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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
AUJ Witch King/Necromancer encounter all a sham? (Mild Spoilers)
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Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 11 2013, 9:39pm

Post #1 of 32 (1248 views)
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AUJ Witch King/Necromancer encounter all a sham? (Mild Spoilers) Can't Post

A post on this forum got me thinking about Raddy's (brief) encounter with the WK. Could it be the whole thing was staged by Sauron to begin orchestrating his move to Mordor?

I mean, the massive host of armies (It can't be a flashback or dream sequence) outside Dol Guldur wasn't made in an instant. Sauron must've been long planning his eventual return to the limelight and by having the Witch King "lose" a morgul blade could create an effective diversion for the White Council. This easily explains Gandalf's line in the DOS trailer and TV Spot 3: "In our blindness... Our enemy has returned/enemy is preparing for war."

I for one just can't believe the Witch King would drop something major like his own morgul blade because of one staff stroke by an insane Wizard. I mean Galadriel knows in a heartbeat who the sword belongs to. Surely Sauron wouldn't have let his most significant servant be so clumsy?

This leads me to Radagast. It could very well have been that Sauron sent spiders to Rhosgobel to lure Radagast into entering Dol Guldur. Then when Raddy enters DG, Sauron has the WK "lose" the sword and then exposes his "shadow" or whatever that was - causing Radagast to obviously flee and seek help. The fact that the "Necromancer" utters Raddy's name (I think this much was clear after many repeat viewings) suggests this was an elaborate plan to have Radagast specifically deliver his crazy and insane discoveries to Gandalf or the WC.

One thing I do not quite understand about this theory is why would Sauron choose Radagast?

Now this may all sound like a stretch but speculation never hurts :) One thing we all do know is that Sauron deals in illusions and tricks - I had always read the "eye" as not being the physical manifestion of Sauron but an image of fear. Even in the movies I still always imagine Sauron sitting in a dark room in Barad-Dur - a shadow of a being (like AUJ) and conjuring this flaming eye atop the tower to see beyond the confines of his physical limits. This trickery is suggested by the DOS annual that said Gandalf sees things that aren't really there. Could possible be the same shape Raddy saw in AUJ haunting Gandalf (He can't be THAT frightened - because he sure does look scared - by an orc or any creature).

Just unbelievably excited by all the possibilities. December cannot come soon enough.


Barrow-Wight
Rohan


Oct 11 2013, 11:38pm

Post #2 of 32 (532 views)
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I hope [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope that happens that's a great theory!


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 11:49pm

Post #3 of 32 (564 views)
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I think you underestimate Radagast. Sauron's original plan was a war on The Elves and The North. "And the power of Sauron is still less than fear makes it." [In reply to] Can't Post

There are off chance possibilities. . . this is one. That Radagast didn't escape dol Guldur and the one the dwarves encounter is a subverted imposter is another. I doubt both. I have thought on this before. It would NOT serve Sauron's purpose to give ANYTHING away. In this filmic universe where the Wise have not bothered much with Dol Guldur, where, at most, Gandalf maybe came there many years ago and drove some orcs away from a dying dwarf, but could find nothing more sinister, what sense would it make for Sauron to give ANYTHING away. It would make far more sense to keep The Wise busy with lesser evils in places far from his own lair, than to bring them directly to himself.

The Witch-King at this phase especially was a terror, but far from infallible (even at his height he was not so, for did he not fail to claim the Ring when Frodo and it were in his very clutches? The Ring was more valuable than any blade of his, and neither Frodo nor Aragorn had the power of an Istari, even a slightly loony one). Admittedly, I wish that the decisive staff strike Radagast delivered had come complete with some slight pulse of force or burst of light (perhaps a lesser, golden hued equivalent of what happened when Gandalf strikes the various stones and stone constructs) to drive home the fact that it was magical force, not merely a well aimed swing, that dispelled the manifestation of the wraith. Nevertheless, I think it is fair enough to believe that any one of the Istari would have been at least capable of fending off and disarming any one of the Nazgul, particularly at this much weaker stage in their existence when the power of the Ring was not yet fully awakened.

Also, the story doesn't work well if Gandalf's entire discovery is worthless. As with the actual history, some plan of Sauron's has to be disrupted by the meddling of the Wizard, and it should be, to my thought ( I mean to post a little further on this latter). Sauron intended to begin his great war with an assault on his chief enemies, The Elven Wise in the North. Even without using Unfinished Tales, the LOTR Appendices make clear that Gandalf knew, from his forays into Dol Guldur, that Sauron was preparing war and intended to strike the Elves as soon as he felt strong enough. He was pushing the Council to disrupt Sauron's plan. Forseeing an attack, Sauron began preparing Mordor against such a stroke, but the fact remains, his original plan was to assail The Elf lands, and if not for the discovery of those plans and the movement to counter them by Gandalf, that is exactly what he would have done.

