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speaking of aredhel...
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 12:55am

Post #1 of 26 (421 views)
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speaking of aredhel... Can't Post

 
.... well, no one was speaking of her, per se. but i was thinking of her, since she came up on the "which character in the silmarillion are you?" quiz thread on the offtopic board....

earlier, when we were discussing her and her choices in our chapter discussions, i think the consensus was that she didn't translate as much of a sympathetic character, due to a lot of her choices, one of the most significant of which was her choice to marry eol.

a lot of folks have some trouble with that particular choice, taking the position that she should have known better.

for one moment, in the role of eol, let's cast richard armitage (who would actually be a great choice, btw -- you can also insert your favorite, talented actor who is good at playing complex-but-compelling characters) .... i think this would quite illustrate that sometimes assessing romantic choices isn't so clear-cut. if eol (especially with someone like armitage/insert-your-favorite-leading-man-who-plays-complex-well) playing him -- ), do we wind up having a little more sympathy for aredhel?

perhaps think on some romantic partners of the past (or present), who started off well enough, or had a lot of good things to offer a relationship, and the negative things just weren't as much in evidence at first.

also, people (and elves) do change, partly out of choices they make. was the elf-sight working, but did either make subsequent choices that undermined the possibility of partnership? (i think that's a big "yes" for eol, but i do feel compelled to ask anyway.)

tolkien wrote that elves naturally have the ability to see into another and know whether he / she would be a good partner for themselves. was aredhel's elf-sight working? was eol's?

eol played rather underhandedly to actually meet her, but those were his methods, not his elf-sight. aredhel may not have liked what he did, she may have been initially coerced (that not wholly unwilling part), but was her elf-sight working when she agreed to marry eol?

also... that "not wholly unwilling" part. was eol refusing to let her go, and just wore her down? did he attempt to rape her?


just some aredhel thoughts this evening.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Oct 3 2013, 12:58am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 1:53am

Post #2 of 26 (336 views)
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Interesting continuation Telpemairo [In reply to] Can't Post

Especially with your extended clarifications.

I must admit, for my part I don't really blame Aredhel for marrying Eol - and I don't think it was a rape type of scenario either (so that also acquits Eol in my mind.) Was he a bit devious, and possibly controlling? Yes. Was she perhaps not entirely forthright in her acceptance of him? Yes I think so. Despite the way in which they may have met, I think the greater affection - while she was his wife, and at his terms - was on Eol's side for Aredhel. So no matter how I look at the pairing, its a 50/50 split of cause to me.

The point about her forthrightness may relate to how she is rather using Eol to escape a life which she finds unsatisfying, versus for any qualities of his...though I do believe, as Firstborn, he may certainly have been fair (a complex role our RA could handle quite well) and had genuinely attractive points.

If any choice of Aredhel's bug me, its not the marriage (but it is also not the leaving: under the circumstances, with Maeglin in mind, it may have been a sound choice.) It is the choice to risk Gondolin on what appears to be a bit of a whim. One can say it was her free seeking spirit to ride out, and I can empathize: but that decision to risk so many is the one that may not sit quite so well with me.

So I would say that I do not hold either one of them entirely to blame here in terms of the romantic portion of the tale: I do not blame her for being intrigued and attracted by this very (likely) appealing and very novel sort of Elf; I do not exactly like his methods, but he seems to have genuinely cared for Aredhel as a female and wife, and certainly he could have done much worse with no witnesses.

The souring too...I see that as equal share. He does not seem to have changed much: so she did know what she was getting. Yet she had her son to consider as well...and there is the implication that she was a bit 'under a spell' but I have never read that as necessarily originating with Eol: I think it is her nature to be restless and desire change (which he was quite violently reactive too - so his bad there.)

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















(This post was edited by Brethil on Oct 3 2013, 1:54am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 4:27pm

Post #3 of 26 (267 views)
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Further consideration [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not address one of your primary points, the function of the Elf-sight in choosing partners.

