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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
accidental mythmaking -- why it seems more real
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Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Oct 16 2013, 9:16pm

Post #26 of 62 (263 views)
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sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

I did restate what you said too much didn't I... Blush

As for my adventure, I would board a huge metal eagle, fly to a distant land where chips are not chips and boot means something completely different and explore the West (End). During these mini-adventures I would find a certain Dwarf King on his own quest to play a tortured king who would give me 3rd row center tickets to his adventure. I would chronicle my adventures in a book, The Azure Book of Ioreth's Adventures Across the Pond (ABIAAP), it would be made into a movie and said Dwarf king would reprise his tortured kingly role. I would spend a lot of time on the set, making needless script changes just so I could watch him create a character from my writing.

Then I would board another metal eagle back to my side of the pond...

... and wake up. Cool

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings


elaen32
Gondor


Oct 16 2013, 9:33pm

Post #27 of 62 (244 views)
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No worries Ioreth! [In reply to] Can't Post

Your adventure sounds good! I actually live said side of the pond and for years lived within 20 leagues ( well about 50 miles) of said Dwarf King, but had never seen himFrown However, I had my own adventure riding on a metal eagle to Middle- earth, and saw him from afar a couple of times in Minas Tirith the capital! It's a strange worldCrazy


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2013, 9:41pm

Post #28 of 62 (246 views)
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really [In reply to] Can't Post

 
really, you two.

what if i suddenly revealed that +i+ am the king under the mountain, and have been in disguise all this time?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


Oct 16 2013, 9:43pm

Post #29 of 62 (239 views)
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Uh? [In reply to] Can't Post

ShockedCrazy


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2013, 9:53pm

Post #30 of 62 (235 views)
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I won't believe!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't believe it until you send me one of those majestic stares across the Interweb. With something that intense, I'm sure that I'd get SOMETHING on this end!!

LOL!!CrazyWinkTongue


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2013, 10:00pm

Post #31 of 62 (231 views)
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oh... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... i've been doing my intense stare thing for a long time now. brethil and elaen have been particularly receptive, 'tho they have not been consciously aware it was me.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Oct 16 2013, 10:04pm

Post #32 of 62 (238 views)
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But you're across the other pond now... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ms. I-made-it-to-the-western-shores.

I'm still stuck in Bree. Come save me from the Prancing Pony's bad ale and we'll see if I believe you then. Wink

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2013, 10:26pm

Post #33 of 62 (238 views)
Shortcut
don't [In reply to] Can't Post

 
... tempt me.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 16 2013, 10:40pm

Post #34 of 62 (238 views)
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In light of your rvelation, my Avatar needed changing: [In reply to] Can't Post

one suggestive of pervasive cognitive dissonance.

<---------------------- Crazy LaughLaugh

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 16 2013, 11:24pm

Post #35 of 62 (234 views)
Shortcut
what [In reply to] Can't Post

 
are you having a hard time understanding?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Kim
Valinor


Oct 17 2013, 4:30am

Post #36 of 62 (210 views)
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Cool thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

and congrats on reaching T.E.

BTW, I really like your new avatar - he's looking right at me! Laugh


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2013, 4:35am

Post #37 of 62 (227 views)
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thanks : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
thanks, kim. : ) tol eressea is certainly a delightful place. we will keep the light on for you, when you get here.

and yes.... i carefully selected that one for maximum lady-tremors.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 17 2013, 4:18pm

Post #38 of 62 (196 views)
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great post, elthir [In reply to] Can't Post


[ elthir ]

In Reply To
I agree.

And moreover, in my opinion a main ingredient of the Subcreated World is consistency, with a smattering of inconsistency to help the flavour. To put things rather simply, I think Tolkien usually knew what to describe and what not to describe, and what details or matters could lend themselves to a little confusion, or variant perspectives, within the aim of actually improving the reality of the Secondary World.

On Fairy Stories touches upon the art of building a Secondary World, but to my mind that doesn't include readers taking external dissonance and characterizing it as internal -- that is, characterizing all the dissonance now in print as truly part of the imagined legendarium. I'm not saying anyone here is doing this actually, especially in such a sweeping and simplified way, but that doing this essentially creates far more inconsistency than really exists, including arbitrary inconsistencies that the author himself never even dreamed of.