In Reply To
A post on this forum got me thinking about Raddy's (brief) encounter with the WK. Could it be the whole thing was staged by Sauron to begin orchestrating his move to Mordor?

I mean, the massive host of armies (It can't be a flashback or dream sequence) outside Dol Guldur wasn't made in an instant. Sauron must've been long planning his eventual return to the limelight and by having the Witch King "lose" a morgul blade could create an effective diversion for the White Council. This easily explains Gandalf's line in the DOS trailer and TV Spot 3: "In our blindness... Our enemy has returned/enemy is preparing for war."

I for one just can't believe the Witch King would drop something major like his own morgul blade because of one staff stroke by an insane Wizard. I mean Galadriel knows in a heartbeat who the sword belongs to. Surely Sauron wouldn't have let his most significant servant be so clumsy?

This leads me to Radagast. It could very well have been that Sauron sent spiders to Rhosgobel to lure Radagast into entering Dol Guldur. Then when Raddy enters DG, Sauron has the WK "lose" the sword and then exposes his "shadow" or whatever that was - causing Radagast to obviously flee and seek help. The fact that the "Necromancer" utters Raddy's name (I think this much was clear after many repeat viewings) suggests this was an elaborate plan to have Radagast specifically deliver his crazy and insane discoveries to Gandalf or the WC.

One thing I do not quite understand about this theory is why would Sauron choose Radagast?

Now this may all sound like a stretch but speculation never hurts :) One thing we all do know is that Sauron deals in illusions and tricks - I had always read the "eye" as not being the physical manifestion of Sauron but an image of fear. Even in the movies I still always imagine Sauron sitting in a dark room in Barad-Dur - a shadow of a being (like AUJ) and conjuring this flaming eye atop the tower to see beyond the confines of his physical limits. This trickery is suggested by the DOS annual that said Gandalf sees things that aren't really there. Could possible be the same shape Raddy saw in AUJ haunting Gandalf (He can't be THAT frightened - because he sure does look scared - by an orc or any creature).

Just unbelievably excited by all the possibilities. December cannot come soon enough.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 12:39am

Post #4 of 32 (499 views)
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I [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the staff strike, was a bit of an Homage to Sauron/Saruman's death with the white mist-ghost dissipating in the wind...


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 2:27am

Post #5 of 32 (425 views)
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A598 & AO! soomuch to contemplate...Must Take TIME? [In reply to] Can't Post

to process, since Such Erudite writing!
Bomby needz to think on this fur
some Time!

Brillant, and Even more ..BRILLANT
for anyone HERE to,,,,read,
your Thinkin' ..

Bomby will get Back to YouzGuys soon...
Isn't TORn wonderful
or WHAT?


burgahobbit
Rohan


Oct 12 2013, 2:39am

Post #6 of 32 (419 views)
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That's a cool thought Faleel [In reply to] Can't Post

I also like the idea of Sauron luring them into a trap. Perhaps (and bear with me because I haven't seen the latest trailers, only heard about snippets from them so I'm not entirely in on everything here)....perhaps Sauron wants the White Council to enter Dol Guldur so that he can deal with them himself, as his army rushes off to attack the Woodland Realm. (I heard that there was a big army in the trailer so I'm just grabbing at straws here I guess. Sorry if this is a useless post.)


Mad Hatter of Middle-Earth
Lorien


Oct 12 2013, 2:45am

Post #7 of 32 (402 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree more so with you. I too believe that Radagast should not be underestimated. I also share your wish that a burst of light or energy could be seen when Radagast disarms the Witchking. Excellent response!

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that has been given to you...


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Oct 12 2013, 3:31am

Post #8 of 32 (388 views)
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I like this [In reply to] Can't Post

I like your theory for the way it echoes Radagasts's role in the book FOTR, where a bad guy, in that case Saruman, uses Radagast to deceive Gandalf. I could imagine PJ and co. wanting to adapt and insert the Radagast storyline from FOTR into these movies.

Why would Sauron choose Radagast? Because he's close to Dol Goldur and because he might be a bit impressionable/ gullible (or may be revealed to be so. In AUJ it's hard to tell whether Raddy may be gullible.)

What I would like to know is, what do you theorize to be Sauron's reason for wanting to draw Gandalf's or the WC's attention to Dol Goldur? What do you reckon Sauron is up to?

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;


Ruxendil_Thoorg
Grey Havens


Oct 12 2013, 4:01am

Post #9 of 32 (391 views)
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Sauron's arrogance [In reply to] Can't Post

AO, you're right in saying Radagast should not be underestimated, and in saying that Sauron would be foolish to give anything away. I too would wonder why Sauron would want to draw Gandalf or the WC's attention to Dol Goldur. I asked the same question in reply to the OP.