I would tend to feel like Aredhel might not have been fully in tune with her sight when she met Eol. The very nature of wandering - a bit rebellious? - perhaps threw off her sense of Eol as an Elf versus merely what was in front of her at an opportune time. There is also the suggestion that some glamour of Eol himself may have thrown off her insights. So I would say no, her sight was not fully in tune like it would have been under relaxed, normal circumstances.

Eol...that's a question. He does seem to be attracted to her instantly. They seem to have things in common in the beginning, and affection. So perhaps in the state where she arrived at his door - a bit vulnerable, not quite 'settled' in herself ie: the reason for her feeling restless and leaving Gondolin - she WAS the 'right' partner for him. But once things changed, she became more of her native self with time, she was actually not the right pick for him. So his perhaps was functioning - but under less than sincere conditions.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 4:47pm

Post #4 of 26 (269 views)
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elf-sight [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i think that both had a bit of the elf-sight going on, but both were also seduced a bit by elf-lust. tolkien does say that while elves have a certain nature and pattern, there can be aberrations. like in the case of elf-rape or elf-infidelity (or elf-killing). his writings indicate these are unthinkable for elves, yet we have some historical instances in which elves murdered elves (some times the same murderers doing it again), incestuous elf thoughts (maeglin towards idril), and (suggested) notions of elf rape (some, including me, get the feeling that a couple of the sons of feanor were thinking about forcibly accosting luthien).

so, eol may be a mixed bag. i think he's definitely struck by aredhel (a bit of elf-sight), but i also think he's moved quite a bit from sheer desire. and the enchantments he works on her.... they certainly caused her to lose her way, but were they enchantments that beguiled aredhel's perceptions? i think this would be difficult to do to an elf, especially one who was born in valinor.

for her, my thoughts align with the idea that her elf-sight was working as well, in part. both of them are very independent, love living free, on their own terms. their early years were probably wildly happy and intense and passionate. i imagine aredhel in incredible bliss, partnered with someone who was equally passionate, intense, and an independent thinker.

i suspect there might have also been a bit of elf lust on her side as well. eol must have seemed extremely compelling, someone who lived free for years, pretty much alone, on his own terms. no kings or princes around him. she's also a noldo, so eol's talents with smithcraft might have also intrigued her. he probably was an incredibly dashing figure, and must have been very compelling, because she was an elf who had been born in and lived in the light of valinor, which he had never seen. the gulf between the caliquendi and the moriquendi was great. eol's gifts and his presence must have been very impressive, to bridge this gulf.

so, i'm leaning on a mix between elf-sight and a dash of elf-lust. they probably were well-matched in many ways, but just because the match is promising doesn't mean that love flowers endlessly. love is affected by the choices one makes, and each (especially eol) made some not so good ones.

their relationship strikes me as one of the most complex in the sil among elves.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 5:31pm

Post #5 of 26 (246 views)
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Love and lust [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i think that both had a bit of the elf-sight going on, but both were also seduced a bit by elf-lust. tolkien does say that while elves have a certain nature and pattern, there can be aberrations. like in the case of elf-rape or elf-infidelity (or elf-killing). his writings indicate these are unthinkable for elves, yet we have some historical instances in which elves murdered elves (some times the same murderers doing it again), incestuous elf thoughts (maeglin towards idril), and (suggested) notions of elf rape (some, including me, get the feeling that a couple of the sons of feanor were thinking about forcibly accosting luthien). I agree - we have the hints of those darker possibilities among Elves. (As for Orcs, we get a slightly bigger hint with Celebrian...just enough to be sadly disturbing. Trace Firstborn traits magnified exponentially.) Interesting that lust may be part of the equation...he was seeming to craft characters that were a bit complex here, and come off the page a bit more. I think you might be correct here, and that sheer attraction and physicality may have been part of the attraction. I tend to think, given JJRT's own thoughts, that if 'lust' were operative, it might throw off or eclipse the sense of 'purer' love which I think was more of what he felt was being perceived with Elven-sight in this application - rather like what you say below.

