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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Eowyn VS The Witch-King
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Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 5:48pm

Post #26 of 49 (487 views)
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Again, each to its own [In reply to] Can't Post

I would cast someone really pretty and in her early to mid 20s as Eowyn since they cast a very young and very beautiful Arwen. I never thought that difference between Arwen and Eowyn was this huge. Sure, Arwen was the most beautiful woman of her time, but they could've cast a more alluring and age-compatible Eowyn. She striked me as a really desperate spinster/old maid to be honest.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Oct 3 2013, 5:52pm)


Starling
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 6:53pm

Post #27 of 49 (479 views)
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Wow [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I know it's your opinion, but I do think you are being very harsh in your judgements.
'Desperate spinster / old maid'?
I have stayed out of this thread until now, because I know I am not going to convince you that
a) What you describe as a cheesy power line is, in my opinion, a great line, very well delivered
b) Miranda Otto was well cast, and brought subtlety and heart to a role that was potentially very difficult

I am not sure why you need to describe her as 'obviously in her 30's'. Is this meant to be insulting? And why all the repeated references to Twilight? And why describe her as 'plain'?
How exactly do you want your female characters to be?

It makes me wonder whether there is a generational thing going on here. You reference a lot of films and language / terminology and internet lists that I have not idea about. I'm not meaning to be insulting - I'm just trying to understand, because there is a huge divide here. I feel like we aren't even watching the same movie.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 7:23pm

Post #28 of 49 (460 views)
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eowyn and eomer are about the same age [In reply to] Can't Post

 
eowyn and eomer are about the same age (only four years apart). karl urban and miranda otto look about the same age (though he was born in 1972 and she in 1967, making them 28 and 33 about the time of filming).

did you have the same problem with karl urban as eomer?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 7:28pm

Post #29 of 49 (478 views)
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I say she's obviously in her 30s [In reply to] Can't Post

because the character is supposed to be 24 in canon and the actress was obivously at least 10 years older. So she was miscast, IMO. I also found her acting style - bug eye surprise, puppy eye adoration, mouth breathing, gasping for breath, prancing around when she tried to look defiant- to be very teen soap opera because actors on those shows are usually much older than characters they play (20somethings posing as 15-16 years olds) and apply the same acting style thinking that makes them look younger. I'm simply not fond of that because it takes me out of the movie/show.

Moreover, casting such a young Arwen only emphasized how much older Eowyn was which is why the character in the movie didn't strike me as someone who was trapped in an unfavorable lifestyle, but as someone past marriageable age eager to get married at all cost. It didn't help that she was made to acknowledge Arwen's existance in the movies (whereas book Eowyn was clueless) and still proceeded to throw herself at Aragorn in very unsubtle ways (worst ofender being when she was lying on a couch and was basically pulling his sleeve...just ugh). While acting like on a teen soap or Twilight all the while.

IMO, she wasn't a disaster but she wasn't impressive either and she certainly didn't own the character so that she couldn't have been replaced. They could have cast much better. I'd say she was mostly unmemorable and plain. Unlike Faramir actor who I thought was sticking like a sour thumb. It helped that her role was so small otherwise her teen antics would have become insufferable.

Again, it's just my opinion and I don't sugar-coat stuff I have problem with. But considering that she didn't go onto bigger things after LOTR it seems that the industry wasn't impressed either.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 7:29pm

Post #30 of 49 (465 views)
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Urban looked younger [In reply to] Can't Post

than she although he was supposed to be an older brother. And his role was blink or you'll miss him so I can't say if his acting was any good. he was barely there.

besides, this isa thread about Witch King Slaying so I had no reason to discuss Eomer's age since he isn't in it.

A lot was said about Frodo being much younger in the movies than in the book so I don't see why such outrage over pointing out movie Eowyn was much older than book one.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Oct 3 2013, 7:30pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Oct 3 2013, 7:49pm

Post #31 of 49 (436 views)
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I agree to each their own. [In reply to] Can't Post

I totally disagree with ya.



Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 8:06pm

Post #32 of 49 (456 views)
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echoing starling's "wow" [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it does astonish me that someone could have such a pronounced, negative reaction to otto's performance. for myself, there were some slivers of moments i did not care for as much, but on the whole, throughout the two films, she did well.

i'm happy about the casting choice. they went for someone who could carry the role and had some acting heft, rather than only a pretty face ('tho otto certainly has that; she's lovely).

the way you equate otto's performance with that of a teenager makes me wonder quite wonderingly at what teenagers you've encountered.

another area in which our assessments differ is the interaction between aragorn and eowyn when she woke from her (horrifying) nightmare. there was nothing guileful in her grasping for him -- she was quite overwhelmed by her dream, which also seemed to be a prophecy. she was terrified. aragorn saw that, and responded with compassion. i've had horrible dreams like that. they are quite terrifying.

and, even though she knows that an elven-lady gave aragorn "that jewel," why would she suppose that there was something going on? a coupling between a human and an elf? that had happened only twice before (or three times, if you count the ancestors of prince imrahil), all of it in eons so dusty that there is a great chance that she knew nothing of them. so why would she think that there was any sort of romantic relationship? especially since aragorn himself told her that she {arwen) was sailing west with her kin?

eowyn's feelings for aragorn were quite real. she was someone who had walled herself off from emotions all her life, having known much loss. when aragorn appeared, he was the epitome of all that she admired, plus he had a healing presence. it was through his companion (gandalf) that one who was so dear to eowyn was healed (theoden). so it is easy to understand (at least for me), why she was overcome with grief when gimli brought her the news that aragorn had died. no, she had not known him long, but she was struck by him, he awoke her as gandalf awoke theoden. she was able to have hope where she was dead before.

it astonishes me that someone could have such relentlessly negative takes on otto's performance, but it's okay. it's a film, it's a performance, and people see it through the lenses of their experiences and faculties. i'm glad i i had a different experience, as otto definitely added to my thorough enjoyment of the trilogy (and i thought she was great in her battle with the witch-king).

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 8:20pm

Post #33 of 49 (446 views)
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Plain?! [In reply to] Can't Post

ShockedSemper Fi, I think I've disagreed with just about everything you've written in this thread, but that's OK, because we're all entitled to our own opinions (no matter how wrong they are). But to describe Miranda Otto as "plain," well, at that, I must make myself heard! Speaking as the Alpha of the healthy red-blooded male of our species, I categorically state that Miranda Otto is not in the least "plain!" More fitting words would include beautiful, lovely, charming, pretty, fair, graceful, and (God forgive me) hot.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 8:26pm

Post #34 of 49 (430 views)
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I didn't say teen behavior but teen soap opera behavior [In reply to] Can't Post

ten soap opera is exaggerated acting that older actors think is youthful.

I wouldn't say that my reaction is too negative. You haven't heard my opinion on Faramir. Now that's a negative one to end all negative ones.Laugh

I just think she was unimpressive, definitely replaceable and pretty much miscast. I'm sorry that it came off like I was faulting her too much but many problems with her performance that I have really stem from her being wrong for the role IMO (too old for the character AND compared to Arwen) and being saddled with the script that made the character look like a homewrecker (she knows Aragorn is taken but aggressively pursues him regardless). It simply wasn't a good match between an actor and a role, IMO.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Magpie
Immortal


Oct 4 2013, 12:20am

Post #35 of 49 (450 views)
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"it does astonish me that someone could have such a pronounced, negative reaction to otto's performance." [In reply to] Can't Post

I will say, we've had at least one member in the past that had quite similar views and was very persistent in sharing them with similar passion. Some of these conversations really remind me of those days.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 4 2013, 1:28am

Post #36 of 49 (427 views)
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people think alike [In reply to] Can't Post

but when someone simply isn't impressed and won't get swayed, that person or persons get singled out. I'll remove myself from the subject since it looks like fans of the performance take it too personally. But before I leave the thread, lets at least be honest here - the scene did not have a big impact, was flawed in many ways and totally upstaged by Legolas vs Mumakil partly because Legolas one was much more exciting, partly because Legolas was so popular due to a perfect match between an actor and a role (and I think Bloom is generally a terrible actor but Legolas played to his strengths) and partly because the success of Witch King scene depended on the delivery of a single line and that didn't go well. They simply didn't have a star material here, someone who would elevate the scene and turn cheese into classic. Otto was serviceable, not bad, not very good, but to pull off that scene, especially with such flawed writing and editing, they needed an actress with strong presence who got the kind of scene she was in and ran away with it. It didn't happen here. Star was not born and the scene didn't become one of LOTR's highly regarded or essential ones. I see nothing offensive in pointing that out, or discussing how I see someone's acting style and what I think is wrong/right with it.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Oct 4 2013, 1:30am)


flameofudun
Lorien

Oct 4 2013, 1:43am

Post #37 of 49 (418 views)
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i loved the witch king [In reply to] Can't Post

a little off topic, but hey, this confrontation did stick in my mind for sure. also, the following legolas oliphaunt scene stuck in my mind too haha.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Faleel
Rohan

Oct 4 2013, 2:21am

Post #38 of 49 (428 views)
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The [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I hate about the whole last scenes of the Pelennor battle is how short it feels, we cut from the Mumakil scene, to the wrapup, it seems a bit "anticlimactic" in a way..