I'm not sure it's Annatar598 who is doing the underestimating, though. Perhaps what he is suggesting is that Sauron has underestimated Radagast in choosing him. Underestimating the good guys out of arrogance is one of Sauron's canon character flaws.

In book FOTR, Saruman chose to use Radagast as a way to deceive Gandalf. However, things did not go as Saruman planned, and Radagast ended up indirectly saving Gandalf from Saruman by directing Gwaihir toward isengard. Maybe in the movies Sauron will make a similar error that allows for Radagast to save Gandalf, directly or indirectly, and thus allow Gandalf to make a meaningful discovery that would lead to thwarting Sauron's plan.

A bag is like a hole that you can carry with you.

http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_expanded;


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 4:50am

Post #10 of 32 (374 views)
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A fair point, Faleel, though likely to be lost on the general audience. Bomby, Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

very much and I look forward to your response. Words from the other Ainur are an inspiration. *smile*

In Reply To
to process, since Such Erudite writing!
Bomby needz to think on this fur
some Time!

Brillant, and Even more ..BRILLANT
for anyone HERE to,,,,read,
your Thinkin' ..

Bomby will get Back to YouzGuys soon...
Isn't TORn wonderful
or WHAT?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 4:50am

Post #11 of 32 (370 views)
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My thanks to you. Glad you enjoyed the post. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I agree more so with you. I too believe that Radagast should not be underestimated. I also share your wish that a burst of light or energy could be seen when Radagast disarms the Witchking. Excellent response!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 5:18am

Post #12 of 32 (384 views)
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Excellent thoughts but [In reply to] Can't Post

As Ruxendil mentioned, I was totally not underestimating Radagast. In fact I believe Raddy has a serious part to play in sorting out this Dol Guldur mess.

Sauron's "arrogance" as Ruxendil stated is ultimately the cause for his demise so his underestimating of Raddy as a bumbling fool falls totally in line with who Sauron is (this underestimating is quite similar to the treatment Radagast gets from Saruman).

As for Sauron not wanting to reveal "ANYTHING" I'm not quite so sure. The cat would have already been out of the bag mere weeks after the events of AUJ (as DOS will cover fewer days than AUJ in this filmverse - at least I don't see how it can't). Sending a massive army out of Mirkwood would cause plenty of woodland commotion I would imagine.

This I believe ties directly into the "trap" Gandalf walks into in Dol Guldur.

Perhaps Sauron's entire purpose here was to dislocate the White Council - luring who Sauron probably knows is the nosiest member (none other than Gandalf) into a trap and keeping him from interfering with his grand plans. This way he can make Gandalf's trap a distraction for the White Council. Cue Galadriel - it would be perfect for Sauron to play on the White Council's unity here. Everything could be well timed with Sauron keeping Galadriel and Gandalf busy while undergoing a very risky and ambitious relocation.

Radagast is a wild card, I'm not quite so sure with what to do with him. Like I said I do not underestimate him - I fully expect him to be a part of the Galadriel/Gandalf/Sauron ordeal. This ties into what Sly Mcoy said about wizards fighting "some evil."

We all know Sauron as a mastermind of planning, I've always imagined his move from Dol Guldur to Barad-Dur to have been a very significant and epic moment because he has to cover so much without being detected. That army could again be an indication of many things, it could be Sauron's own personal guard escorting him to Mordor (an offshot) OR it could be a part of an even more elaborate plan: making his move to Mordor even more foolproof by having this army sent to Erebor with signs that he himself might be directly involved with the attack. This would be his PERFECT escape. He wasn't kicked out of Dol Guldur, he left in his own time and way after many years of planning. This also ties into what Cumberbatch says about the Necromancer appearing at the BOFA - it's all a trick. I sincerely doubt Sauron would physically go into battle after learning his mistake with physical combat the first time round.

With the perfect timing, Sauron could crush the White Council in one swift move. I do believe he knows Gandalf is the one who must be dealt with. Maybe this "trap" was to off him but then Sauron being the arrogant prick he is doesn't account for Radagast's bravery in attempting to save Gandalf.

Now this could all be wrong but speculation is fun. And as far as DOS goes we really know NOTHING given how much PJ and Co have changed the source material. Anything and everything is pure speculation.

I personally believe that a FOURTH visit to Dol Guldur (after three unsuccessful ones) would be simply shoddy writing. The battle of Dol Guldur should happen during the "trap" Sauron set for Gandy. It makes for a personal battle between the wise and powerful of ME and a very ruthless and cunning enemy. Having there be a proper finale to Dol Guldur would be anticlimactic. This would be the best possible way to creat sufficient tension by keeping one beloved character's life in grave danger.