In other words, obviously all the variant texts involved in the external evolution are not intended to be part of an internal legendarium [and again I note the 'unintentional' aspect originally noted in the thread], but I think a case could likewise be made for this kind of dissonance as actually undermining the reality of the Secondary World.

Guy Kay [as far as I know] was seemingly against the publication of The History of Middle-Earth series for example, and I assume [!] it's because doing so arguably reveals the author 'behind the curtain' so to speak, and would possibly, at least for some, undermine The Silmarillion as published. Obviously not everyone agrees with this, and I think [just guessing yet again] that Christopher Tolkien probably thought Guy Kay had a good point here, but that there were other reasons to publish this material in any case.

I certainly get the point that these various texts echo the confusion of Primary World history, but I think Tolkien worked hard and thoughtfully at the art of subceation, which yes, includes a measure of variation or dissonance. In my opinion his purposed examples include...

A) The Dwarvish claim that they recieved the first of the 'Seven' from the Elven-Smiths themselves [not Sauron] -- compare to what is said in Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age that Sauron handed out seven Rings of Power to Dwarves.

A1) I note too, in Of The Rings Of Power, how the contracted account might imply that Frodo himself destroyed the One. Shirley Tolkien was well aware of this phrasing and simplification compared to the long account from the Hobbits.

B) The two internal histories of the Elessar stone [a draft text published in Unfinished Tales]

C) And very notably in my opinion, the Mannish version of the Fall of Numenor, The Drowning of Anadune [published in Sauron Defeated].

Think it's 'true' that the World was made round at the Fall of Numenor? Hmm Wink


There are plenty more examples I would say, some of which might be mere error it's true [hey Tolkien was human] but many of which were intentional in my opinion. Perhaps we can even include instances of subtle variant phrasing when the Annals [Aman and Grey] are compared to Quenta Silmarillion [at some point they were still considered different texts before they began to merge in style and so on]. I would include also the poetic, long and short prose versions of the same tale, although granted that might be more a case of additional information instead of variant phrasing that imparts arguably different ideas or history, or whatever.

For an example that I think was intentional [I can't prove it]: poetic [Lay of Leithian]: Maglor casts himself into the sea: prose [Quenta Silmarillion]: Maglor casts the Silmaril into the sea, but himself wanders the shore and so on. As far as I can tell this is really an external variation however, but my point in raising this one is that such a detail seems [to me] to rather 'easily' lend itself to later 'historic' confusion...

... and that's subjective of course, so not only will Tolkien have his notions of measure, as in how much dissonance to include, but also his measure of just what 'believably' lends itself to purposed variation.


And again if we really consider the number of contradictions that simply exist from an external perspective [twelve volumes of The History of Middle-Earth series, The Letters of JRR Tolkien , Unfinished Tales, various linguistic documents] then we are talking about a lot of unintended dissonance when we consider the art of world building, again which craft Tolkien took seriously I think.

Granted now and again JRRT [in my opinion] just couldn't help himself as far as revising, as he would niggle some details that were already 'internal' -- and here I mean actually revising already published text and publishing the revision. I think with these however Tolkien thought they would go relatively unnoticed and be buried in time, as he could not have predicted the amount of scrutiny his published work would receive someday, and so too many people still know that Galadriel's father was 'Finrod' according to the first edition, for example.

Well granted 'too many' might be subjective, but in general there's now so much information about Tolkien and his work, all kinds of 'external' stuff isn't all that hard to find these days.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing [I love it myself], but rather that I don't think Tolkien could have expected it.

