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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Time to end the 'who's more badass debate'

ecthelionsbeard
Lorien

Oct 13 2013, 5:07pm

Post #1 of 21 (949 views)
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Time to end the 'who's more badass debate' Can't Post

When Azog gets his arm chopped off he cries like a little baby. When Lurtz gets his arm chopped off he doesn't even flinch. This concludes the debate.


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Oct 13 2013, 5:37pm

Post #2 of 21 (487 views)
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At that time Azog was its ownmaster he had a lot to care about and to lose [In reply to] Can't Post

Lurtz was a mindless puppet, robot like

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 13 2013, 5:45pm

Post #3 of 21 (484 views)
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I have always felt this way, regarding the filmic Azog. lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, he had a horrible size advantage on the dwarves. lol. That said, I don't know how he was knocking several dwarves at a time aside, unless his mace is magic or he really is secretly a Boldog incarnate demon. Oh well. The greater badass of Moria was and remains The Balrog. lol

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Mahtion
Rivendell


Oct 13 2013, 6:17pm

Post #4 of 21 (449 views)
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Maiar Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Also, he had a horrible size advantage on the dwarves. lol. That said, I don't know how he was knocking several dwarves at a time aside, unless his mace is magic or he really is secretly a Boldog incarnate demon. Oh well. The greater badass of Moria was and remains The Balrog. lol


I was under the impression that most Orc chieftains are lesser Maiar spirits housed in orc forms. I believe this was the case during the days of Morgoth and at times during the reign of Sauron. I forget where I read the information which suggests as much. Obviously none of these lesser housed spirits were on the level of the Valaraukar, Sauron, Melian or the Istari. Morgoth definitely lured more Maiar than just Sauron or the Balrogs.

I have no idea if Azog/Bolg are Maiar incarnate but they are unique and size and ability. Also Lurtz was Uruk-Hai they are much different from orcs even Mordor or Gundabad. They are supposed to be much taller, stronger, resilient and less sensitive to pain or fear.

Allow not the shadows of the Enemy to dull your courage or shatter your resolve. We are yet to all pass from the walls of Arda. The light of Aman still shines upon our fair faces, for we are the Calaquendi.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 13 2013, 8:10pm

Post #5 of 21 (380 views)
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Awesome post, and largely correct I think, except perhaps for the "most" part. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think at all that most Orc cheiftans were "Boldogs" (lesser Maiar in orc form), especially not in the second and Third Ages. I think that certainly would have been the case in the earliest days of the orcs, when the first orcs as a subverted species of Elves (most likely forcibly bred with these incarnate demons) were first issuing forward in large numbers. In those days, yes nearly all the great chieftans would have been these demons, who would have been MUCH more powerful and perilous than any ordinay orc, regardless of the Age, stronger and more sorcerously talented, even though Tolkien says that they would have been diminished somewhat by binding themselves to a corperal form and moreso by procreating in that form (something I think we can assume the Balrogs never did, as, who could have survived such a copulation?). Watever the number of Demon-Orcs, it would likely have never been greater than the number Melkor began with, and would have been greatly reduced by the wars of the First Age. I don't doubt that some probably remained even in the late centuries of The Third Age, but by that time their number would have been, I would think, relatively few. It is certainly possible that Azog could have been one (extremely old bugger if so lol), but Bolg we know could not have been, since he was Azog's son, though certainly he would have remained an unusually strong horror, if an incarnate Demon as orc had been his sire. Neither of course would be anything near the power and evil majesty of a Balrog, but that is another conversation.

In Reply To

In Reply To
Also, he had a horrible size advantage on the dwarves. lol. That said, I don't know how he was knocking several dwarves at a time aside, unless his mace is magic or he really is secretly a Boldog incarnate demon. Oh well. The greater badass of Moria was and remains The Balrog. lol


I was under the impression that most Orc chieftains are lesser Maiar spirits housed in orc forms. I believe this was the case during the days of Morgoth and at times during the reign of Sauron. I forget where I read the information which suggests as much. Obviously none of these lesser housed spirits were on the level of the Valaraukar, Sauron, Melian or the Istari. Morgoth definitely lured more Maiar than just Sauron or the Balrogs.

I have no idea if Azog/Bolg are Maiar incarnate but they are unique and size and ability. Also Lurtz was Uruk-Hai they are much different from orcs even Mordor or Gundabad. They are supposed to be much taller, stronger, resilient and less sensitive to pain or fear.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elskidor
Rohan

Oct 13 2013, 9:38pm

Post #6 of 21 (310 views)
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This was ever in debate? [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog, of curse. Azog would destroy that mindless drone.