Sauron achieves SO MUCH with this plan.
- He covers his relocation to Mordor
- Disables the White Council in pure badass fashion (I mean Gandalf IS the only active member. You have Elrond the skeptic, Radagast the "fool," Saruman the blind, and Galadriel who has no active and physical role in the filmverse)
- Launches an attack on Erebor (ulterior motive to deal with Smaug?)
- This all is essentially a grand declaration of his return, I cannot imagine it being anymore frightening and cool In any other way.


(This post was edited by Annatar598 on Oct 12 2013, 5:19am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 6:00am

Post #13 of 32 (372 views)
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My long thoughts on this.. .. All this is possible, but it still begs the question of what Sauron would gain [In reply to] Can't Post

from revealing himself too early. He had been working very hard to conceal himself, preparing his war against the Elves and then Middle-Earth. In the histories, Gandalf's prying and prodding forced Sauron to scrap that potent plan in favour of returning to Mordor, and even in that, though he had already began laying the contingency plans, he was rushed into doing, as it was another decade before he declared himself and Barad-Dur was still not fully reconstructed, and certainly had he been able to crush the Council when they arrived in Dol Guldur, he would have. In the movies that timeframe will be even longer. It will be over 60 years before Mount Doom erupts again and Barad-Dur comes near to completion. If you are really ahead in your planning, then five decades later and more, we will not find you still putting the hinges on your doors and the storm shutters on your windows if we drop by unannounced. Sauron stays ahead of the Council, but from the moment Gandalf makes his second visit to Dol Guldur, it is always just a step or two ahead, never far enough for him to rest on his laurels or to tie up all of the loose ends. Right through the siege on Minas Tirith he is constantly pushed to move either on a different course than his initial, more sound plans, or sooner than he wishes.

Admittedly the movie version of events may differ wildly, but consider. While Sauron, plans still far from complete, COULD be trying to draw Council members in one by one to nab them each in turn, it seems unlikely and frought with risk. If even one escapes, or an ally of one (the birds of Radagast, for example) then his entire attempt at a secret return to power and an unleashing of war unlooked for upon his foes is set to the winds.

More likely is this: Radagast lives in Mirkwood. Sauron has remained entirely secret for as long as he can, but his increasing power, presence, and population of regional servants is starting to have an effect on the surrounding area. Radagast would be the first to notice this, as he does. Sauron attempts to do something about Radagast before Radagast starts puzzling things together (as he does) and goes running his mouth to other, even more dangerous and serious foes (which he will/shall do).

I wouldn't be surprised if Rhosgobel has some charms in place for purely supernatural foes, and I doubt Sauron would want to unleash the likes of Wraiths too soon. He sends a hit team to Radagast's home. I.E. the obvious set up in An Unexpected. Sauron assumes Radagast to be a sentimental fool. Sebastian was meant to be a bait and distraction. In Sauron's view, Radagast, seen as a damn dummy, will focus his powers on healing the cursed and sickened animals, and while he is caught up in that, a hundred pounds of spider can drop on him, fill him with venom, wrap him up and drag him back to Dol Guldur on Sauron's terms. Radagast proves a little more nimble and capable at his craft than is hoped for by his enemies. He heals his woodland friend, and springs up, ready for action. The spiders are not interested in combat with an Istari on fair terms and go on their way. Instead of calling it a close one, the seemingly but not actually all that absent minded Radagast checks into things further.

Now Sauron has a problem. Radagast is more onto him than he would have been based solely on a pile up of death in the forest. Something has to be done with Radagast. Enter setting up a trap for when the Wizard comes a looking. See Nazgul (an army would be a give away), and Nazgul. It is of note that the Nazgul do not attack Radagast in a forward manner. The obvious intent was to take him unawares and be done. Now the ship of keeping him from alerting others of the Wise has sailed. However, Sauron likely knows Radagast isn't as widely respected in certain lofty circles as other. The most likely person to inspect further would be Gandalf, the alarmist meddler. He would be taken seriously, but maybe if he dissapears before he can make assertions, it will at least buy time, as the other Wise might first be tempted to assume he has simply been delayed or at worst fallen to one of the many perils unrelated or only very tangentially related to Sauron, that The Wanderer is always engaging in his ceaseless tinkering and adventuring. If Radagast and Gandalf are out of the picture, it leaves a much reduced council (especially since most of the other CalaQuendi Eldar we know and love like Glorfindel stay M.I.A. in these revisionist script adaptations), so that even if they don't keep coming in ones and twos for him to manage piecemeal, they would already be most of the way to being too few to withstand him, even together. Begin laying trap for Gandalf, newsflash to the Nazgul (or who/mwhatever), the Gray Wizard is going to prove tougher than the Brown one did (hellow big Billy Goat). From there, what is a Necromancer to do? Hope the Council stays away long enough for you to unleash your war anyway, and if they don't try to nullify them, and should that fail, relocate to Mordor and make a different war plan with a new South starter stratagem.

