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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Maybe It's Controversial...But I Will Say It Anyway...

Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 8 2013, 1:54pm

Post #1 of 22 (1461 views)
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Maybe It's Controversial...But I Will Say It Anyway... Can't Post

The main characters in this movie are Bilbo and the Dwarves, but they are both short and would not be considered the stereotypical heart throb image. Now this movie is not exactly a comedy either, with the ridiculous Indian Jones type of adventure escapades of the Dwarves but do you think they added Legolas to the film (and Tauriel) just to bring eye candy to the screen - even if they have pointy ears?

I mean look at the movie Avatar: The Last Airbender. It was a terrible movie that could have been an epic. The movie is CLEARLY of Asian descent, but the director is apparently convinced than Asian character (or at least the producers) can save the world (meanwhile a robot like Optimus Prime). My point is do you think that the producers were not convinced the Dwarves could be considered appealing enough to be your typical heroes? I mean LOTS, while there was Frodo, there was Legolas, Arwen and Aragorn--all good lucking people; and the Dwarve--had to be the "funny" one. Tolkien's been accused being a misogynist, and I'm not saying he is or he isn't - but do you think the directors may have a bias ...ehem..against short people?

What do you think? Yes, I know we haven't seen the movie...and we are just speculating here, so don't shoot me, even if I'm the only that seems to be thinking of this....

GOM


(This post was edited by Girdle of Melian on Oct 8 2013, 1:57pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 8 2013, 1:59pm

Post #2 of 22 (779 views)
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Er....no. No way.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The evidence? Richard Armitage!


frodolives
Lorien

Oct 8 2013, 2:05pm

Post #3 of 22 (704 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

There are plenty of good looking dwarves, and a lot of people are attracted to Martin Freeman. Tauriel is there to have a female character, and Legolas is there because it makes sense. I'm sure Tolkien would agree that Legolas would probably have been there.


Shagrat
Gondor

Oct 8 2013, 2:05pm

Post #4 of 22 (733 views)
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Studio bosses [In reply to] Can't Post

I strongly suspect that Warner wanted a female character in the film, probably a romantic element as well, and it wouldn't surprise me as well if they campaigned for larger involvement of Legolas. Certainly, the advertising for DoS suggests they're very happy to push the Elven aspect of this film.


Long Hammer
The Shire

Oct 8 2013, 3:24pm

Post #5 of 22 (627 views)
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the one thing I am sure on [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ does the movies he does so he can do what he wants without a studio telling him what they want in a movie. WB is in charge of marketing and packaging - but when it comes down to the content of the movie, PJ makes the calls.


Kilidoescartwheels
Gondor

Oct 8 2013, 5:17pm

Post #6 of 22 (596 views)
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Yeah, Richard [In reply to] Can't Post

And let's not forget Kili & Fili - I've no doubt THAT was deliberate, to try to have some attractive dwarfs.Heart But even Dwalin has his fans, check out Dwalinroxx.com for some interesting fanart! You could be right with Legolas, but since he's a Murkwood elf and it's only 60 years earlier his inclusion isn't much of a stretch. However, PJ's gone on record saying Tauriel was to involve more women in a male storyline. I don't think there were ANY women characters in The Hobbit.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 9 2013, 12:27am

Post #7 of 22 (425 views)
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Nah [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think so. There are plenty good-looking dwarves, and Martin Freeman is pretty cute himself. If anything, they added Legolas as fanserive (not in a suggestive way) and Tauriel was added because they decided for some strange reason, they had to add a Mary Sue character to the story to steal the limelight.


Thorin's Oakenshield
The Shire

Oct 9 2013, 12:50am

Post #8 of 22 (418 views)
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You keep using that word, but I don't think you know what it means. [In reply to] Can't Post

In most cases a Mary Sue is an idealized character with no real flaws that serves as a proxy for the writer. Please explain how Tauriel fits that bill using examples from a film you haven't seen.