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 4 2013, 3:59am

Post #39 of 49 (402 views)
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just to say.... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm certainly sorry that you feel uncomfortable or discouraged enough that you're withdrawing from the conversation. i don't think anyone here is taking anything personally, but (it happens that) your opinion on this particular thing is widely divergent from the opinion of those who have expressed themselves on this thread at this time. because you've got a lot of differing opinions in response to the posts you've made, it may seem like people here are taking it personally (the volume and the 180-degree difference in opinion might make it feel so to you), but, truly, i don't see anyone on this thread taking it personally. just expressing strong surprise at the (strongly) divergent opinion. also, i don't think that anyone is particularly bothered that you have a divergent opinion -- i think it comes down to surprise, because that's not the assessment of most who've expressed opinions on this thread.

i think part of the issue in the discussion is the use of "absolute statements" --- like, "let's at least be honest here," and similar. when something is cast in phrasing like that, it implies that the people who disagree with you are not being honest. and i don't think that's the case at all. people just saw the scene a different way than you did, and received the actor's performance a different way than you did.

i think it's great that you have an opinion, and you are sharing it and we're exploring our differences. we've been very successful so far in doing all of this politely, despite the fact that the opinions are very different, and that's a credit to everyone here (which absolutely includes you).

i think it's natural that you're getting the lion's share of feedback / responses to posts on this thread, just due to the fact that you've expressed a widely divergent opinion, and have pretty strong feelings about it. if it's come across that folks are singling you out, that's unfortunate, but i can understand how it might seem. i think that's just what happens in a situation like this.

again, everyone here has been polite and engaging, and that's been great. i personally thank you for sticking with it and elaborating, especially if you did so past the point at which you might have been comfortable.

ok. now i think i'm going to start a thread on faramir. (that's a little joke with a nod to you, btw, as upthread you expressed not liking the character / performance at all. : ) )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Starling
Half-elven


Oct 4 2013, 4:10am

Post #40 of 49 (400 views)
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Let's be honest? [In reply to] Can't Post

I can do that.
I honestly think Miranda Otto is a good actress. I thought she was effective in her role as Eowyn, and brought layers to the character that I appreciated. Some of her other work is very good indeed, for example in 'In my Father's Den'. My definition of good acting clearly differs from yours.

I honestly think the scene was good, and that it had impact. It certainly had a big impact on the audiences I saw it with in the theatres. I did not find that it was upstaged by what came after it. I loved the way Miranda delivered that line. It worked for me. I am not saying this because I am a 'fan', or 'taking it too personally' (whatever that means). I am saying it because I think it was a good scene, and well done. I don't think the writing was flawed, nor the editing.

I know we have had a similar conversation before, but I will repeat that there are many ways to define success. Being on internet lists of 'kick-ass' characters, or being a 'star' in 'the industry', are not things I tend to use as a yardstick to measure success.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 4 2013, 10:25am

Post #41 of 49 (391 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really appreciate it.SmileHeart



Mmmmm, Faramir thread...LaughLaughLaugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 4 2013, 5:52pm

Post #42 of 49 (416 views)
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Oddly enough [In reply to] Can't Post

That's one of the things I find most realistic.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Oct 7 2013, 7:29pm

Post #43 of 49 (352 views)
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Speaking of Star Wars characters... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Witch King reminded me very much of Darth Vader in this scene. Especially when he graps Eowyns neck and you hear his breathing... very much like Lord Vader ;-)

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Oct 8 2013, 6:07pm

Post #44 of 49 (282 views)
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I would definitely say it does the same for me... [In reply to] Can't Post

I will always remember the WK and Eowyn Scene, but it will not be sitting near the top of my list of memorable scenes. It's there in my mind, but nothing more than a simple scene. Things like Legolas, Beacons, etc definitely sit at the top.