We don't know that Sauron was going to movie his army through Mirkwood at that time. The Army assailing Erebor might still have come from Gundabad and The Misty mountains.

As to The Witch-King... barring that disgusting lie in EE of the last film... he is frankly even less effective and efficient in Fellowship than the textual counterpart. At least in the annals of The Third Age, Proper, The Witch-King had some better excuses for his failure to take the Ring when it was right in front of him. That Witch-King was mere days out from a taxing all night duel against one of the more formidable Istari Wizards, AND he had a powerful, indeed one of the mightiest, Elf Lord on his heels. In the movie. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Aragorn and four hobbits (no disrespect to the son of Arathorn). Gandalf still isolated up on Saruman's tower roof, Arwen hours away and evidently not as big on chasing off Nazgul as Glorfindel, Glorfindel seemingly on vacation in Lindon, moonbathing at his coastal home overlooking The Gulf of Luane (Lune). Aragorn, sans an Angelic spirit, limited incarnation or no, and with no magic wand or Wizard powers to speak of, gets him to leave the Ring and his knife soooooooooooo. Yae, I can see one of THe Five Wizards managing to fend him off and disarming him at this weaker stage in his being. You could have it all right, but I think there is plenty of room for Sauron to not be quite THAT far ahead in his planning. (an inside informant assured me that at least the four seniormost members of The Council are going to escape whatever goes on in Dol Guldur Wink )


Your hypothesis is very well thought out, and I applaud you for it, yet I think there are weak points (as there were with Sauron's plans). Bear and mind, and this is important (and may change in the films cause CrazyCrazyCrazy revisionists), Sauron was NOT originally planning to leave for Barad-Dur first. That was his secondary plan, and he only began shifting to it AFTER Gandalf fully discovered him in Dol Guldur. In the actual histories, there is about a hundred years of pivot time between that revelation and The Hobbit. Here it happens all at once. If Gandalf's discovery and the council's actions are to prove wholly irrelevant, then the Necromancer plot might as well have been left from these films, and the council can discover Sauron's return in the Fellowship timeline with no real change in consequence, unless the whole point of this excursion has been to introduce and then sideline Radagast and his rabbits. Unsure

In Reply To
AO, you're right in saying Radagast should not be underestimated, and in saying that Sauron would be foolish to give anything away. I too would wonder why Sauron would want to draw Gandalf or the WC's attention to Dol Goldur. I asked the same question in reply to the OP.

I'm not sure it's Annatar598 who is doing the underestimating, though. Perhaps what he is suggesting is that Sauron has underestimated Radagast in choosing him. Underestimating the good guys out of arrogance is one of Sauron's canon character flaws.

In book FOTR, Saruman chose to use Radagast as a way to deceive Gandalf. However, things did not go as Saruman planned, and Radagast ended up indirectly saving Gandalf from Saruman by directing Gwaihir toward isengard. Maybe in the movies Sauron will make a similar error that allows for Radagast to save Gandalf, directly or indirectly, and thus allow Gandalf to make a meaningful discovery that would lead to thwarting Sauron's plan.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Oct 12 2013, 6:08am)


Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 7:10am

Post #14 of 32 (367 views)
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Canon vs PJ and Co [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, great thoughts!!

It makes me so much more excited about the whole DG subplot because anything can happen. I guess it's one good thing about all these massive changes that we don't really know what will happen.

I hope you're right and the films follow the canon version of what happened. Though a lingering doubt in my mind exists. This whole DG subplot has been so radically changed - it can be analyzed in any possible way. Why would anyone want to change something that has already been well-established in the source materiel? Whatever PJ ends up doing (Which I'm sure will be invented) won't match the canon of it. Sauron has been overly Hollywoodized. From the visual white-ghost Nazgul attack to the extremely.... Hollywood shadow that the camera zooms into like some amateur horror film, I don't think we'll get anything like what Tolkien wrote about DG. That cartoonish scene of Thrain leaping over Gandy is an example. Zombies should be an indication that this is not going to follow canon at all.

Again AO, I don't mean to discredit your hypothesis (To be honest I find it more structured and appealing), but sadly this will be another entirely invented (reinvented?) storyline ignoring the already established canon. Quite sad but I guess it would work with the general audience.

To me, whatever happens will seem like a bridging device to connect LOTR and TH. Since there is no mention of Dol Guldur or what happened there in the movies, PJ practically has justification enough to do whatever he wants.

As long as we get to see Gandalf kick ass, (I honestly don't know what it is with me and seeing Gandy battle, It's just so cool...) I guess I won't mind the butchering of a plot that ALREADY works really well in the books.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Oct 12 2013, 8:07am

Post #15 of 32 (331 views)
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All good points [In reply to] Can't Post

A key factor alluded to by Tolkien and discussed elsewhere is fate and/or intervention by a higher power.