Lio
Lorien


Oct 13 2013, 10:45pm

Post #7 of 21 (269 views)
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Debate? Aww, can't we all just get along? [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I'm concerned both Azog and Lurtz both rock the badassitude department. Though I've gotta admit I like Azog a lot more. Wink

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


HiddenSpring
Lorien

Oct 13 2013, 11:05pm

Post #8 of 21 (276 views)
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Obviously Lurtz [In reply to] Can't Post

He speaks only when necessary, isn't mindlessly obsessed with genocide and overall seems to have a good head on his shoulders. He also knows when to die, a talent Nazi Azog did not inherit; he seems hellbent on torturing us with his banal digital presence for three films in a row.


MatthewJer18
Rohan

Oct 14 2013, 12:21am

Post #9 of 21 (252 views)
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I think Lurtz's mindlessness and single-purpose drive made him feel less pain [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 14 2013, 12:23am

Post #10 of 21 (241 views)
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Yes, The Balrog is more badass [In reply to] Can't Post

He would take out both Lurtz and Azog if they annoyed him enough. Laugh Also, the Balrog is a demon, whereas Azog, who might be a boldog, is a lesser-demon compared to the Balrog. Lurtz was a man-made orc for the most part (but one has to admit, he's got attitude.)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 14 2013, 1:21am

Post #11 of 21 (285 views)
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All true. I do think Lurtz abnormally high pain tolerance makes him more of a problem for Azog. [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog dropped to his knees screaming when he lost his hand. Lurtz lost an arm and kept ticking like a timex. That difference in reaction would have allowed Azog to do what Thorin inexplicably did not, and stab Azog about twenty more times. Of course the Balrog would have swept them both into The Void with one swing of that enchanted Fire Sword, and that is even without the spells he could cast on them. lol

In Reply To
He would take out both Lurtz and Azog if they annoyed him enough. Laugh Also, the Balrog is a demon, whereas Azog, who might be a boldog, is a lesser-demon compared to the Balrog. Lurtz was a man-made orc for the most part (but one has to admit, he's got attitude.)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


The Mitch King
Rohan


Oct 14 2013, 3:24am

Post #12 of 21 (219 views)
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Welp [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
When Azog gets his arm chopped off he cries like a little baby. When Lurtz gets his arm chopped off he doesn't even flinch. This concludes the debate.


"Badass" is SOOOO subjective. IMO, Lurtz having a dysfunctional nervous system doesn't mean he is a badass, it means he is lacking a critical survival need. Maybe he would still have his head if he did... WinkSly


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Oct 14 2013, 2:41pm

Post #13 of 21 (172 views)
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LOL. But it depends. [In reply to] Can't Post

Did Lurtz make no sound because he was stoic enough to ignore the pain, or because Saruman had done enough tinkering in the genetic engineering department that Lurtz really and truly felt nothing? If it's the former, my vote's for Lurtz. (He looks a lot scarier to me, anyway, with that white hand splashed across his face.) If it's the latter, I'm undecided.

Also, props to Lurtz for having a weapon *other* than a mace/flail. Because after seeing the Witch-king, Sauron, and Azog all use the same weapon, I am beginning to wonder if a mace is the General Evil Dude's weapon for Middle-earth. Crazy Lurtz at least showed some individuality.

Agreed, though, that the Balrog would defeat them both. Now, my question is, could Smaug defeat the Balrog? Laugh Laugh Laugh

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


imin
Valinor


Oct 14 2013, 8:06pm

Post #14 of 21 (131 views)
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Lurtz for me [In reply to] Can't Post

He looks way more real and that's no surprise really - its an actual person fighting Aragorn rather than CGI.

His design in my opinion is more creepy and his lack of emotions is more intimidating to me than Azog's all out rage. I also like how Lurtz is really just a face to the orcs who capture Merry and Pippin and kill Boromir where as they totally change what's going on with Azog and to the detriment of AUJ.

Basically Lurtz - looks more badass, acts more badass - Is more badass Tongue

'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 12:47am

Post #15 of 21 (105 views)
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Gothmog The Balrog had a battle axe! [In reply to] Can't Post

Though some of the Balrogs also used. . . maces. Unsure lol

Wow, I don't know? Smaug has an extreme size advantage, being a hundreds of feet Godzolla weight division lol. I don't know how effective fire would be on a demon with such a strong affinity for flame. There is also the Balrogs powerful sorcery to consider.
Yeah, I am just going to walk away from that particular comparison. Too much of a headache.

