 of 41 (177 views)
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Great analysis, Brethil! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you liked this discussion. Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 8:18pm

Post #20 of 41 (179 views)
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A little note about Question 10 [In reply to] Can't Post

The question is designed for answering. Laugh
Basically, I meant that if Thorin asked you what was your weapon of choice (Axe or Sword) what would it be? Wink

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 19 2013, 8:26pm

Post #21 of 41 (186 views)
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Interesting screencap. [In reply to] Can't Post


There's a couple of things that really strike me about this image:

First, the candles on the table. There are three of them. Could this be symbolic for the past, present and future?

Second, is the fact that they place Thorin right under the archway formed by the entranceways in Bag End to the different rooms. Arches are usually symbolic for new beginnings and changes of viewpoints. It can also suggest that the way to go is forward and that there is usually a way across. This scene paves the way across in a way since Thorin is presented the map and key, and Bilbo is given the contract.

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Oct 19 2013, 8:34pm

Post #22 of 41 (180 views)
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You're welcome. [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you so much for your kind comment. I really appreciate it.

Yes the fact that they quote the title of the book I thought was a really nice touch since they did this in LOTR exactly as you quoted.

Thanks again MorningStar.
Here's a present for you - another screencap from the scene: here Wink

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Kim
Valinor


Oct 19 2013, 8:36pm

Post #23 of 41 (185 views)
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Well now that screencap [In reply to] Can't Post

is just a present for us all! Wink


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 19 2013, 8:38pm

Post #24 of 41 (170 views)
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Oh! Good ideas! [In reply to] Can't Post

You really are into all the magic and symbolic things, aren't you? Wink
Another excellent analysis, Silwen. I never thought of that before! *claps* Smile

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 19 2013, 8:39pm

Post #25 of 41 (176 views)
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Oh darn! I forgot to answer it!!! Thanks for the reminder! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The question is designed for answering. Laugh
Basically, I meant that if Thorin asked you what was your weapon of choice (Axe or Sword) what would it be? Wink




Well, if I was in a misbehaving mood the reverse question might be: depends on what you are packing this evening, My Lord. EvilLaugh

Ahem. In a sincere vein: I guess sword, as I have little experience with axes except tomahawks.

Cool

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!




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