Fate, like Isildur losing the Ring in the Anduin causing his death and the Ring falling out of gollums pocket only to have Bilbo find it shortly thereafter. Both setting up a chain of events leading to Saurons demise.

Why would the WK dropping a dagger be any different?

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 8:21am

Post #16 of 32 (324 views)
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Quite true [In reply to] Can't Post

While the Ring had more of an influence in slipping through Isildur's fingers or leaving Gollum - I guess fate could have played a part here with the dagger. But then again, it's an easy explanation in my view - I don't think the Ring can be compared to a morgue blade given the ring itself is a character in metaphysical way.

Why the Witch King attacked Raddy in the first place is confusing to me. Why wouldn't Sauron have let Dol Guldur appear empty as he had when Gandalf was there and retrieved the key from Thrain? That particular event cannot have been so long ago.

It's something that bothers me. I can only imagine that the whole thing was staged - something Sauron does VERY well. I know I'm speculating too much here but I guess I want to believe in this filmverse that Sauron is playing the White Council for fools (which they are - even in the appendices it appears so. Tolkien draws an interesting parallel between the events in ME and what was going on before WWII).


Yngwulff
Gondor


Oct 12 2013, 8:31am

Post #17 of 32 (324 views)
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Ring vs Morgul blade [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not saying the Blade was acting of it's own accord like the Ring, but fate guided by a higher power may have caused the WK to inadvertantly drop it. The Ring was semi sentient ... I do not thnk the Morgul Blade was even remotely so.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 8:35am

Post #18 of 32 (316 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien did allude a lot to fate... In his own work. This is invented stuff - I don't think PJ and Co would leave it up to fate for the blade to drop. Again, only speculating.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 10:04am

Post #19 of 32 (313 views)
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Thanks! And on what you state in this post, you are probably right (for good or ill lol) I [In reply to] Can't Post

continue to hope for the best. Some of An Unexpected was as bad as anything I could have feared (go home Azog, you're dead), but other parts were less maimed than I worried they would be, and many points were pitch perfect, or even unexpectedly pleasant ( I loved the charming introduction of Radagast, even though he soon lost me for awhile with all that damned eyerolling and birdcrap).

I want to see Gandalf lay down some powerful magic as well, but not really anymore than what the books said of him. Clearly they mean to show Galadriel breaking Dol Guldur. Which is great, if everybody else gets their fair go at things. The novels speak specifically of Gandalf the Gray holding off all nine Wraith Kings from dusk until dawn with a display of enchanted flame and lightning (essentially) that scorched the whole of the hill top, and which Aragorn and Frodo saw from several miles off like "lightning that leaps up from the hilltop" (so no way it was something as simple as him lighting a ring of fire that any woodsman or dwarf could manage. lol Also, that type of blue flame display was a trademark of his. "I have all but written Gandalf is here in signs that all can read from Rivendell to the mouths of Anduin." I always thought it a bit of a cheat that the other films displayed astounding feats by Arwen and Saruman, but went almost too subtle with some of Gandalf's powers, usually by either entirely cutting out a scene, or attributing his work (the white horses) to other.

They were much more true to his abilities in The Hobbit. Here, they have a chance to imagine in almost anyway they choose his confrontation with The Nine Ringwraiths. It should be one of the most iconic AND awe-epic moments in the films, AND, unlike so many other things, it is ENTIRELY based in cannon, even if it is altered in timeline and location, but the confrotation itself is gospel. Soooooo, I would like to think that they are aware of it and will try to incorporate it in a proper way.

I do hope they stick mostly to the truth of Saurons intentions though. I will likely make a post on some of the reasons why this should be later, but the bottom line is, it makes for riveting material, and adds so much depth, history and relevancy to the overall history.

In Reply To
Wow, great thoughts!!

It makes me so much more excited about the whole DG subplot because anything can happen. I guess it's one good thing about all these massive changes that we don't really know what will happen.

I hope you're right and the films follow the canon version of what happened. Though a lingering doubt in my mind exists. This whole DG subplot has been so radically changed - it can be analyzed in any possible way. Why would anyone want to change something that has already been well-established in the source materiel? Whatever PJ ends up doing (Which I'm sure will be invented) won't match the canon of it. Sauron has been overly Hollywoodized. From the visual white-ghost Nazgul attack to the extremely.... Hollywood shadow that the camera zooms into like some amateur horror film, I don't think we'll get anything like what Tolkien wrote about DG. That cartoonish scene of Thrain leaping over Gandy is an example. Zombies should be an indication that this is not going to follow canon at all.

Again AO, I don't mean to discredit your hypothesis (To be honest I find it more structured and appealing), but sadly this will be another entirely invented (reinvented?) storyline ignoring the already established canon. Quite sad but I guess it would work with the general audience.