"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Oct 9 2013, 8:03am

Post #45 of 49 (292 views)
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Definitely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I really liked her and she was much better to me than Arwen. I never had a feeling that she is playing a younger woman and in that role she is still one of the most beautiful actress I have ever seen - I really liked her innocense and purity, something that you rarely see nowadays. I am sure that she could also play a perfect elf at the time of the Lord of the Rings.


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 22 2013, 12:14am

Post #46 of 49 (223 views)
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From a book-firster perspective [In reply to] Can't Post

One of the most powerful scenes in the book trilogy for me is Eowyn and Merry vs the Witch-King. I was happy to have it in the movie, but disappointed that it left me feeling flat. Even rewatching the movies, I come to that scene and wish they would reshoot it. I always cringe at Eowyn's line.

Being so heavily prejudiced by the books, I can only think of Eowyn as an Amazon type. She's described as such, and has no problem cutting off the beast's head with one skilled blow. She may be full of despair but retains her combat skill and confidence. But I didn't see any of that in Miranda Otto. She's pretty, looks like a princess, and carried her other scenes well, but she's no Amazon, and in some commentary (forget where) a director admitted she was uncomfortable doing the battle scene, and she certainly looked out of place.

I contrast that disappointing scene with the *fantastic* one of Arwen taking Frodo to the Ford. When you can deviate from the book and deliver such a powerful, gripping scene, then please do, Peter, please do! I still get shivers when I watch that flight to the ford (duh! I know how it ends). And it wasn't that Arwen was a Xena Warrior Princess as she joked in an interview, it seemed more founded on her sense of the rightness of her cause and personal courage. She didn't need combat skill as much as iron will, and given that she was a rough reincarnation of doughty, defiant Luthien, I found her performance convincing.

That's what set me up for disappointment, I think. Arwen was so awesome that I expected the iconic Eowyn/WKing scene to be equally powerful. Oh well. At least they included it. If they'd left it out, I would have been even more disappointed.


Elciryamo
Rivendell

Oct 22 2013, 6:32am

Post #47 of 49 (220 views)
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Maybe the difference is in Eowyn's presentation [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book, Eowyn is not known as Eowyn, and we don't get the "princess" vibe you mentioned. Instead, it is just one of the Rohirrim, weeping over Theoden and then fighting to defend their king. Only, in the reveal, do we get the incredible sense of power that she wields.

That might be what is lacking in the film, is the fact that we know it is Eowyn and we know her relationship with Theoden, and the feelings she must be feeling as the Nazgul attacks him.

I doubt that it would be possible to be convincing in a film medium, but the power conveyed is both in the concealing and the revealing of her identity.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Nov 7 2013, 3:10am

Post #48 of 49 (199 views)
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I thought the scene worked brilliantly in the film, [In reply to] Can't Post

and thought Miranda Otto acted it beautifully-- i give Eowyn a little internal cheer everytime i watch it. And i found Eowyn and Merry's scenes together well acted and rather touching-- one of the more unsung aspects of the final film.


simplyaven
Grey Havens


Dec 28 2013, 1:20am

Post #49 of 49 (148 views)
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Another one [In reply to] Can't Post

Ha! My sentiments towards both the book and movie Eowyn are well known, not sure if Magpie was referring to me, it doesn't matter, because I haven't changed ,my opinion over the past more than 25 years. The only character with whom Tolkien fell short on me was Eowyn. I could hardly read the passages about her and I still have major difficulties believing her in the books. She simply doesn't work for me and it doesn't matter, of course, what the other readers think because reading, as well as watching, is a personal experience.

Things got much worse with Miranda Otto and to me it has little to do with the particular scene because long before that I couldn't watch her. She will forever remain to me the "Spaniel Eyes" lady. This basically ruined all her following fighting for me as I could only see her as staring at Aragorn with these puppy eyes and always over dramatic over someone who... she basically didn't know. Now, here comes the writing too because they gave her very strong lines which, to me, she completely failed to deliver but then the lines themselves were a bit over the top, to put it mildly. Adding to this the spaniel eyes and the whole Miranda/Eowyn was a tragedy to me. And still is. Now I just skip all scenes with her.

I'd rather see Merry alone defeating the Witch King and wouldn't miss the spaniel eyes at all. Regardless my book-firster past. I'd gladly sacrifice it for avoiding her drama queen performance.

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