so, eol may be a mixed bag. i think he's definitely struck by aredhel (a bit of elf-sight), but i also think he's moved quite a bit from sheer desire. and the enchantments he works on her.... they certainly caused her to lose her way, but were they enchantments that beguiled aredhel's perceptions? i think this would be difficult to do to an elf, especially one who was born in valinor.

for her, my thoughts align with the idea that her elf-sight was working as well, in part. both of them are very independent, love living free, on their own terms. their early years were probably wildly happy and intense and passionate. i imagine aredhel in incredible bliss, partnered with someone who was equally passionate, intense, and an independent thinker.
i suspect there might have also been a bit of elf lust on her side as well. eol must have seemed extremely compelling, someone who lived free for years, pretty much alone, on his own terms. no kings or princes around him. she's also a noldo, so eol's talents with smithcraft might have also intrigued her. he probably was an incredibly dashing figure, and must have been very compelling, because she was an elf who had been born in and lived in the light of valinor, which he had never seen. the gulf between the caliquendi and the moriquendi was great. eol's gifts and his presence must have been very impressive, to bridge this gulf. All true on Eol...I do see him as a mixed bag. I would go with the 'captor' or glamour sort of argument had he somehow concealed who he was early on - but he did not. He seems to have presented himself exactly as he was, including that prohibition on daylight walking, from the start. And you have touched I think on a crucial point of commonality - as a Noldo I think her fascination with a Creator and a Smith was true and sincere. And from what we read, he was a talented craftsman. That sense of curiosity and artistic skill would have been very alluring in its own right.

so, i'm leaning on a mix between elf-sight and a dash of elf-lust. they probably were well-matched in many ways, but just because the match is promising doesn't mean that love flowers endlessly. love is affected by the choices one makes, and each (especially eol) made some not so good ones.

their relationship strikes me as one of the most complex in the sil among elves.


I like your analysis here and I do agree - and with the added component of a more physical start to the relationship than I had read previously. I think it explains Aredhel's choices and actions in the early stages, as well as explains the 'wearing off' of the feeling - which I do not believe true Elven love does. So if that bit of lust in the start was an impteus that could change with time, as we see that it did.
Similar here to the Mariner's Wife tales...how Erendis and Aldarion have that fiery start but drift so far apart. (Maybe a similar mechanism between two strong willed people? Will be interesting to discuss in that chapter.)



.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















(This post was edited by Brethil on Oct 3 2013, 5:36pm)


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 3 2013, 5:36pm

Post #6 of 26 (256 views)
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Eowyn Without a Cause? [In reply to] Can't Post

One can easily picture Eowyn telling Eomer 'I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you grudge me an escort I will go alone." - The Sil

She also had, at least according to Tolkien, Aredhel's poor choice in making matches:

"Cut out the love-story of Aragorn and Eowyn. Aragorn is too old and lordly and grim." -HoME VII

So would a dissatisfied and restless Queen Eowyn eventually have brought down Gondor?


(Then again, why is it okay for Aragorn, Elladan, Elrohir, Glorfindel, and who knows how many other guys to willy-nilly run in and out of the secret entrances to a hidden Elven place at all hours whenever they want just because whatever, but when one single little female does the same blamed thing because she's been stuck in the same unchanging place for two hundred long boring years it's suddenly a big disaster and it's all her fault?)