(This is a rhetorical request, I know you can't actually bring up concrete evidence to back up your theory.)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 9 2013, 2:02am

Post #9 of 22 (386 views)
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just to add... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
a great example of a mary sue character is bella swann in twilight (by stephanie meyers).

definition of mary sue, by tvtropes.org


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Kim
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 3:57am

Post #10 of 22 (366 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

If anything, they've gone the opposite direction to make the dwarves attractive and I say they've succeeded. No character in the LOTR movies has grabbed me as much as Thorin, and Richard's portrayal of him makes me care about him more than the book ever did.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 9 2013, 4:24am

Post #11 of 22 (369 views)
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Previous discussion of the "Mary Sue" criticism [In reply to] Can't Post

can be found in this thread:

Link

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 10:35am

Post #12 of 22 (309 views)
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No, I don't think so. [In reply to] Can't Post

For me Thorin is far more attractive than any of the characters in The Hobbit or LOTR. Aragorn was attractive in a different kind of way (very different character), but only as Strider in FOTR, in my view.

For me, neither Legolas nor Tauriel are any kind of 'eye' candy' – rather an irritation.


In Reply To
The main characters in this movie are Bilbo and the Dwarves, but they are both short and would not be considered the stereotypical heart throb image. Now this movie is not exactly a comedy either, with the ridiculous Indian Jones type of adventure escapades of the Dwarves but do you think they added Legolas to the film (and Tauriel) just to bring eye candy to the screen - even if they have pointy ears?



Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 9 2013, 12:36pm

Post #13 of 22 (297 views)
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Perhaps PJ Suffering From Snowhite Complex? [In reply to] Can't Post

I really don't understand why the adventures of the dwarves seemed so "comical"?

Legolas is seen skateboarding on walls and trees, but Dwarves fall into their adventures like Indiana Jones.

Even in LOTR, Gimli was the "comedian."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 12:52pm

Post #14 of 22 (284 views)
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Humour [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, there is a lot of humour attached to Dwarves like Gimli in the books (though certainly not to Thorin, in book or film). Personally, I like this in AUJ and it makes me smile, though I didn't find Gimli particularly funny in LOTR.

Legolas's CGI antics are just ridiculous in my view, not funny.


In Reply To
I really don't understand why the adventures of the dwarves seemed so "comical"?

Legolas is seen skateboarding on walls and trees, but Dwarves fall into their adventures like Indiana Jones.

Even in LOTR, Gimli was the "comedian."



Old Toby
Gondor


Oct 9 2013, 2:57pm

Post #15 of 22 (259 views)
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Ditto what she said!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If anything, they've gone the opposite direction to make the dwarves attractive and I say they've succeeded. No character in the LOTR movies has grabbed me as much as Thorin, and Richard's portrayal of him makes me care about him more than the book ever did.



As handsome and hunky as the men of LOTR were (Aragorn, Boromir, Faramir), in my eyes none of them hold a candle to Thorin Oakenshield (thank you PJ and RA!) He has charisma out the wazoo! And I know they added Fili and Kili as young, good-looking dwarves deliberately, because PJ was calling them "the dream team".

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 9 2013, 5:31pm

Post #16 of 22 (266 views)
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"Oh f***, not another elf!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Lots of people channeling the spirit of Hugo Dyson on the board.

Tolkien himself seems to have faced rather harsh criticism whenever he tried to shoe-horn another elf into the Legendarium, so why shouldn't PJ &Co. as well?

One suspects JRRT's motto was "Everything's better with Elves!" I mean, his Elf obsession got so bad with the Sil that he even forgot all about hobbits!!!

