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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Gandalf vs Sauron?
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boldog
Rohan

Oct 10 2013, 10:28am

Post #1 of 48 (905 views)
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Gandalf vs Sauron? Can't Post

This is something I really want to see in the Dol guldur story. I believe a confrontation of Gandalf the grey and Sauron in a physical humanoid form will really show the two big guys of each side of the tide fight it out. Sauron the BIG bad guy in middlearth, and Gandalf the BIG good guy in middle earth. It can be a really well choreographed fight, and I believe it can be done in a number of ways.
1. either during an assult on Dol guldur with the white council, the necromancer comes forth, and Gandalf fights him one on one.
2. same as above but including Radagast (who will be mortally wounded in the battle)
3. while he is investigating dol guldur alone
4 same as 3 but with radagast, who either dies, or escapes.
But personally Id rather one of the first two as it goes in more with a battle that is already taking place at the time, and gives more right for sauron to actually come out and fight.
Either way though, I believe Gandalf should get utterly smashed. Yep sorry Gandalf, but this is Sauron, the luitennant of Morgoth. Perhaps due to his injuries sustained in this duel, will be why Galadriel apparently carries him or comes to his aid??
and with Radagast, I believe if he takes part in this fight, he will be killed during it before Gandalf is defeated.
Btw I can sort of imagine music like this playing during the battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PouS6aAsD4I
From 3.43 I can see a scene where during The assult on dol guldur, Sauron appears in a physical form and is walking towards the onslaught. Gandalf looks on in horror, as sauron approaches him. Then at 4.14 they begin to duel it out. The music is perfect Sauron/Mordor/epic battle music which I believe will suite the scene well.
but who knows for all I know this all may never happen but what do you think anyway???

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 10 2013, 11:14am

Post #2 of 48 (494 views)
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No real physical form for Sauron, please. [In reply to] Can't Post

He only shows himself once in his physical form during the War of the Ring in the movie-verse, and this is when he shows himself to Aragorn in the Palantir.

I would be fine with the shadowy figure maybe getting a "clearer" shape (motion capture Crumberbatch), but not his armor-appearance from the FotR prologue in a "usual" one vs. one battle.

Yes, in the book Sauron probably has a physical form at least at the point he captures Gollum, but in the movie-verse it was clearly established that this would not be possible without the Ring. At least I have never talked to any casual fan or moviegoer who did not think that this was the deal with him.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


deskp
Lorien

Oct 10 2013, 11:17am

Post #3 of 48 (505 views)
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erk [In reply to] Can't Post

I am upset by everyone wanting to kill Radagast.

The lego set of Dol Guldur includes, Necromancer, Azog, Bolg, Radagast and Gandalf btw.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 10 2013, 11:25am

Post #4 of 48 (474 views)
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Where did you read this? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The lego set of Dol Guldur includes, Necromancer, Azog, Bolg, Radagast and Gandalf btw.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


deskp
Lorien

Oct 10 2013, 11:33am

Post #5 of 48 (473 views)
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"leaks" [In reply to] Can't Post

information about the upcoming lego sets have been leaking out over the last few days.

And we expect official pictures to start showing up relatively soon.


Remus
Lorien

Oct 10 2013, 12:42pm

Post #6 of 48 (418 views)
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I agree with you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have written like 4 times on these forums my anticipation for Gandalf vs. Sauron. I can't wait. I guess it will be Sauron who chases Gandalf out to the main hall were you can see Gandalf turns and hits something with his staff. And then 0.5 seconds after you see the Eye of Sauron.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 10 2013, 12:58pm

Post #7 of 48 (424 views)
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You mayBEE on to something because in the Trailer... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf runs and Then smashes this Staff
on something?
Then we get the EYE!


(This post was edited by Bombadil on Oct 10 2013, 1:00pm)


Elskidor
Rohan

Oct 10 2013, 1:10pm

Post #8 of 48 (413 views)
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Radagast is Sauron! [In reply to] Can't Post

It'll be a bigger shocker than the sixth sense.


Remus
Lorien

Oct 10 2013, 1:29pm

Post #9 of 48 (391 views)
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Yep, [In reply to] Can't Post

Like i said. I guess thats a huge hint. Gandalf fighting Sauron, hits him with the staff or block a spell/attack and then you see Saurons eye.


What would be even more cool & epic would be if we get to know how Sauron went from a ghost/wraith to that lidless eye. Just for the masses, myself i have already got a good explanation in my head.


Imladris18
Lorien


Oct 10 2013, 2:50pm

Post #10 of 48 (347 views)
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I know, I don't understand it either... [In reply to] Can't Post

I highly doubt he will die for a number of reasons.

