Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The thing that bothers me most about PJ's approach
First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All

Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 8 2013, 11:01pm

Post #26 of 65 (369 views)
Shortcut
Troll scene [In reply to] Can't Post

It wasn't so much the laying down of arms that I found unbelievable, but the fact that Thorin and Co. allowed themselves to be stuffed into sacks and loaded up onto a giant spit, knowing full-well that they were likely going to be cooked and eaten. I was very much enjoying the changes to Roast Mutton up until that point. I can't buy that grumpy old Thorin would allow the Dwarves to sacrifice themselves and their entire quest just to save Bilbo, who they barely respected at that point (and whom Thorin seemed to lay the blame on for the whole incident). I didn't find myself dwelling on it, but I still found it to be unbelievable.


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Oct 8 2013, 11:24pm

Post #27 of 65 (349 views)
Shortcut
Yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It wasn't so much the laying down of arms that I found unbelievable, but the fact that Thorin and Co. allowed themselves to be stuffed into sacks and loaded up onto a giant spit, knowing full-well that they were likely going to be cooked and eaten. I was very much enjoying the changes to Roast Mutton up until that point. I can't buy that grumpy old Thorin would allow the Dwarves to sacrifice themselves and their entire quest just to save Bilbo, who they barely respected at that point (and whom Thorin seemed to lay the blame on for the whole incident). I didn't find myself dwelling on it, but I still found it to be unbelievable.



^^^Exactly so.

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



Brandybuckled
Lorien


Oct 8 2013, 11:30pm

Post #28 of 65 (365 views)
Shortcut
Can you imagine the dwarves all giving up in the Bo5A 'cause Thorin was about to ... you know [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...you would hardly go on fighting if it meant that one of your friends was going to be torn limb from limb if you did. No matter what the consequence. I find it hard to believe that you've never seen a film before in which the taking and threatening of a captive hasn't forced the captive's friends to surrender. Or that you haven't accepted that situation as perfectly reasonable in another story.


Not where it goes from "Oh no, Bilbo will be eaten" to "I know what will help, let's ALL (including Bilbo) be eaten, instead. And let's all get in sacks and get tied to a rotisserie." Laugh

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



IDLookout
Rivendell


Oct 8 2013, 11:46pm

Post #29 of 65 (342 views)
Shortcut
Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

This is what PJ, Fran and the rest think they get, but IMHO, just don't.

It's like they feel they are obligated to put their stamp on these special moments, which granted is their right when making "their" movie.

They are not, however, making "Tolkien's" movie. Once I got past that part, I could accept the movies for what they are: Pure Adaptations, and nothing more.



Quote
a frustrating lack of understanding of what makes certain moments from the book so special.


Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
He's only three feet tall.
Bilbo, Bilbo! Bilbo Baggins,
The bravest little hobbit of them all.

-Leonard Nimoy


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 9 2013, 12:34am

Post #30 of 65 (373 views)
Shortcut
It really does rankle [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why I'm so concerned about the new characters. I'm emotionally invested in the 'real' ones, and want to know what happens to them. I don't care about Tauriel and her immature, bourgeois love for Legolas, and I don't care about Alfrid and his Igor-esque conniving ways. I care about Bilbo, I care about Thorin, I care about the Dwarves and Thranduil. I want to see Bilbo find his courage and rise up. I want to see Thorin's fall from grace, and then his evetual redemption. I want to see Thranduil's distrust, and then the change that comes over him in the end.


duats
Grey Havens

Oct 9 2013, 1:27am

Post #31 of 65 (328 views)
Shortcut
Especially considering the line in the new DoS trailer [In reply to] Can't Post

"I will not risk this quest for the life of one burglar."

Uh... You kinda already did that, buddy. Pretty readily, I might add.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 3:05am

Post #32 of 65 (328 views)
Shortcut
Possibility vs Necessity [In reply to] Can't Post

As you point out, it is almost always possible to stay near the book by using additions like having Bilbo muttering to himself, or putting cameras inside the barrels. But is this always the best way to do it? There is no written or unwritten rule that says a screenwriter must stay as close to the book as possible. If they believe that a scene as written might be too confusing or boring to the average viewer, then they have the right to change it for the film. Not everyone is going to like it, but that can't be helped; tastes differ. You liked the Rankin-Bass version of "Barrels Out Of Bond", but over on YouTube there is a guy who completely trashes it, pointing out among other things that Rankin-Bass never even show the Dwarves getting into the barrels, leaving much of the audience to wonder what is going on. In "Riddles" the point that Tolkien makes is that Bilbo is too frightened and nervous to speak ("his tongue seemed to stick in his mouth"), so having Bilbo mutter to himself would contradict canon anyway.