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 3 2013, 5:41pm

Post #7 of 26 (254 views)
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"It is not said that Aredhel was wholly unwilling, nor that her life in Nan Elmoth was hateful to her for many years." [In reply to] Can't Post

-The Sil

It may be that she finally realized her project of reforming a "bad boy" wasn't working.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 5:52pm

Post #8 of 26 (246 views)
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intersting thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

 
interesting thoughts, darkstone.

there were not many, but there were some trusted few. turgon certainly trusted aredhel.

i suppose the difference is that the others were sent on missions, where aredhel wanted to go out to do her own bidding. honestly, i think disaster could have just as easily befallen any of these excursions, whether they were under turgon's orders or under turgon's misgivings.

the downfall of gondolin did arise through aredhel's excursion, but it wasn't her doing, and it wasn't directly foreseeable. it's not like she was captured by morgoth or sauron and gave up the city.

it circles back to the idea of fate.... gondolin seemed fated to fall... does that mean it was fated to fall the way it did? if it wasn't through maeglin, would it have been through someone else?

honestly, the more direct line of succession to gondolin's fall is not through aredhel, but through maeglin. he was the one who was captured, and who gave up the city.

and i agree... aredhel and eowyn have many similarities. to continue with the pattern you set.... imagine aredhel against the witch-king.... fighting to save her brother, turgon, or brother, fingon. uttering, "no man am i!" i can easily see it.

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 5:54pm

Post #9 of 26 (259 views)
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The perpetual Bad Boy as a lure. When it fails [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
-The Sil

It may be that she finally realized her project of reforming a "bad boy" wasn't working.




and that whatever she was escaping from in her previous life in Gondolin was just changed to a new dissatisfaction? Certainly life with Eol allowed her more freedom in a small sense - of walking freely abroad - but like Gondolin had rules too, and may have been enough to make her feel hemmed in yet again once the novelty wore off. And the lure of that bad boy (and the desire to mend them) is truly quite timeless. Something in the human metaphor to be easily understood.

On the point of Eowyn - interesting comparison here. I too can her saying *exactly* that to Eomer. Uncanny.

I wonder if the real downfall of Gondolin is in its making...the secrecy that is its strength is its greatest weakness too. Eowyn as a dissatisfied princess could not have given away Rohan quite as much as a dissatisfied Aredhel (or as you correctly point out, anyone in and out willy-nilly and careless, perhaps eating a crumbly piece of toast) could give away Gondolin. Even Ulmo knew its fall was inevitable, and one wouldn't even need divine vision to guess that Morgoth would turn himself inside-out to fine something hidden...more like intelligent anticipation.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 3 2013, 7:34pm

Post #10 of 26 (253 views)
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The Little Princess and The Rose That Blooms on the Plain [In reply to] Can't Post

’Tis said and ’tis sung: Gondobar am I called and Gondothlimbar, City of Stone and City of the Dwellers in Stone; Gondolin the Stone of Song and Gwarestrin am I named, the Tower of the Guard, Gar Thurion or the Secret Place, for I am hidden from the eyes of Melko; but they who love me most greatly call me Loth, for like a flower am I, even Lothengriol the flower that blooms on the plain."
-The Book of Lost Tales


And now six years have already gone by. . .

I have never yet told this story. The companions who met me on my return were well content to see me alive. I was sad, but I told them: “I am tired.”

Now my sorrow is comforted a little. That is to say– not entirely. But I know that he did go back to his planet, because I did not find his body at daybreak.

It was not such a heavy body. . . and at night I love to listen to the stars. It is like five hundred million little bells. . .

But there is one extraordinary thing. . . when I drew the muzzle for the little prince, I forgot to add the leather strap to it. He will never have been able to fasten it on his sheep. So now I keep wondering: what is happening on his planet? Perhaps the sheep has eaten the flower. . .

At one time I say to myself: “Surely not! The little prince shuts his flower under her glass globe every night, and he watches over his sheep very carefully. . . ” Then I am happy. And there is sweetness in the laughter of all the stars.

But at another time I say to myself: “At some moment or other one is absent-minded, and that is enough! On some one evening he forgot the glass globe, or the sheep got out, without making any noise, in the night...” And then the little bells are changed to tears...