Many around here think that the only explanation for characters not appearing in LotR is death >_>


Arandir
Gondor


Oct 10 2013, 5:27pm

Post #11 of 48 (296 views)
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If not Sauron, at least [In reply to] Can't Post

the Ringwraiths ... PJ owe's us the scene he skipped on Amon Sl in The Fellowship of the Ring Smile

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'

(This post was edited by Arandir on Oct 10 2013, 5:28pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 10 2013, 5:46pm

Post #12 of 48 (277 views)
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I'd rather not see any sort of one-on-one confrontation... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because I think it would diminish Sauron, even if he wins.

They thought of having him duel with Aragorn on RotK and decided against it, and I think that was a good decision which I hope they'll remember. The enemy in the shadows, whom you never quite see, but glimpse only as he is reflected in the apprehension shown by the other characters, is so much more powerful than the seen enemy - who, when it comes down to it, is just another bloke in a costume.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 10 2013, 7:09pm

Post #13 of 48 (254 views)
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Fear, grieve, doubts and misperception are Saurons weapons [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember the scene with the Mouth of Sauron in ROTK? Where he almost made Gandalf cry and belief that Frodo was indeed dead after being tortured under pain? Gandalf felt responsible for that.

"The halfling was dear to thee, I see. Know that he suffered greatly at the hands of his host. Who would've thought one so small could endure so much pain? And he did, Gandalf, he did."

And remember the scenes of Denethor (in the book) telling about the visions he had through the Palantir. The images weren't wrong but Sauron did not show the complete truth either but it was enough to turn Denethor mad and enough to corrupt Saruman.
Sauron does exactly know what Gandalfs weakness is. If they "fight" against each other than not with magic, not with weapons but with words. Sauron could Gandalf show images of the company (covered by spider-webs or even Thorin, Kili and Fili dying?) images which aren't wrong but also not the whole truth.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 10 2013, 11:57pm

Post #14 of 48 (220 views)
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Agree that there should be no face-off between the two... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it would be entirely out-of-character for Sauron to come out and duel Gandalf face-to-face. Sauron tended to have others do his fighting for him, especially while he was in recuperation mode during the Third Age.

I'm ok with Sauron making a fleeting appearance, but that's about it. And that is all I expect will be seen of him.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 11 2013, 12:04am

Post #15 of 48 (209 views)
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Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The images weren't wrong but Sauron did not show the complete truth either but it was enough to turn Denethor mad and enough to corrupt Saruman.


In the case of Saruman, he was already corrupted well before he looked into the Palantir, and even after he came into contact with Sauron, he still hoped to find the Ring for himself.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 1:08am

Post #16 of 48 (199 views)
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I am much more hopeful for a battle betwixt Gandalf and The Nine a la Amon Sul, yet I do agree that Sauron should be required for [In reply to] Can't Post

this beating Gandalf is supposed to take in the films. . . though I certainly don't hope to see Galadriel singlehandedly deliver a similar beat down onto Sauron himself Crazy

In Reply To
This is something I really want to see in the Dol guldur story. I believe a confrontation of Gandalf the grey and Sauron in a physical humanoid form will really show the two big guys of each side of the tide fight it out. Sauron the BIG bad guy in middlearth, and Gandalf the BIG good guy in middle earth. It can be a really well choreographed fight, and I believe it can be done in a number of ways.
1. either during an assult on Dol guldur with the white council, the necromancer comes forth, and Gandalf fights him one on one.
2. same as above but including Radagast (who will be mortally wounded in the battle)
3. while he is investigating dol guldur alone
4 same as 3 but with radagast, who either dies, or escapes.
But personally Id rather one of the first two as it goes in more with a battle that is already taking place at the time, and gives more right for sauron to actually come out and fight.
Either way though, I believe Gandalf should get utterly smashed. Yep sorry Gandalf, but this is Sauron, the luitennant of Morgoth. Perhaps due to his injuries sustained in this duel, will be why Galadriel apparently carries him or comes to his aid??
and with Radagast, I believe if he takes part in this fight, he will be killed during it before Gandalf is defeated.
Btw I can sort of imagine music like this playing during the battle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PouS6aAsD4I
From 3.43 I can see a scene where during The assult on dol guldur, Sauron appears in a physical form and is walking towards the onslaught. Gandalf looks on in horror, as sauron approaches him. Then at 4.14 they begin to duel it out. The music is perfect Sauron/Mordor/epic battle music which I believe will suite the scene well.
but who knows for all I know this all may never happen but what do you think anyway???


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 1:11am

Post #17 of 48 (216 views)
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That actually has never been established. Saruman's lines have often been read that way, but they are not qualified [In reply to] Can't Post

and did not have to mean that. "Cannot yet take physical form" has no caveat of "since his defeat in The Second Age,", it is just that in the films that is the only earlier time at which we saw him. Saruman could have as easily meant "since we drove him from Dol Guldur", within the context of the films, refferring to an event of which the movie audience was not aware.

