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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Physics of The Hobbit...again
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entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Oct 14 2013, 1:29pm

Post #51 of 77 (476 views)
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When FOTR was first released, we had a thread on the boards [In reply to] Can't Post

that was started by a mine safety engineer. She wrote a hilarious post pointing out all the mine safety violations in Moria, and there were dozens. We all had a great time imagining the shutdown notices and safety warnings that should have been placed all over Moria.

No one took offense or felt their opinions were dismissed, because it was all in fun. I loved it when someone pointed out the physics of the fall in Goblin Town, and even though I thought that moment was unrealistic, I never felt that the post was shutting down discussion. What it did for me was to offer another perspective that I had never considered.

Let's keep remembering that we're all here to have fun. Anyone trying to shut down discussion will be stopped by the moderators, and anyone that feels that it's happening just need to contact one of us and we'll take a look.


Mahtion
Rivendell


Oct 14 2013, 2:13pm

Post #52 of 77 (454 views)
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Bending and stretching credulity [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, as I said before even if all the experts say that the scene's physics should not take you out of the movie, if it does then it cannot be undone. I'm not saying that one is more correct than the other, that Biology trumps physics but there are certainly different sensibilities for different people. That said I do not think that trying to explain or rationalize the action scenes amount to stifling debate or hushing those who feel the scene didn't work. No one can claim that it worked/failed for all of the audience. To do so would be overstepping your individual credibility.

Most certainly the powers of Middle-earth can change the laws that govern creation because they are the personification of those very elements having existed since before the emergence of matter. The degree of influence and manipulation obviously depends on the level of power of the Ainu. A Maia would have much less ability to change the world than a Vala. Even a housed Ainu though encased in flesh and limited does not feel bound to the laws of nature. Melian created the magical barrier which exists outside normal laws of physics and Melkor dimished himself by imbuing/transferring his essence into the parts of Arda and used it to corrupt living creatures. I cannot say with absolute certainty that I know if the Ainur do not abide by newtonian physics but I can suggest based on the textual evidence that they do not need to worry about the laws of thermodynamics. Traditionally spiritual/mythological beings live outside the binding laws of mortality and creation.

Allow not the shadows of the Enemy to dull your courage or shatter your resolve. We are yet to all pass from the walls of Arda. The light of Aman still shines upon our fair faces, for we are the Calaquendi.

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Oct 14 2013, 2:59pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 14 2013, 3:17pm

Post #53 of 77 (424 views)
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So true! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

I love watching worlds collide on these boards. We've got pirates, and scientists and linguists, Oh my! Where else on Earth would you be able to find such talented and interesting people sharing their combined passions?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!





RosieLass
Valinor


Oct 14 2013, 4:10pm

Post #54 of 77 (405 views)
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Who cares? All the people who still want to discuss it, maybe??? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 14 2013, 4:26pm

Post #55 of 77 (391 views)
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Good for them I guess [In reply to] Can't Post

Crazy



Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 14 2013, 4:43pm

Post #56 of 77 (388 views)
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Not plausible in my opinion... [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree - no matter what anyone says in favor of the plausibility of surviving any of the pit-falls in the Goblin-town sequence (and the stone giants sequence as well), I still think that each and every one of them getting up and walking away as if nothing happened is a bit ridiculous. With that said, I didn't find myself dwelling on it.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 14 2013, 5:47pm

Post #57 of 77 (369 views)
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Thing is, scenes and storylines that stretch credulity.... [In reply to] Can't Post

....aren't exclusive to The Hobbit. You find them in pretty well any adventure movie, and several examples have been mentioned here.

In any drama, even. They've had some pretty implausible storylines in 'Downton Abbey' - no CGI required - but I still accept them and go along with it because I really enjoy Downton. And honestly I think that's what it comes down to in the end. Do people want to buy into it or don't they. Because all these things are make-believe. Films, plays, books. They're not real and you can always find fault - and no matter how perfect the special effects become, you will always know that they're not real. In the end it comes down to a choice on the part of the viewer.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 14 2013, 6:22pm

Post #58 of 77 (351 views)
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Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the biggest violations of the laws of physics (and reality in general) in LOTR for me was in FOTR as the Fellowship's fled from the Balrog down the gigantic stairs as they crumbled beneath them. In particular, Aragorn and Frodo's balancing act, then the stair they're standing on crashing into the stair the rest of the group is on, crumbling in the process but, miraculously doing no damage to the stair they all end up on, and no one ends up even being knocked down no less falling off. I often smile and think: it's a good thing this is a movie, because none of them would have a chance in hades if this was supposed to be real. Still, it remains one of my favorite 'edge of my seat' scenes and I think the CGI is breathtaking.