The point I wanted to make with this is that the writers didn't make these changes just for the sake of making changes; they thought about it and decided to make them for these and other reasons. In "The Fellowship of the Ring" it would have been perfectly possible and acceptable to have Glorfindel meet Frodo in "Flight to the Ford", but the vast majority of reviewers concurred that substituting Arwen was an inspired change, though of course not everyone will agree.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Owain
Tol Eressea


Oct 9 2013, 4:02am

Post #33 of 65 (298 views)
Shortcut
What films have you worked on?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


Bishop
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 5:17am

Post #34 of 65 (304 views)
Shortcut
I have a problem [In reply to] Can't Post

I watch AUJ too much. It's like I'm addicted to it. I'd love to believe it's because it's a lush, visually dazzling, well acted and fully loaded romp through Middle Earth, and perhaps the film I had been waiting for since I was a kid. But it's not, exactly. I think I watch it because I'm obsessed with what could have been. I'm even considering doing a fan edit, something I've never been inclined to do for any movie, ever. And I'm certainly equipped to do a good one.

The problems for me are fourfold.

1. You nailed it in the OP. The small changes from the book are baffling and aggravating for a million reasons, but mostly because they are completely arbitrary. Your list is solid, and there are so many more things to add.

2. Absurdist physics. I'm perfectly willing to accept that physics in a film can stray from reality, and The Hobbit does this with wreckless abandon. That's fine I guess, though nothing ruins a perfectly excellent Dwarf song than the laws of physics ceasing to exist on glass dinnerware. The real problem is that Jackson already established a structured, physical universe in the LOTR trilogy that was entirely consistent with itself. And he's tried so damned hard to connect the two trilogies in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. So why did he discard physics in AUJ while maintaining everything else on an insanely meticulous level?

3. Constant ham-fisted references to important, seemingly unique moments in the LOTR trilogy. A couple examples include Gandalf bending space at Bilbo's dinner table because he's tired of the Dwarves bickering, the ring always falling on people's fingers by accident (once was more than enough, and actually cool maybe), Gollum singing the same songs, using a moth to summon the Eagles (which makes no sense given the timeframe), and overtly familiar, if not identical, music cues to those companion moments from the previous films. These are pale retreads that add nothing, and actually make the original moment feel far less essential.

4. The gross factor: Sneezing into soup, sneezing on Bilbo, bird sh#$ in hair, Azog's disgusting metal thing that pierces the back of his arm, the Great Goblin's chin, Gandalf sliding a goblin's head off his shoulders with his staff with what appears to be a sort of comically timed giddiness. None of these things make anything charming, funny, or truly fearsome.

I'm holding out judgement on the second and third films, but it fills me with dread to know they were all filmed at the same time. I will try and beat that dread down and remember that Jackson is also the guy who had the vision, creativity and know-how to bring the LOTR films to stunning life. We'll always have those if nothing else.


(This post was edited by Bishop on Oct 9 2013, 5:22am)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 6:07am

Post #35 of 65 (304 views)
Shortcut
A bit of homework is needed here... [In reply to] Can't Post

See the essay on "The Physics of The Hobbit" over in the Reading Room symposium:

Link


In Reply To
2. Absurdist physics. I'm perfectly willing to accept that physics in a film can stray from reality, and The Hobbit does this with wreckless abandon. That's fine I guess, though nothing ruins a perfectly excellent Dwarf song than the laws of physics ceasing to exist on glass dinnerware. The real problem is that Jackson already established a structured, physical universe in the LOTR trilogy that was entirely consistent with itself. And he's tried so damned hard to connect the two trilogies in EVERY POSSIBLE WAY. So why did he discard physics in AUJ while maintaining everything else on an insanely meticulous level?