To me, whatever happens will seem like a bridging device to connect LOTR and TH. Since there is no mention of Dol Guldur or what happened there in the movies, PJ practically has justification enough to do whatever he wants.

As long as we get to see Gandalf kick ass, (I honestly don't know what it is with me and seeing Gandy battle, It's just so cool...) I guess I won't mind the butchering of a plot that ALREADY works really well in the books.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 10:27am

Post #20 of 32 (301 views)
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Because of the Powers involved, I don't even know that greater fate needed to factor in, as [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe it was required with the likes of say, Eowyn, Merry and the Witch-King.

Gandalf managed to break the sword of The Balrog (it is worth noting that in all the annals of The First Age, none of the High-Elves, despite also having awesome weapons, were ever said to have shattered the weapons of one of Morgoth's demon lieutenants, weapons that were certainly of a highly magical nature themselves. .. among other things because most swords don't just remain aflame all the day and night long, and which were wielded by beings very powerful in magic themselves. It is thus, not at all incredulous that Radagast would be able to disarm the Witch King of his Morgul Blade, especially at this stage when The Witch-King and Sauron are weaker than we find them in Fellowship, let alone Return of The King. When considering that battle, focus less on the Radagast who sucks on stickbugs and sleeps with mice, and more of the Radagast who filled a cottage with a voice deep enough to make the ground rumble. Radagast may look a silly old mess, but he is still a Power.

As to why Sauron didn't leave Dol Guldur empty... he DID make it look empty. Radagast didn't see anyone when he showed up. He felt something, but the place was dead and nothing stirred, until a wraith tried to stab him from behind a statue. And that goes to my notion. Sauron didn't mean for Radagast to escape, (perhaps), yet just letting him go wasn't an option. Radagast, unlike the others, already had something to go on. The Greenwood was sick, and in a way that seemingly went beyond whatever normal healing he had set in place. Add to that, a coordinated attack had been launched against him. With the coming of the spiders, the rest of The Wise might have spent years (too many), assuming that evil things had merely crept into the wood, but without knowing the cause. They don't investigate everything. Moria was cleared out of its Dwarven nation by a Balrog and orcs set up home and a shop there, Goblins infested the Misty Mountains. There were spooks, haunts, haints and wights in The Downs and dragons in the North. . . the world was full of bad things, some of them very bad and very powerful, but not necessarily tied to Sauron. The Wise worked to clear some of them out when it seemed they would become too great a threat, but they did not go around shedding light on every gloomy place. Sans Radagast, hardly anyone would have known that the southern end of Mirkwood where the Elves seldom ventured anyway, was now accursed if large spiders started moving in and causing everyone to steer clear of the place. Any death of wildlife would be associated with the nasty monsters that had moved in, but this alone would not be cause for The Wise to come poking around in Dol Guldur, So, getting Radagast silent might have proven very important to Sauron's plans, and it may just be that his servants were not yet up to the task.

In Reply To

Why the Witch King attacked Raddy in the first place is confusing to me. Why wouldn't Sauron have let Dol Guldur appear empty as he had when Gandalf was there and retrieved the key from Thrain? That particular event cannot have been so long ago.

It's something that bothers me. I can only imagine that the whole thing was staged - something Sauron does VERY well. I know I'm speculating too much here but I guess I want to believe in this filmverse that Sauron is playing the White Council for fools (which they are - even in the appendices it appears so. Tolkien draws an interesting parallel between the events in ME and what was going on before WWII).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 10:33am

Post #21 of 32 (309 views)
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LOL [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL, Raddy lost me at the warg chase. The way he unintentionally circled the company like a buffoon was too much. I only like that scene for the impressive score - in fact it's the only reason I don't fast forward it. It's an important scene cinematically too since the film begins to lag after an hour of.... No tension. Still, could have done without Raddy being an idiot and not helping anyone.

I couldn't have asked for a better incarnation of Gandalf in AUJ. He was sweet, grumpy, funny, wise and a badass. My two favorite scenes in the film are his entrance in Goblin Town and him lighting the pinecones (the visuals against the moonlit sky were gorgeous). He was finally done justice. And yet I already know people asking if Gandalf goes through a Jedi-phase between TH and LOTR given his lack of physical and magical wizardry. My sister still doesn't understand how Gandalf the White can't display the same level of magic as Gandalf the Grey even though he "levels up." Some of that Goblin Town action was pretty damn good.

The fact that they went so far to hire an actor for Sauron worries me - motion capture and voice acting is a pretty big deal for a character who was basically a red eyeball in LOTR. I still hope that whatever PJ does is gonna be good. He's still a great storyteller despite Zombie Azog (though which was fallout for the three film split).


Annatar598
Rohan

Oct 12 2013, 10:55am

Post #22 of 32 (289 views)
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Excellent [In reply to] Can't Post

Analysis AO! Quite jealous of your knowledge.