Okay I'm rambling... what was the topic again Crazy

[ / elthir ]



really great and considered post, elthir. you've given us a lot to think about.

regarding intentional (intentionally introduced by the author) dissonance, i'm inclined to limit it to only examples which can be found in the "lord of the riings" and "the hobbit." those works are the only works of middle-earth published and finished and approved in the author's lifetime.

one example that springs to mind is how bilbo got the ring, but i think this is not as much an example of pure author-induced dissonance as it is author retconning.

i think examples from the posthumously published works do not count because tolkien never got to the point at which things were officially final. therefore, it's impossible to assess what inconsistencies are purposeful and which are not. although examining all the works (published and unpublished) for author-induced dissonance is certainly a fun and interesting way to spend some time.

regarding your thoughts on readers infusing dissonance into a secondary world.... would you grant us a boon and provide some examples? my mind more easily thinks of the reverse.... readers inaccurately infusing consistency, foresight, artful construction, and meaning into an author's works than is actually there. this often arises out of reverence for the work, being captivated by the secondary world, and / or caught up in a cult of personality around the author. i think i know what you're saying in your statement of the opposite, it's just that examples are not springing readily to my mind.

wow, i did not know that about guy kay. it would be a very sad loss indeed if the history of middle-earth had not been made available to the general public.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elthir
Gondor

Oct 17 2013, 5:12pm

Post #39 of 62 (213 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
regarding your thoughts on readers infusing dissonance into a secondary world.... would you grant us a boon and provide some examples?



Yes, I was referring to the possibility of some [as I say] '... readers taking external dissonance and characterizing it as internal -- that is, characterizing all the dissonance now in print as truly part of the imagined legendarium. I'm not saying anyone here is doing this actually, especially in such a sweeping and simplified way, but that doing this essentially creates far more inconsistency than really exists, including arbitrary inconsistencies that the author himself never even dreamed of.'

So not anyone here, but in the past and elsewhere I remember at least the implication [or what I possibly wrongly interpreted as the implication], of some who characterize the external corpus, or at least parts of it, as 'internally' part of the legendarium. In other words, more inconsistency than Tolkien intended.

But as people have different ideas about 'how much' inconsistency makes the legendarium more real, maybe they don't care if what are to me 'obviously' rejected texts become internal variations?

Example: Tolkien's two Elessar-stone variant histories: these are, to me, intended to be internal. What about the mention of the green jewel in Annals of Aman however? I've seen people post all three variations with no distinction, as if the legendarium was intended to contain all three variations. Possibly it simply never entered this person's mind to make such a distinction, nor might he or she think it important, admittedly.

I do, as to me it speaks to the art of Subcreation, but that's me being pedantic. Of course it's quite possible to simply list variations without such a distinction and not mean anything by it at all. One simply imparts information, especially as all 'three' ideas were never author-published, in this case.

Or maybe this person thinks three variations makes Tolkien's work all the more realistic? Is there anyone who thinks that all this external stuff makes Tolkien's work more realistic? Or some of it [and if so, what parts are included]?

Admittedly that's pretty simplified and sweeping, as I said earlier, so probably not. In any case that to me would be an 'internal' way of thinking. If Qenta Noldorinwa [1930] and the same story from the Later Quenta Silmarillion are considered both internal, for example, we have reader-created inconsistency.

Truth and 'internal' are different to my mind as well. Hobbit poetry about Trolls is 'true' as in actual parts of the legendarium, whether or not the poetry contains 'arguable Hobbit fancy' or not.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 18 2013, 5:56pm

Post #40 of 62 (169 views)
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MAC...Say Friend and Enter... Tol Ereesea [In reply to] Can't Post

Bomby Loves the View from it's Hights!
You get a Wonderful view of Valinor to the West and Yet
can barely make out some of the shores and Mountains of MiddleEarth to the east.

You won't find Bomby around much,
since I'm Teaching the Trees to MOVE,
with Radagast's Help...
Hidden in my Laboratory in This OLD Forest..


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Oct 18 2013, 5:57pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 18 2013, 7:37pm

Post #41 of 62 (170 views)
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bomby! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
bomby! : )

thank you so much for your very warm welcome. : )

i love your poetic descriptions of the views, and thank you for your wonderful work in getting the trees to move. perhaps you might be lucky enough to discover some entwives.

it is surely a joy to see so many forests older than the ages that will never be cut down, and will always be home to olvar and kelvar, undisturbed.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Kalimac
Bree


Oct 19 2013, 7:41am

Post #42 of 62 (164 views)
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I think you raise a very good point about the "perspectives" we get of middle earth [In reply to] Can't Post

For the most part, we hear very little of "the little people" (by which I mean herbalists and washer-women not hobbits). Of the top of my head, the only common people we really meet are Ioreth and Beregond in The Lord of the Rings. I think hearing from the everyday people would certainly add depth to the universe. But, it would probably end up changing the tone of the books a lot.