In Reply To
He only shows himself once in his physical form during the War of the Ring in the movie-verse, and this is when he shows himself to Aragorn in the Palantir.

I would be fine with the shadowy figure maybe getting a "clearer" shape (motion capture Crumberbatch), but not his armor-appearance from the FotR prologue in a "usual" one vs. one battle.

Yes, in the book Sauron probably has a physical form at least at the point he captures Gollum, but in the movie-verse it was clearly established that this would not be possible without the Ring. At least I have never talked to any casual fan or moviegoer who did not think that this was the deal with him.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 1:18am

Post #18 of 48 (204 views)
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THIS! This is what I want. Give me a circle of blue flame warding off The Nine, and the stroke [In reply to] Can't Post

of lightning leaping up from the earth, and "such light and flame as has not been seen since the War Beacons of Olde," and Gandalf pushing back the Nine more awe inspiringly than ever Aragorn did (no disrespect to the Elessar), just as the book alludes to!

In Reply To
the Ringwraiths ... PJ owe's us the scene he skipped on Amon Sl in The Fellowship of the Ring Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 11 2013, 1:22am

Post #19 of 48 (206 views)
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Not going to happen [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 1:28am

Post #20 of 48 (202 views)
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If it doesn't it doesn't. It would be a wonderful incorporation of a scene from the text that [In reply to] Can't Post

was, unfortunately, left out of the earlier film trilogy due to constraints of the timeline they put in place regarding Saruman. They did initialy shoot some sequences related to it. There is an old image somewhere from that time of Amon Sul being struck by lightning, but it never went anywhere. The Nazgul are at Dol Guldur, and Gandalf will be there. It would be odd if they attacked Radagast but lay low when Gandalf does a much more thorough investigation. Again, it would be awesome to see, and a reall pass up on an iconic scene opportunity (one that actually is at least partly cannonical as oppsosed to some of the other things we will see). Yet, if it fails to materialize, oh well. I get the notion that you may be mocking more than actually sorry Wink Tongue, though I cannot understand the reason for such. But, as you will. We will simply see what happens. Do you have inside information on the script, however?

In Reply To
Sorry.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 11 2013, 1:40am

Post #21 of 48 (195 views)
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Not mocking [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm genuinely sorry, for you, because I know how much you would love a scene such as this. Nor do I think that it would be a bad thing. I just don't think there is any real chance that it will happen. More likely, based on the information reported in the DoS Annual, will be more cheesy Hollywood type magic (I don't have the quote at hand, but I suspect that Daniel or someone could produce it). I would rather have Gandalf not engage in any kind of magical acts of power than have him engage in cheesy ones. I thought that the scene on the Pellenor in which he chased off the Nazgul with light from his staff (instead of his hand) was not bad, though not great, and I wouldn't mind something like that. But I don't like what I have heard.

Of course, even authorized books like the Annual can get things wrong. That is my hope.


Edit: Here is the quote from the Annual:



Quote


Gandalf may do some of the following in Dol Guldur: unlock a gate; see things
that aren't really there/things appear other than they are; cast a spell making
it look like there's more than one of him; cast a protection spell; have to work
out where to walk as there are trick stones that lead to traps.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

(This post was edited by Voronw_the_Faithful on Oct 11 2013, 1:45am)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 11 2013, 2:09am

Post #22 of 48 (181 views)
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Not too sure about that myself... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that a fight between Gandalf and at least a few of the Nazgul is out of the question. We already know that in film-universe, the Witch-king is in Dol Guldur, so it might be that some or even all of the other Nazgul are there too. It has also been hinted that Gandalf will run into some trouble and possibly be incapacitated in Dol Guldur, so I wouldn't rule out a Gandalf/Nazgul confrontation just yet. No, it probably won't match the whole Amon Sul lightning display, but it definitely could be something spectacular, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be.

As long as there is no one-on-one duel between Gandalf and Sauron.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 2:39am

Post #23 of 48 (177 views)
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My apolgoies to you, sir ( I belive I am right in saying sir from past conversations, forgive me if this is in error), [In reply to] Can't Post

on suggesting that there was any jest or sting in your earlier summation, and I appreciate your clarifying. I also very much appreciate the sincere sentiment. I don't know that it will happen, and I am not expecting it, though I hold out hope. It seems almost like the most obvious thing, considering the fact that they have definitively placed the Nazgul in Dol Guldur, have already had one of them attack a Wizard with the infamous blade, are cobbling together Gandalf's investigation of and escape frm Dol Guldur, and certainly must know that Gandalf actually DOES have a legitimate, cannonical confrontation with The Nine Ringwraiths that would lift almost perfectly into this adaptation, without the need of changing anything aside from the timeline and the location from Amon Sul to this other more sinister ruin.