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Arannir
Valinor


Oct 9 2013, 6:36pm

Post #17 of 22 (240 views)
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That, my friend, is brilliant. [In reply to] Can't Post

 



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 10 2013, 1:19am

Post #18 of 22 (200 views)
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I got my defintion of Mary Sue [In reply to] Can't Post

from looking it up on the internet, and also from fanfiction readers who read about characters that, in description, were like Tauriel. Also experianced Mary Sue characters myself when I had read some back in the day. At the time, I didn't know what those characters were called, but I was informed by others. Male characters were called Gary Stus. And just an FYI, other people have been using Mary Sue to describe Tauriel, not just me. Also, Mary Sues aren't likeable most of the time, and there are different types. One example is that wretched Bella Swan from Twilight. Edward, is considered a type of Gary Stu.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 10 2013, 9:39am

Post #19 of 22 (195 views)
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So this begs the question: [In reply to] Can't Post

If you got the definition of "Mary Sue" from the internet, then you must have seen the quote I posted from the web site about how the elves of Tolkien are an exception to the rule, because they are by definition superior beings out of fantasy. And given what we now know about Tauriel's story arc, she doesn't fit with the general definition anyway. She has a small but important role to play, as the catalyst for changing the Mirkwood elves' isolationist policy and getting them involved in the fight against evil. That's all she does- she doesn't kill Smaug, single-handedly defeat the goblin army, save Gandalf, kill Azog, or drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur.

Other people have used the term "Mary Sue" to describe Tauriel, but if you look back at the posts from June 12-14 (just after the first trailer appeared), you'll see that several made it a point to say that she did not appear at all Mary Sue-ish. So why hang on to this idea?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 11 2013, 1:31am

Post #20 of 22 (146 views)
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There are different types of Mary Sue [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't all have to be "all-powerful".
Secondly, the idea of Tauriel is still irksome because, for the umpteenth time, this film is not supposed to be about her. Why should she be the one to change the elves' mind? Thranduil is supposed to come to that conclusion on his own, that's what develops his character more. Also, there's still the possibility that she's going to rescue the dwarves and not Bilbo. That's supposed to be Bilbo's part, it's a pivotal moment. Just because you like Tauriel, doesn't mean other characters have to be undermined by her.
And just an FYI, pairing her with Legolas is part of the whole Mary Sue thing, as he is the obvious choice for pairings, especially in Sue fanfiction, which I once read at the behest of a friend.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Oct 11 2013, 4:48am

Post #21 of 22 (140 views)
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And if none of this is true? [In reply to] Can't Post

What I object to-- and have objected to in the past-- is the criticism of Tauriel based on rumor and jumping to conclusions. She isn't going to let the Dwarves out of their cells; Bilbo is going to do that. I've made it plain since April that the Stefan Servos rumor (Azog dies in DOS + Tauriel has a "crush" on Thranduil and gets rebuffed, pouts, and lets the Dwarves escape) was in all likelihood just an April Fool's joke.

Importantly, the film is not about her in any way. She may have a maximum of 20 minutes of screen time in a 3 hour film. And that's being as optimistic (from my point of view) as possible. Bilbo, the Dwarves, and Gandalf will dominate the story and the film.

Finally, why shouldn't Tauriel's actions help persuade Thranduil to become involved? There is no motivation for him to change his mind on his own. Lee Pace said as much in interviews, basing his character on Oberon and The Fisher King, and speculating on what will "stir him from his (Thranduil's) dragon-like isolation" (Empire). In dramatic writing this is called a "catalytic event", and it's one of the most basic elements of drama.


In Reply To
Secondly, the idea of Tauriel is still irksome because, for the umpteenth time, this film is not supposed to be about her. Why should she be the one to change the elves' mind? Thranduil is supposed to come to that conclusion on his own, that's what develops his character more. Also, there's still the possibility that she's going to rescue the dwarves and not Bilbo. That's supposed to be Bilbo's part, it's a pivotal moment. Just because you like Tauriel, doesn't mean other characters have to be undermined by her.
And just an FYI, pairing her with Legolas is part of the whole Mary Sue thing, as he is the obvious choice for pairings, especially in Sue fanfiction, which I once read at the behest of a friend.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




(This post was edited by DwellerInDale on Oct 11 2013, 4:49am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Oct 14 2013, 12:00am

Post #22 of 22 (121 views)
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Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

came to the conclusion on his own, after having a sort of revelation. Why should he have it brought on him by some made-up character? No one is supposed to change his mind, he comes to it on his own, which to me, is more realistic, because in life, we often come to conclusions on our own. People hardly change their minds based on what others say, as is all too apparent today.

 
 

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