Another thing I don't get is why would Sauron reveal himself (or whatever that was) to Radagast? It's not the wraith that scares the hell out of Radagast. It's a vague shadow far away calling his name. And it's this shadow that causes him to cross the misty mountains in such fury to speak to Gandalf. Had Sauron not shown himself, Raddy might not have reacted the same way. A wraith didn't seem like much of a threat to him given he easily disarmed it.

Surely Sauron would know that Radagast would escape and go seek help. If whatever it is that beats Gandalf so bad that he needs to be carried by Galadriel, is waiting for Gandalf in DOS then why didn't it also confront Radagast? It can't be that this thing, be it a wraith or all nine or even Sauron wasn't prepared to face Radagast when it does a good job of hurting Gandalf within a matter of a couple of weeks (or several days?)? I don't think Radagast escaped on his own - he was let go.

See this is why the DG subplot was underwhelming in AUJ. There was no conclusion to it - a high fells scene at the end of the film at the expense of one of the many stupid scenes in the film would have worked as a great transition into DOS, providing the audience with a mystery to think over. The White Council scene left too many loose ends for the movie to simply close on.


micha84
Rivendell

Oct 12 2013, 12:23pm

Post #23 of 32 (263 views)
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You might be on to something! [In reply to] Can't Post

What I really like about your line of thinking, is that it explains why the spiders that attacked Rhosgobel just went away like that. That never made much sense to me. They arrive, climb onto his house, scare him, and then just leave. The healing of the hedgehog surely has nothing to do with them backing off...

The idea that they were sent to get Radagast to investigate Dol Guldur would make a lot of sense of that scene!

The question remains, why Sauron would be so "foolish" to attract attention. I don't know how exactly it's going to play out, but I wouldn't be surprised if Sauron indeed wants Radagast to "escape", tell Gandalf about Dol Guldur and ultimately get the White Council to show up. He wants to declare himself, he wants to face down his enemies, he's been planning ahead, they haven't, it is now that he has an advantage. He knows a confrontation is going to come up anyway at some point, but now he would determine exactly when and where. If possible, he needs to get them to show up while they still have no idea about the forces he has ready to strike. He might indeed want the White Council to show up rather sooner than later. His army is probably ready, why wait any longer?


(This post was edited by micha84 on Oct 12 2013, 12:23pm)


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 12 2013, 12:56pm

Post #24 of 32 (261 views)
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Agree to Disagree... [In reply to] Can't Post

a) I would not say the whole thing was "staged" because Sauron originally wanted to attack the North where the elves are located (says in Appendix A of the ROTK book):

Quote
"Among many cares he was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. How then could the end of Smaug be achieved?"


b) I believe Gandalf (in the trailer and TV Spot) is merely referring to the fact that for 400 years they've been living in a "watchful peace" and, because they think everything is peaceful, they failed to notice that something had entered the fortress and evil has been slowly developing there.

c) In the books the Nazgul rely on fear, and do not use a blade until the last minute unless they really have to, but the main aim of the blade is to make the victim fall under their power, rather than to actually kill.
(This is explained by Gandalf to Frodo in the Many Meetings chapter in the FOTK book):

Quote
'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound.'

That would mean that for every victim, they would need another one so it would not matter about dropping the blade because they'd create another.

d) Concerning Radagast, I don't think the Necromancer was "luring" him in there, and that the reason for Radagast being in there was coincidental as he was merely wanting to find out why the spiders had attacked his house (and I believe that the spiders decided to attack his home on their own terms and because the wizard uttered a spell to bring the hedgehog to life, they backed off again).
The Necromancer does say "Radagast" when he appears, but (like in the Fellowship of the Ring when he says, "Aragorn... Elessar...") he is able to sense who people are - the filmmakers perhaps decided to add that into the film for audiences who have not yet seen the Lord of the Rings (or to remind those who have seen the trilogy this is what he can do).

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 12 2013, 1:06pm

Post #25 of 32 (266 views)
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Bomby tends to want to Write in simple sentences? [In reply to] Can't Post

At times the Game of MiddleEarthChess
is what is being played here.

This allegory was used by Gandalf at times
in MovieLOTR..."The Board izz set,
The pieces are... are Moving.."

If you drew yourself up to LOOK down
on MiddleEarth as a Map?

Sauron & Saruman were the ONEs playing everyone
as pawns, Knights, & Queens, gambling that THEIR Plans,
their Strategies work.
Many moves ahead of their opponents?

Most of your level of Thinking (A598&AO)seems from THAT perspective..

That's where you TOOK Bomby...
to think from a Map perspective?

Maybe that is why this forum needs TIME to digest...
Thang you Berry Buch, for taking anyone reading this
to..The Highest perspective.

Maybe a "WorldView" we need to observe from...?
at times.

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