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 9 2013, 6:40am

Post #36 of 65 (260 views)
Shortcut
The bit inbetween scenes ... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
but the fact that Thorin and Co. allowed themselves to be stuffed into sacks and loaded up onto a giant spit, knowing full-well that they were likely going to be cooked and eaten.


I always like to pretend that the film Hobbits did actually stop off at the house of Tom Bombadil, but it just was never shown in the film. And one can do the same here - pretend that Thorin and Co. laid down their arms, but instead of giving up, they tried to escape. One by one, the trolls pop the Dwarves into sacks. Hey presto, you can then start at the scene where they're on the spit. Wink No? Unsure



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 9 2013, 7:33am

Post #37 of 65 (237 views)
Shortcut
So, what could they do? [In reply to] Can't Post

Having disarmed, what could they do? Remember that in the film we don't see them being trussed up or tied on the spit. We don't know how much resistance they put up, so to say they just 'allowed themselves' is an assumption on your part. And remember that in the book they DO get trussed up in sacks.


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 9 2013, 7:36am

Post #38 of 65 (242 views)
Shortcut
I'm absolutely certain you can see the difference... [In reply to] Can't Post

.. between the Battle of Five Armies and a scene involving three trolls.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2013, 12:32pm

Post #39 of 65 (196 views)
Shortcut
Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

They could have attempted escape, or picked their arms back up once they came to the realization they were going to be roasted to death (which should have been obvious the minute the first Dwarf was tied up). Now sure, it's possible they could have attempted these things in-between, but if that is the case, I think Jackson and Co. should have showed that instead of cutting right from the dwarves laying down their arms to being stuffed in sacks and tied to a giant rotisserie, because leaving it as they did kinda gave the impression that they did just "allow themselves" to become troll-food. Sorry, but I felt, and still feel, that that particular scene could have been done better. We will have to agree to disagree here, because I don't think either of us is going to change the other's mind.

As for the book, yes they were stuffed in sacks, but they were taken at unawares by the trolls. The Dwarves had no idea what was going on, or what they were walking into in the book. In the film, the Dwarves are privy to the danger they are facing before being sacked-up. So I see a difference there.

And as I said, I was enjoying the changes before that "lay down your arms" turn of events, so it isn't like I'm complaining just because it's not like it was in the book. Not that you claimed that or anything, just feel I need to let that be known.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 9 2013, 12:37pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2013, 12:57pm

Post #40 of 65 (197 views)
Shortcut
I myself simply can't think of a scenario where it would make sense the way it happened... [In reply to] Can't Post

Either two trolls continue to threaten to tear Bilbo limb from limb while the other troll stuffs them into sacks one-by-one, or they put Bilbo down and all three trolls start stuffing the Dwarves into sacks, I just cannot see how not a single Dwarf thought to pick his weapon back up, or escape, while his comrades were being tied up. Each Dwarf was tied up separately, so I would think that the time it took for one Dwarf to be tied would have given some of the other Dwarves enough time to escape. Don't want to be the wet blanket here, but I just didn't like the way the scene turned out. If you liked it, that's all that matters Smile


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 9 2013, 1:13pm

Post #41 of 65 (187 views)
Shortcut
You think one troll wouldn't have been capable of killing Bilbo? [In reply to] Can't Post

There's nothing inherently wrong with the scene as it was played. They all put up the fight which only Thorin attempts in the book. And have to stop when any further resistance, even an escape attempt, would result in Bilbo being killed.

The scene in the book, on the other hand, with dwarves turning up one at a time and being bundled up one at a time, and only Bifur and Bombur (I think) putting up a fight which isn't described, and Thorin putting up a fight which is, is great fun in the book, but could become very tedious onscreen.


Noria
Rohan

Oct 9 2013, 1:13pm

Post #42 of 65 (192 views)
Shortcut
Obsession and addiction are never good, especially if you don't enjoy it. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

4. The gross factor: Sneezing into soup, sneezing on Bilbo, bird sh#$ in hair, Azog's disgusting metal thing that pierces the back of his arm, the Great Goblin's chin, Gandalf sliding a goblin's head off his shoulders with his staff with what appears to be a sort of comically timed giddiness. None of these things make anything charming, funny, or truly fearsome.