I can definitely see why some of the scenes in AUJ are over the top for some and while I don't particularly *like* some of those scenes myself, they don't take me out of the movie or ruin the scene for me. Like Moria, I still want to sit on the edge of my seat when I watch the chase in Goblin Town and I still love the episode overall.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 14 2013, 6:26pm

Post #59 of 77 (353 views)
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But Gandalf was there! [In reply to] Can't Post

He can make anything happen! Tongue

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 14 2013, 6:50pm

Post #60 of 77 (357 views)
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Probably the worst writer to strain credulity.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...was Dickens.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 14 2013, 6:54pm

Post #61 of 77 (353 views)
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"Philomythus to Misomythus" [In reply to] Can't Post

You look at trees and label them just so,
(for trees are 'trees', and growing is 'to grow');
you walk the earth and tread with solemn pace
one of the many minor globes of Space:
a star's a star, some matter in a ball
compelled to courses mathematical
amid the regimented, cold, inane,
where destined atoms are each moment slain.

-JRR Tolkien, Mythopoeia

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 14 2013, 7:13pm

Post #62 of 77 (345 views)
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can you elaborate? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
darkstone, you can't just dangle dickens like that without further elaboration (yes, well, you could... but i implore you not to).

.... in what way? physics? serindipity? hidden identities?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 14 2013, 7:14pm

Post #63 of 77 (332 views)
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Oh, I agree with that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...AUJ hardly invented implausibility or over-the-top action scenes.

Really though, the whole "pin-ball Dwarves" thing doesn't bother me too much. I certainly wouldn't complain if they toned it down a hair for the next few films, but with 3D being such a huge deal, I'm not holding my breath for that.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 14 2013, 7:19pm

Post #64 of 77 (341 views)
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Haha! Apparently. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But Gandalf was there. He can make anything happen.


I'm sure it wasn't sheer coincidence that he was in both scenes. Laugh


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 14 2013, 7:57pm

Post #65 of 77 (325 views)
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Coincidence [In reply to] Can't Post

Dickens' novels are full of unlikely coincidences. This is not an accident:

On the coincidences, resemblances, and surprises of life, Dickens liked especially to dwell, and few things moved his fancy so pleasantly. The world, he would say, was so much smaller than we thought; we were all so connected by fate without knowing it; people supposed to be far apart were so constantly elbowing each other; and to-morrow bore so close a resemblance to nothing half so much as yesterday.
-John Forster, Life of Charles Dickens

Could this be true? In his paper Relativity Einstein speaks of natural coincidence, and after years of discussion with him, Jung was inspired to write:

Synchronicity is no more baffling or mysterious than the discontinuities of physics. It is only the ingrained belief in the sovereign power of causality that creates intellectual difficulties and makes it appear unthinkable that causeless events exist or could ever exist.
-C.G. Jung, “Synchronicity”

Einstein supposedly said "Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous." Considering the important role of "Providence" in LOTR, that would seem to be a very Tolkien thing to say.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


R11
Lorien

Oct 14 2013, 8:06pm

Post #66 of 77 (330 views)
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PJ should have just made this bloated pile of dung as animation [In reply to] Can't Post

With such a completely cartoony aesthetic it would have been far more palatable that way.


ron


imin
Valinor


Oct 14 2013, 8:08pm

Post #67 of 77 (325 views)
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Don't sugar coat it [In reply to] Can't Post

Tell us what you really think. TongueTongueTongue

'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 12:09am

Post #68 of 77 (278 views)
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No, not anything... But "A great deal for friends in a tight corner!" [In reply to] Can't Post

lol. I don't think that was the filmmakers intent, but as force, attraction, repulsion and dispersion are at play... it really deals with stabilizing and redistribution of kinetic energy. In theory, if you can make a stone structure explode at will, you might also be able to hold one together for a long enough time to make a mad dash.

In Reply To
He can make anything happen! Tongue


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 12:26am

Post #69 of 77 (278 views)
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What is it that you think magic does? Violate, no, that is too strong a term. "Laws" is also too strong, since [In reply to] Can't Post

we have known particles that violate the known "laws" of physics (all of Quantum makes an art of violating the macro laws... whatever they are), and also have to take into account 11 possible dimensions, different universes where the laws may be different, and the fact that our own universe does not seem to play by the laws of physics ascribed to it. A lot of physicists are wringing their hands over a score of particles the Large Hadron Collider should have found alongside the Higgs boson... but didn't. Several noted physicists suggested that "the Universe may be unnatrual," which is, of course, foolishness. The Universe is as natural as ever. Yet it certainly may be unsolvable by any standard equation and beyond human comprehension.