Here, then, is a great mystery. For you who also love the little prince, and for me, nothing in the universe can be the same if somewhere, we do not know where, a sheep that we never saw has– yes or no?– eaten a rose. . .

Look up at the sky. Ask yourselves: is it yes or no? Has the sheep eaten the flower? And you will see how everything changes. . .

And no grown-up will ever understand that this is a matter of so much importance!

- The Little Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


The anguish of the Elves is not only watching hundreds and hundreds of pet puppies die over thousands and thousands of years of existence, but also the realization that things that Men would take as eternal such as the Pyramids, Mount Everest, seas, continents, the very constellations themselves, are merely passing things in their immortal lives.

The Fall of Gondolin was inevitable because that is the nature of the world.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 10:16pm

Post #11 of 26 (230 views)
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Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

Well Aragorn, being used to rubbing along with all sorts in the course of his wanderings, might have had the wisdom and good sense to realise the way things were going and manage to deal with the situation.

What would pretty surely have been a disaster (and might well have happened if it hadn't been for Mordor, Saruman and the declines of Théoden and Denethor) is Eowyn and Boromir. You can just see it, can't you? Diplomatic alliance, Boromir accepting that he needs to marry strategically, Eowyn initially thrilled by the brave warrior from Gondor... Then - Boromir insists on not only wearing the trousers but being seen to wear the trousers, Eowyn isn't having any, Faramir tries to be a go-between and smooth things over and ends up smitten himself... Cue classic "betrayed-by-my-wife-and-best-mate" tragedy a la Lancelot and Guinevere. So I guess the Ring did some good after allWink.


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 10:44pm

Post #12 of 26 (231 views)
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Wonderfully poignant references Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post

And conclusion as well.

AngelicCool

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 10:58pm

Post #13 of 26 (224 views)
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interesing... proposal [In reply to] Can't Post

 
if it weren't for the war, an eowyn / boromir pairing certainly might have been on some diplomat's mind. however, even though theoden's mother was gondorian, eowyn had no gondorian blood in her. i wonder if denethor would have thought her fit to be the bride of a future steward of gondor. denethor might have favored the princess lothloriel, of dol amroth (whom eomer eventually married).

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 11:22pm

Post #14 of 26 (223 views)
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tengwadil, you echo my thought re gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i just posted the same thought re gondolin. that it was fated to fall. also, that it's fall was more directly traceable to maeglin than aredhel. (your reference to toast crumbs invoked a mental chuckle.)

aredhel has all the qualities we usually like in our shieldmaidens: fearless, strong, physically adept, independent, wiling to buck the system, freedom-loving.

she also risked her life -- knowingly -- to save her son. that is heroic. i suppose if she had killed a balrog or a fell-beast, she would be a lot more popular.

i do find it ironic that her love of freedom propelled her out of gondolin, only to endure the constraints of another sort of captivity.


/


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Na Vedui
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 11:30pm

Post #15 of 26 (218 views)
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But wasn't Eowyn [In reply to] Can't Post

the daughter of Théoden's sister?
Yes, just found it in LOTR Appendixes - his youngest sister Theodwyn. So she would have a Gondorian granny at least. Whether that would be good enough for Denethor, I don't know - perhaps depends how keen he was to strengthen his alliance with Rohan!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 11:32pm

Post #16 of 26 (214 views)
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yes, forgot that [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, indeed... i forgot that. and i was just looking at theoden's bio today, even.

so eowyn does have gondorian blood, 'tho (agreed) i'm still not sure if that would be good enough for denethor, with a lothloriel flitting around.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Na Vedui
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 11:50pm

Post #17 of 26 (216 views)
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But perhaps good enough [In reply to] Can't Post

(in Denethor's opinion) for Faramir. So all's rosy in Gondor and poor old Eomer is left on the shelf. (Not for long though, I bet!)