I don't disagree but once it was announced that Peter Jackson would be directing these movies, I knew that there would be moments of silly juvenile humour and cool looking but nonsensical moments in them along with a lot of great stuff. In LotR there was the earwax Hobbit in Concerning Hobbits, belching Gimli, Pippin and the Lembas, dwarf-tossing, flaming Denethor etc. I didn't particularly enjoy that humour, nor did I enjoy similar stuff in The Hobbit. But that is Peter Jackson, the former director of gore and humour filled horror films. It seemed to me that the kids in the audiences I saw the movie with did find all that stuff funny..

And the essay that Dweller referred you to about the physics in AUJ is truly excellent reading.

Good luck with your fan edit. There are lots of people here who would love to see it, but not me.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2013, 1:26pm

Post #43 of 65 (173 views)
Shortcut
One troll, two trolls... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Doesn't really matter whether it was one troll or two trolls holding Bilbo. The Dwarves in sacks were tied up individually, which should have given some of the other Dwarves time to either escape or pick their weapons back up. Now again, it is possible that did happen off-screen, but if that's the case I think it was wrong to omit it, as it would have explained how things turned out the way they did instead of just making it look like the Dwarves laid down their arms and accepted their fate.


Quote
There's nothing inherently wrong with the scene as it was played.


That is your opinion. It is not my opinion.


Quote
The scene in the book, on the other hand, with dwarves turning up one at a time and being bundled up one at a time, and only Bifur and Bombur (I think) putting up a fight which isn't described, and Thorin putting up a fight which is, is great fun in the book, but could become very tedious onscreen.


Like I said, I enjoyed the changes up until the point of the company laying down their arms. I'm not at all lamenting that it wasn't like it was in the book. The scene simply did not work for me.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 9 2013, 1:26pm)


elostirion74
Rohan

Oct 9 2013, 1:29pm

Post #44 of 65 (185 views)
Shortcut
I have a different interpretation of several of these scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

I can understand the disappointment with changes of particular scenes from the original story, since I've experienced the same with the adaption of LoTR. Most of the scenes you've mentioned don't bother me, though, because to me it seems like the overall themes and tone from the original story have been retained.

I don't see Bilbo as being heroic throughout the troll scene. When the trolls catch him, he's obviously scared and anxious. When the dwarves arrive on the scene, he's mostly trying to avoid getting caught, while the dwarves are doing the fighting.

Much of the grist of the original story (with a few exceptions) is about Bilbo using skills which are not tied to traditional heroism, but to his more peaceful, civilized background. Trying to find compromises, being diplomatic, trust his luck, use stealth and misdirection etc. Bilbo trying to trick the trolls or releasing the ponies when nobody is looking out for him is perfectly in keeping with this general theme in the story IMO. I think the entire scene is a wonderful adaptation of the original story and is a good example of differentiating Bilbo's skills from those of the dwarves.

Bilbo rescuing Thorin is, of course, a scene which has raised a lot of contention. It never bothered me, since I see it as Bilbo acting more on pure instinct (as well as pity) and adrenaline rush. After the adrenaline rush has passed he's really at a loss about what to do. I can see why it bothers others, though, but I think it's wiser to reserve judgement until we've seen DoS. Bilbo's killing of the warg earlier is clearly just about pure luck and coincidence, since the warg impales itself on his sword.

I think Bilbo looks scared or very worried on several occasions. The tone of his voice when the dwarves mentions there are orcs nearby for instance. His fear when the trolls push him while threatening him. The look on his face when he is behind the stone and looks upward to see Gollum looking down at him. His obvious fear when his buttons are stuck between two stones. The tone of his voice when he says his name to Gollum.


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 9 2013, 1:31pm

Post #45 of 65 (177 views)
Shortcut
Jumping ahead of yourself. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Don't want to be the wet blanket here, but I just didn't like the way the scene turned out. If you liked it, that's all that matters Smile


I didn't say anything of the sort. Wink

I think there are many possibilities of how the Trolls got the Dwarves in the sacks in between scenes. One uses ones imagination when reading a book, so the same can be applied for film.