No, he cannot burn snow (he could melt it, but evidently not an entire sea of it, which is fair). But lets be plain, if you can be wreathed in fire but not burn, carry a penumbra of shadow about you that cannot be dispelled, hold in a single ring enough power to rear up castles and towered fortresses, and make those fortresses crumble to ruin via the destruction of that Ring, if you can postpone the effects of time and of entropy with small golden artifacts or those of gems and silver metals, if you can walk with total awareness in other dimensions besides the usual three to four (if four is indeed Time), if you can sing a great prison to the ground and burst it open with your melody, change the colour and shape of smoke, fire and water with a thought and a gesture, move objects telekenitically (this does happen in the novels though certainly not to the degree of the duel in Orthanc in the movies... still), make arrows dissapear into bursts of fire, again with a thought, demolish and raze entire chambers of stone through conflicting spells of power, house wicked spirits in corpese, and sing said spirits out of their borrowed homes, transform into wolves, serpents and bears, capture starlight in a vial of water and make it shine forth with burning radince, shatter a sword or a staff with a gesture of hand, peer into the future, make things invisible, direct waves and summon storms. . . yes, I am going to go out on a limb, far out if it's required, and say that a being of adequate Power might be able to redirect kinetic energy , shield themselves from the effects of or otherwise prove resilaint enough to survive an otherwise devestating fall.

In Reply To
Tolkien was extraordinary careful to maintain an inner consistency in his subcreation. He himself described what the successful subcreator must do:

"He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is "true": it accords with the laws of that world.`"

Certain acts of magic can exist in that world, but they still need to follow the laws that govern the secondary world. Thus, Gandalf tells Legolas:


Quote
If Elves could fly over mountains, they might fetch the Sun to save us,' answered Gandalf. `But I must have something to work on. I cannot burn snow.'


Even the Ainur are bound by the laws that govern the World that Is, when they are in It. Only Eru is not.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by entmaiden on Oct 15 2013, 12:52am)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 12:39am

Post #70 of 77 (277 views)
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THIS a STORY Told to... Little Hobbits...by YES! Bilbo & PJ! [In reply to] Can't Post

By their ODD Old Friend..

Remember?
Ian Hom exciting Little Children
before....Disappearing before
Their Very Eyes!

PJ is showing us what Bilbo REMEMBERS,
Bilbo's VERSION of what happened...

PHYSICs... be Damned!!!

Nothing MORE
Nothing Less!

That'zzz Bomby's Theory
And Bomby izzz
Stickin' to it!


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Oct 15 2013, 8:22am

Post #71 of 77 (245 views)
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LOTR/AUJ [In reply to] Can't Post

There were violations of the laws of physics in the LOTR movies, but AUJ is above all of them. We have such impossible scenes that are just ridicolous (mostly in the Misty Mountains) and comparing LOTR with that is like comparing lake to the sea. The main reason for all of that is mainly in CGI exaggeration and over dramatization to make story more intense but the result is much worse for me.


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Oct 15 2013, 1:19pm

Post #72 of 77 (229 views)
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Let's apply this to real life [In reply to] Can't Post

So when your mother scolds you about giving in to peer pressure, saying, "Just because your friends jump off a cliff, would you do it too?"...obviously the correct reply is a thoughtful, "Hmm. Is the cliff in a Peter Jackson movie?"

Wink


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again." --G. K. Chesterton



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Oct 15 2013, 2:02pm

Post #73 of 77 (216 views)
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Would you be able to elaborate??? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do not believe that we have seen a take from a biologist yet. It would be a most interesting read!!


Noria
Rohan

Oct 15 2013, 2:07pm

Post #74 of 77 (221 views)
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I was fine with the stunts in AUJ. [In reply to] Can't Post

I never had any problem with the falls in Goblintown, even though they were exaggerated, because even the first time I watched AUJ I perceived that there was as much momentary stopping and sliding as falling. Subsequent viewings and Dweller’s excellent explanations only confirmed my initial perceptions.

Plus I have always believed the Dwarves are tougher than the other races, as evidenced by the head butt between Balin and Dwalin in Bag End.

But mostly I was enjoying the movie and so didn't have that feeling of increasing irritation about everything I saw that happens when you dislike something.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 15 2013, 2:37pm

Post #75 of 77 (212 views)
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I can definitely see your point [In reply to] Can't Post

I *see* what you and others are saying about AUJ. I would almost be able to pinpoint the scenes you and other are referring to without you even having to tell me because I see the same thing you're seeing. Those scenes just don't take me and some people out of the movie or, instead of coming across as looking ridiculous, they look exciting or fun or, like Moria for me, for a fleeting second I think 'they'd be dead if this wasn't a movie' and I get on with the rest of the movie. I'm not saying you shouldn't be taken out of the movie, or you shouldn't dislike it. It's just a difference of opinion which is exactly what discussion is for! Smile

I also wonder, if there really were more or worse 'violations' of physics in AUJ than LOTR or if, again, it's a matter of interpretation and perception. Moria was just one example, but the snow slide on Caradhras also comes to mind, or Frodo falling off Amon Hen and getting up without getting a scratch. Incident-wise and screen-time wise, I'm betting you could find a similar number of scenes in the LOTR movies.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase




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