That said, I have experienced enough to know that there are some who sometimes behave very much of the train of not doing anything that is "too much like right," Crazy lol . With all the above facts in place, lifting the Amon Sul scene and relocating it to Dol Guldur almost goes without saying.. . which means there are at least even odds that they just won't do it. lol Unsure .

Other things that cause me to hold out hope are that both the wraiths and some of Gandalf's most impressive displays of supernatural force were witheld right up until the film in An Unexpected Jurney. I was anxious over how and whether the Goblin scene would be displayed, and while it was not quite as breathtaing an entrance as in the book (the lights first going out and then the pillar of blue fire in the darkness), it was still a very impressive, forceful and iconic entrance. A great scene really, right before the rest of the episode went into looneytoons and The Benny Hill show chase. Laugh Also, the attack by the Nazgul on Radagast was not shown in any pre-film trailer that I can recall. So it is quite possible that this astounding scene that only readers and their kith and kin would expect as a possibility, is being kept under tight lid as some of those scenes were. We shall see.

In Reply To
I'm genuinely sorry, for you, because I know how much you would love a scene such as this. Nor do I think that it would be a bad thing. I just don't think there is any real chance that it will happen. More likely, based on the information reported in the DoS Annual, will be more cheesy Hollywood type magic (I don't have the quote at hand, but I suspect that Daniel or someone could produce it). I would rather have Gandalf not engage in any kind of magical acts of power than have him engage in cheesy ones. I thought that the scene on the Pellenor in which he chased off the Nazgul with light from his staff (instead of his hand) was not bad, though not great, and I wouldn't mind something like that. But I don't like what I have heard.

Of course, even authorized books like the Annual can get things wrong. That is my hope.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Voronw_the_Faithful
Valinor

Oct 11 2013, 2:47am

Post #24 of 48 (173 views)
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No apologies necessary [In reply to] Can't Post

You were perfectly correct to not be sure whether I was being sincere, based on past experience. I'm sure that there will be times in the future when I will gently tweek you again. Smile

They did do a fairly good job of presenting Gandalf's arrival in the Goblin cave. But I still think that a battle between Gandalf and the Nazgul a la Amon Sul is outside the scope of the presentation of Gandalf that these filmmakers are making.

But I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 11 2013, 4:11am

Post #25 of 48 (159 views)
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I will try to accentuate the positive. lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink
To what will be. . . here is to hoping.

The talk of a protective warding spell is the strongest indicator in the things mentioned in the annual. Certainly not a guaruntee, but that type of magic seems inappropriate for use on the orcs. Neither Bolg nor Azog, nor the both of them together, would weigh as much as the collosal Goblin King of An Unexpecte, And if Gandalf were pressed on all sides and needed very much to make a quick escape, with no friends or followers to worry about, then a blast of light and force akin to the one that flung goblins and their behemoth king aside like leaves and tossed aside a torture device the size of a truck, would seem like a much more logical choice for one with the power to deliver such a feat, than would a warding charm.

An enchantment of that nature would seem ideal for use against largely spiritual foes like phantoms and wraiths. And, it is reasonable to assume that such spectres trying to cross the ward might set off a very bright, flaming or flashing reaction. This could be something Radagast would see from afar as "lightning that leaps up from the hilltop."

I'd also note that the Lego sets have often left out key moments and details. Gandalf was not shown in the early depictions of the Goblin Escape Lego set, and certainly there is nothing to show what he did there. Half the dwarves are also absent. Neither Gandalf nor the eagles are present in the Five Fir Trees lego kit (escape from wargs), despite both playing an essential role there. There is, curiously, blue flame, which never appeared in the film, EXCEPT (hah! go figure) in a scene of Gandalf breaking a boulder loose in the goblin caverns which is never mentioned in the book. There was no Radagast Dol Guldur set for An Unexpected, as far as I know. So there is certainly room for figures not shown in the lego sets to show up, and for scenes not depicted to be in.

Yet, while absence of proof is not any proof of absence, in this case it certainly doesn't indicate that such a scene is definitely in. I will have to do what I have been doing with these films, usually with a fair degree of it working well... hope for the best, prepare for the worst. lol

In Reply To
You were perfectly correct to not be sure whether I was being sincere, based on past experience. I'm sure that there will be times in the future when I will gently tweek you again. Smile

They did do a fairly good job of presenting Gandalf's arrival in the Goblin cave. But I still think that a battle between Gandalf and the Nazgul a la Amon Sul is outside the scope of the presentation of Gandalf that these filmmakers are making.

But I will be pleasantly surprised to be wrong. Smile


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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