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 8:28pm

Post #43 of 62 (137 views)
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Threats and welcome [In reply to] Can't Post

Alas, there was peace in Tol Eressea, but we dropped our immigration standards a little too low, and now the incoming ruffians threaten to push our peace-loving citizens off the docks. Nevertheless, I welcome you from the waters I now tread in the bay and wish you the very best of sojourns on our Enchanted Isle, and mayhaps you won't be staying overlong and might hasten to Valinor and see how Tulkas likes being pushed off Alqualonde's docks?

Just kidding! Happy you made it here!

I love just about every historical period. What's interesting about the parallel you cite between Tolkien's history and real-world history is that the latter has multiple historians writing different versions, and there was only one Tolkien creating competing versions. Or will literary historians 2,000 years from now look back and conclude that "Tolkien" was an amalgam of a pool of writers, hence all the different versions? They will certainly conclude that the evidence proves it couldn't all come from a single person.


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 8:43pm

Post #44 of 62 (135 views)
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Why do women like men staring at them in this creepy way? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 8:50pm

Post #45 of 62 (131 views)
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Epics [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with you on this one, Ioreth:


Quote
legends are for the heroes.

While a big part of me wants to know every detail of Middle-earth because it's fascinating, I think the reason it's fascinating is that I only get to see it at the epic level of heroes and great deeds. That's what draws me in. It is elitist, and while I generally find elitism distasteful, it's what makes fantasy work: what are kings and queens and wizards up to? Heroes "of low birth" can join the story if they do something fit for a legend. Those broad brush strokes then make me wonder what a day in the life of Nob of Bree was like. Pretty dull, if it's mostly getting scolded by Butterbur, but I wonder all the same.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 20 2013, 9:05pm

Post #46 of 62 (142 views)
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i don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

 

i don't know, cg. maybe it's a matter of perspective?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Oct 20 2013, 9:08pm)


Dame Ioreth
Grey Havens


Oct 20 2013, 10:37pm

Post #47 of 62 (128 views)
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Thanks for the Ioreth shout out! [In reply to] Can't Post

But then she did something that I think is interesting now, didn't she? Something that put her in the realm of the heroes if even for just a minute or so. She melded her humdrum life of herb lore and her sharp wits with a chance of a lifetime and ended up giving a wizard and a king the kick in the pants they needed. I (of course) would even argue that she put Aragorn in the right frame of mind to accept the crown. He knew who he was, but that little bit of King's hands and Althelas was just the right tonic for a would-be king.

Hooray for the little people! (Which is one of the lessons I take away every time I read these books.)

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings


imin
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 10:47pm

Post #48 of 62 (124 views)
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Interesting you say this [In reply to] Can't Post

I very recently attended a series of lectures and seminars on body language and in one extensive study they found that women on average find a man who is is looking as RA is there - rolled eyebrow ridge - could be concentrating, could be trying to intimidate/threaten. Obviously this does not apply to every woman, just on average what facial features were found to be more attractive by women.

The other profile pic of a women of course does not have this same expression so is different but that's another matter, lol.

'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 20 2013, 10:51pm

Post #49 of 62 (116 views)
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Is your avatar RA without his makeup? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 20 2013, 10:54pm

Post #50 of 62 (115 views)
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recriminations and thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm absolutely certain i did you a favor, cg. the waters around tol eressea are lovely, and the elves of alqualonde have composed a lay in your honor, to do justice to the elegant way in which you fell, and the swan-white foam that sprang up from the sea like wings when you landed.

i am duty-bound to inform you that you still owe brethil cookies or cupcakes or something of that sort.

i hope you introduce me to some good company while i'm here.

also... tulkas is looking forward to me pushing him off the dock. i'm pretty sure.

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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