In Reply To
Did Lurtz make no sound because he was stoic enough to ignore the pain, or because Saruman had done enough tinkering in the genetic engineering department that Lurtz really and truly felt nothing? If it's the former, my vote's for Lurtz. (He looks a lot scarier to me, anyway, with that white hand splashed across his face.) If it's the latter, I'm undecided.

Also, props to Lurtz for having a weapon *other* than a mace/flail. Because after seeing the Witch-king, Sauron, and Azog all use the same weapon, I am beginning to wonder if a mace is the General Evil Dude's weapon for Middle-earth. Crazy Lurtz at least showed some individuality.

Agreed, though, that the Balrog would defeat them both. Now, my question is, could Smaug defeat the Balrog? Laugh Laugh Laugh


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 12:48am

Post #16 of 21 (108 views)
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I actually found Azog to be very creepy looking with all those faces he makes, however [In reply to] Can't Post

I COMPLETELY agree on the rest of what is written here. THe changes sickened me.

In Reply To
He looks way more real and that's no surprise really - its an actual person fighting Aragorn rather than CGI.

His design in my opinion is more creepy and his lack of emotions is more intimidating to me than Azog's all out rage. I also like how Lurtz is really just a face to the orcs who capture Merry and Pippin and kill Boromir where as they totally change what's going on with Azog and to the detriment of AUJ.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 15 2013, 6:42am

Post #17 of 21 (89 views)
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For me, the saving grace of Azog is that ... [In reply to] Can't Post

His personal revenge against Thorin is *very* real and *very* believable; regardless of the timeline changes.

Lurtz, on the other hand, was only after the Hobbits because Saruman told him to. It's just not the same. There's no connection between Lurtz or the Fellowship.That last scene of FOTR is still full of emotion, but Lurtz could have been anyone, really. Any unnamed Orc (or even Ringwraith!) could have done the job.

I think they hit the nail on the head with Azog. I do wonder why he cowers in pain when Thorin chops his hand off though. Isn't he supposed to be 'ard?



Starling
Half-elven


Oct 15 2013, 6:56am

Post #18 of 21 (89 views)
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Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote

Isn't he supposed to be 'ard?


Maybe, but not as 'ard as these blokes.





Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Oct 15 2013, 7:53am

Post #19 of 21 (82 views)
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I am watching FOTR again [In reply to] Can't Post

though this time new blue ray discs and again I must say that everything looks far more realistic, natural and authentic to me, including Azog/Lurtz. Lurtz is really menacing, his presence represence a real threat while Azog always looked too fake and cartoonish to me. I will not say who would win in battle between them because everyone has its own opinion but if I would have to choose which one do I find more dangerous I would certanly pick Lurtz.

Modern times and improved technology can also have its deficiencies.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 15 2013, 2:03pm

Post #20 of 21 (61 views)
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Azog as "Boldog"... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Also, the Balrog is a demon, whereas Azog, who might be a boldog, is a lesser-demon compared to the Balrog.


Did Tolkien make this connection somewhere, or is this just speculation on your part? Because I cannot recall reading anything that would point to Azog possibly being one of the Ainur.

As far as I'm aware, he's simply a huge Orc with an iron-clad head.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Oct 15 2013, 2:38pm

Post #21 of 21 (55 views)
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If it's a question of sorcery... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wow, I don't know? Smaug has an extreme size
advantage, being a hundreds of feet Godzolla weight division lol. I don't know how effective fire would be on a demon with such a strong affinity for flame. There is also the Balrogs powerful sorcery to consider. Yeah, I am just going to walk away from that particular comparison. Too much of a headache.







Weren't some of the dragons originally Maiar (like Glaurung, etc.) or am I just dreaming this up? If that is the case, Smaug *might* be able to given the Balrog some competition in the sorcery department. After all, Glaurung could hypnotize and wipe memories with his eyes; Smaug is never shown doing that, but perhaps it never suited his purposes or he had no opportunity? Then again, we're never shown the full capabilities and skills of either Balrogs or dragons.

And, if Balrogs had wings and could fly, I'd still say Smaug would be better at aerial maneuvers. Tongue


"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."

 
 

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