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 4 2013, 12:01am

Post #18 of 26 (215 views)
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Deep irony in Aredhel's story [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
i just posted the same thought re gondolin. that it was fated to fall. also, that it's fall was more directly traceable to maeglin than aredhel. (your reference to toast crumbs invoked a mental chuckle.)

aredhel has all the qualities we usually like in our shieldmaidens: fearless, strong, physically adept, independent, wiling to buck the system, freedom-loving.

she also risked her life -- knowingly -- to save her son. that is heroic. i suppose if she had killed a balrog or a fell-beast, she would be a lot more popular.

i do find it ironic that her love of freedom propelled her out of gondolin, only to endure the constraints of another sort of captivity.


/




Indeed - on many levels. And I just read your post, and was going to write agreement back as well!

True, she did make choices for Maeglin's sake - which ironically cost her life. And also due to Maeglin's own choices Gondolin...and I agree with Darkstone here, it is the nature of Gondolin (especially Gondolin) to suffer a fall eventually so the unknown is just the 'when' and 'how'.

Yes - your last bit is spot on. She traded captivities, although one had more adult appeal I suppose then the other; the perpetual Sister role I am sure did not suit her, but for a time the Bride did. But so true: both were not the ultimate freedom she sought.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















Darkstone
Immortal


Oct 4 2013, 5:45pm

Post #19 of 26 (190 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always seen remarkable parallels in The Little Prince: The Taming of the Fox/The Taming of Smeagol, The Pilot/Sam, and of course, The Little Prince/Frodo.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


CuriousG
Valinor


Oct 4 2013, 6:13pm

Post #20 of 26 (217 views)
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Lust and Maeglin [In reply to] Can't Post

So how much of this naughty elf-lust led to Maeglin's corruption, do you suppose? Did his parent's not-exactly-meant-to-be marriage mean he was a defective person from birth since mom & dad didn't follow the normal Elven path to falling in love? Or was he skewed by their unhappy marriage, or both?

Later on, he develops a very unnatural and unreciprocated lust for cousin Idril. Was this an inherited trait of lust obscuring the spiritual, mutual attraction Elves are supposed to experience?

Back to Aredhel: what always strikes me about her story is that she doesn't seem very mature regardless of her age and is more the rebellious, restless teenager. I think of Eowyn in a similar way. A difference would be that Aredhel led a sheltered, possibly even spoiled life, whereas Eowyn was grounded in reality and had some hardships to face like being an orphan and watching her uncle dwindle prematurely.

I wonder if Aredhel's naivete was largely to blame for falling in love with Eol, thinking, "My life's been great thus far. How could anything go wrong? And this guy is a smith and owns his own forest. And wouldn't this marriage really infuriate the rest of the family and show I can make my own decisions!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Oct 4 2013, 9:08pm

Post #21 of 26 (179 views)
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Good question - I don't know the truth of it [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So how much of this naughty elf-lust led to Maeglin's corruption, do you suppose? Did his parent's not-exactly-meant-to-be marriage mean he was a defective person from birth since mom & dad didn't follow the normal Elven path to falling in love? Or was he skewed by their unhappy marriage, or both?
Later on, he develops a very unnatural and unreciprocated lust for cousin Idril. Was this an inherited trait of lust obscuring the spiritual, mutual attraction Elves are supposed to experience?
The way Maeglin and the Fall of Gondolin is written, it feels like there is the suggestion that there is a 'taint' abut Maeglin; does that arise from the pairing of his parents? From the somewhat distant father that Eol seems to have been? Or is JRRT making a point via Maeglin about some of the ideas Telpemairo discussed above - the Elf sight being impaired, and what's its consequences are. I'm not sure...is Maeglin the knife edge of Fate versus free Will? Starting off at a limited disadvantage, and having the option to rise above it or fall because of it? Certainly there is no impediment to his Free Will in the published Sil. It seems his choice is to follow his unrequited love-turned-lust after Idril, and the rest of it all hangs on that choice. So its a complex question.



Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!

















Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2013, 12:21am

Post #22 of 26 (166 views)
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veering off into defying natural laws territory [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just to clarify, i don't think it was entirely elf-lust with eol and aredhel. but i think there was a dash of it. so i (for myself) would not classify the eol-aredhel pairing as "not-exactly-meant-to-be." i think to refer to it that way implies that eol and aredhel defied some natural laws or something, and reaped the unholy consequences of their actions (maeglin).

i will confess, though, that was pretty much my take for many years. that eol was darkened in his heart, his darkness spread over aredhel, and a child born to them was their dark fruit.

i think it's a tough call, because eol's first incarnations in earlier drafts (if i'm recalling correctly) he was imprisoned and tortured by morgoth. broken and corrupted. i also found a reference on the web that stated in earlier incarnations of the story, eol did rape aredhel, but tolkien later decided that elves are incapable of rape. i've not read that portion of home, so i can't verify, myself.

but the shadow of those earlier incarnations of eol still are in the present tale.

i will also add that eol cursed maeglin as he was thrown over the walls of gondolin. now, in the present day, curses are just ill thoughts. but in those days, and spoken by an elf (who had already demonstrated great ability by ensnaring the valinorian elf, aredhel, with enchantments), eol's curses might have been effective enough to cause a slow-burning corruption in maeglin.

regarding elf-sight: i don't believe tolkien meant that there was only one, true love for every elf. i think he meant that elves had better ability to see into a person, to know themselves, and to assess others as to their suitability for partnership. that they were not as easily beguiled by simple beauty in this regard, because they could also see into the soul. but that doesn't mean that there was only one soul out there for ever elf. i think they just had better insight and better inclinations.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Oct 5 2013, 12:28am

Post #23 of 26 (167 views)
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aredhel's frame of reference [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i have a different take on aredhel.

i don't see her as a sort of rebellious, restless teenager. she's just as mature and adventure-driven as galadriel. only galadriel didn't have a brother who made it illegal for her to leave the realm. galadriel was so itching to get out of valinor, she (not aredhel) was the one who took a stand and gave a speech and spurred other to leave. which tolkien repeatedly refers to as a "rebellion." looking at the two of them side by side, and the way aredhel is usually assessed, you would think aredhel would have been the rebellious one on that day in valinor.

i think galadriel is more political, but she wasn't always the chessmaster she later grew into being. i think she and her cousin, aredhel, have a lot in common. i wonder what choices galadriel might have made, if she were under the same or similar constrictions as aredhel.

to sum up, i think of aredhel as a mature person. she just happens to be the sort of person who hates to be ordered around and shut in.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Na Vedui
Rohan


Oct 5 2013, 9:38pm

Post #24 of 26 (151 views)
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Aredhel in Gondolin [In reply to] Can't Post

is like a huntin' shootin' and fishin' girl from a country estate stuck in a sort of Groundhog Day London season. Polite calls on the same polite Elf ladies, balls with the same guys you've danced with for the past x hundred years, nice little rides in the park, just think of it! I'm sure Gondolin was much more beautiful than London, with a wonderful artistic and cultural life, but it wasn't the wide open spaces and not being allowed to leave would put the lid on it. She was irresponsible to leave as she did, because there were some truly terrible enemies out there looking for the city, but I can sympathise a good deal with how she was driven to it.


elaen32
Gondor


Oct 6 2013, 11:27am

Post #25 of 26 (138 views)
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But.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Did the Gondorians have the same rules about marrying cousins as the Elves? I haven't got the book with me, so may be totally wrong, but wasn't Finduilas, mother of Boromir and Faramir, the sister of Prince Imrahil, and thus Lothloriel's aunt? There was great consternation among the Dunedain when Aragorn's parents ( or was it grandparents?), who were close cousins married, so I wondered if the Gondorians felt similarly?Crazy If it comes to that, Eomer and Lothloriel were cousins, although at a greater removeCrazyCrazy Just saying...Smile


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!


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