Perhaps, after the Dwarves surrendered, one Troll tied Bilbo up, the other took the weapons, and the other began bagging them up. There probably was a struggle, and some Dwarves probably did *try* to escape. That's probably why dawn wasn't far off, because the Trolls had actually spent most of the time bagging them up. Although the passage of time was seconds, and to us it seemed simple, there may have been an entirely new struggle to get the Dwarves in bags that we actually did get to see.

Just make something up in your imagination to make it make sense. Angelic



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 9 2013, 1:36pm)


frodolives
Lorien

Oct 9 2013, 1:42pm

Post #46 of 65 (177 views)
Shortcut
I respect your opinion... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I just don't agree with it, which makes this type of discussion all the more interesting and fun. But, while I am on your side when you point out that things that work on the page don't necessarily work on film, I think the significance of many scenes is misunderstood or flat-out ignored. When Bilbo delays the trolls by telling them the dwarves have parasites (far too modern a word, BTW), he is being actively heroic. I argue that, at this point in the tale, Bilbo hasn't reached that level. He is also trying to be heroic by rescuing the ponies. In the book, he was trying to impress the dwarves and gets caught. He is betrayed by hubris and inexperience. That is utterly lost in the film scene. He saves the day far too early in the film, meaning that when he does things like kill spiders and stuff dwarves in barrels, his actions won't be as impressive or signify his growth as much. We need to see him fail before he succeeds. So far, Bilbo hasn't failed at anything. And losing Gandalf's ventriloquism is just a shame.

The riddle scene bit rankles me because it is another example of the writers missing the point. On several occasions, Tolkien brings the hand of random chance to bear on significant moments. BIlbo finding the ring is the classic moment. But so is him saving his skin by being pressed for "time". Its a sublime moment in the novel, but is undermined completely in the film. SUddenly, its Gollum who makes the mistake, and Bilbo figures it out. No no no!

I'm fine with changes as long as they make sense, but here I can find no reason for the changes. Do they make the story better? I argue they make it worse.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Oct 9 2013, 1:42pm

Post #47 of 65 (160 views)
Shortcut
I didn't exactly attribute any statement to you, did I? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you took it that way, then apologies for the confusion. I did not say that you called me a wet blanket, just that I didn't want to come off like one. And did I say that you liked the scene? No, just that if you did, that should be all that matters to you, or anyone else, for that matter. I even put a smiley face afterward!!

Anyway, sure I could imagine any number of things to be able to justify it in my own head, but that still doesn't change the fact that I simply didn't like the way it was portrayed.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 9 2013, 1:51pm)


frodolives
Lorien

Oct 9 2013, 1:45pm

Post #48 of 65 (169 views)
Shortcut
Prediction time [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm willing to bet that the Battle of Five Armies isn't primarily caused by greed or pride. It will be caused by the necromancer attacking the mountain with an army of orcs and wargs. The whole point of the battle, that greed and pride are the root of the struggles between dwarves, elves, and men, will be lost or at least glossed over


DanielLB
Immortal


Oct 9 2013, 1:55pm

Post #49 of 65 (146 views)
Shortcut
I wasn't having a pop at you. I was being playful, hence the ;-). Must've fallen flat on the floor. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Oct 9 2013, 1:56pm)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 2:24pm

Post #50 of 65 (166 views)
Shortcut
The Trolls: classic no-win situation [In reply to] Can't Post

I pretty much agree with you and (interestingly enough) everyone else concerning the Trolls, on both sides. I've thought about that scene since the film came out, and while I felt dissatisfied with it for the reasons you and others have pointed out, I still can't figure out a way to make it fit with everything. The writers seem to be in a no-win situation. If they follow the book, these great Dwarf warriors that they've spent the previous 45 minutes building up will look weak and stupid, and Gandalf has to be used yet again as the Deus Ex Machina. If the Dwarves put up a fight as in the film, then they must eventually lose in order to follow canon, and we have to believe that they would allow themselves to be tied up, placed in bags, and be roasted over a fire just because the Trolls threatened to kill Bilbo. So how to do it? I think the writers realized this and thus decided to make a quick, comical ending with the "parasites" joke, so the audience would more or less know that this is supposed to be a "whimsical" scene. Any thoughts?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



First page Previous page 1 2 3 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.