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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
No Dol Guldur and Lake Town
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Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 11:56am

Post #1 of 41 (1322 views)
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No Dol Guldur and Lake Town Can't Post

So if I understand correctly we won't see neither attack on Dol Guldur nor destruction of Lake Town in the second movie. With no material regarding the second White Council and it's members, no Cate Blanchett appearance in DOS and especially no hint of great "wizard battle" in the last two trailers we can assume that the second movie will end with Gandalf's discoveries in Dol Guldur and the great orc army that is marching somewhere.
I also doubt that we will see any attack on Lake Town because again there were no hints of that in the trailer and movie will probably end with Smaug leaving Erebor after his conversation with Bilbo.

Now we come to a question how will they show all of this in TABA? We are talking about 3 major events (battle for Dol Guldur, attack on Lake Town and Battle of the five armies + emotional ending with other smaller scenes) and unless one of them will be shown very quickly as a prologue I cannot imagine myself how will they put such important events in just 3 hours while in AUJ not a single event was so important and movie was still of the same lenght. TABA will then literaly explode of action and in this case the last movie should be the greatest of all six and not DOS that is only connecting bridge between the beginning and ending of the story.


Remus
Lorien

Oct 3 2013, 12:02pm

Post #2 of 41 (784 views)
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Dol Guldur battle in this movie! [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope and keep my thumbs crossed that the battle of Dol Guldur takes place in this movie! It must!

I can't wait anymore for Gandalf finally understanding it is "you know who" and they fight 1on1 and hear the Necromancer (Benedicts super awesome voice) talk. Shocked


But maybe you are right. Maybe it ends with Gandalf entering Dol Guldur, fight the Necromancer and he understands who he is and then a horn blows and thousands upon thousands of orcs leave the caves beneath Dol Guldur.

What a cliffhanger. Much bigger than the with Smaugs eye. Shocked


Lost Hobbit
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 12:17pm

Post #3 of 41 (682 views)
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The battle [In reply to] Can't Post

Very roughly...did Gandalf arrive at men's camp? Wasn't this when he was back from the Dol Guldur battle?


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Oct 3 2013, 12:44pm

Post #4 of 41 (651 views)
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What makes you think so? The lack of footage in the trailer [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to admit that all is pretty telling... and disappointing. I was hoping we would get some of the epicness in this movie already, but it keeps getting postponed and postponed. And even more so; what will be the content of this film then? I don't want to leave the movie theater dissatisfied again, feeling I've just seen a glorified tv episode, or a massive trailer for the actual movie to come.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Shagrat
Gondor

Oct 3 2013, 12:49pm

Post #5 of 41 (619 views)
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The Orc Army [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't yet know that this is the Necromancer's force for the battle, and that they may make a large-scale battle of it, with Elrond bringing a host with him (say 500 men, leaving them heavily outnumbered). As I've said before, a huge sacrifice on Rivendell's part would be a good way to account for Elrond's sour demeanour in the LOTR films, and the general feeling of emptiness around Rivendell by the time of FOTR (in movie canon).


Remus
Lorien

Oct 3 2013, 12:51pm

Post #6 of 41 (596 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Come one. Really? Gandalf goes through probably almost the whole fortress of Dol Guldur. Radagast encountered the Necromancer. So why wouldn't the Necromancer show himself now? I know he is weakened but come on? If the Necromancer just gonna play hide and seek it's going to be really really lame. Mad


So basically we get some spider fights in this movie along with meeting Smaug. But no bigger battles? One orc pack attacking Tauriel and Legolas and the rest is just talk with Beorn and Thranduil.

There you got the whole movie.

If they remove the Dol Guldur battle.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 1:01pm

Post #7 of 41 (591 views)
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DoS is hardly lacking in action [In reply to] Can't Post

Not everything should be a big battle. We'll have spider attack, quite inventive barrell scene, Bilbo and Smaug convo is more exciting than Nuclear Boo Galadriel' Dol Guldur takedown antics or anything for the matter, some Laketown action is certainly going to take place (Orc attack?) since Tauriel is going to heal Bard's youngest daughter. maybe Smaug attacks too.

Heck, IMO, best bits in the trailer were character moments: Balin's defense of Bilbo ("his name is Bilbo!"), Bilbo lying to Gandalf (" ...courage"), Bard calling Thorin out on his greed, Bilbo and Smaug. And character is what DoS needs the most for there was barely any in AUJ which was all cartoonish action.

So I'm actually very pleased with the balance of action and character displayed in the trailer and super-pleased that there's no Galadriel, Elrond,Saruman in it because there are new characters, as well as old ones, that need more screen time. And the WC trio is not it. They are really marginal in comparison to the main gang and most important supporting players.

So yeah, if they are keping DG for third movie when we know enough about all characters to care for them the better. Instead of wasting them in favor of another glitzy SFX driven video-game like action sequence.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Oct 3 2013, 1:03pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 1:08pm

Post #8 of 41 (573 views)
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I don't think we can be sure of either... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still certain we will see the destruction of Laketown as the climax of DOS, because it's too big and emotional a scene to throw away at the start of a film. To me it seems the logical conclusion of the storylines they've hinted at in the trailers.

I've no idea about Dol Guldur - what shape the climax of that is going to take or how big it will be, but at a guess I'd say it may be smaller, or something other than a pitched battle, and it may come early on in TABA.

I don't believe there is any chance at all that they will put all three into the final film.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 1:39pm

Post #9 of 41 (531 views)
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IMO, DG should never take away from Smaug and/or BOFA [In reply to] Can't Post

It shouldn't be a central piece in any movie. It's just a set up for events in LOTR but the real deal have always been Smaug attack (IMO, the real climax of the book) and BOFA.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 2:00pm

Post #10 of 41 (503 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to make judgements of Dol Guldur yet, we have so little to go on. I think they were right to include it because it does hover in the background of the story. I don't see it so much a set up for what happens later as an explanation of what Gandalf is up to, and why he keeps disappearing. But as for how they handle it, I think I would be disappointed to see just another pitched battle. And I agree that it shouldn't have the screen time or the importance of the destruction of Laketown and Five Armies


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 3:09pm

Post #11 of 41 (464 views)
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Gandalf in Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I hope and keep my thumbs crossed that the battle of Dol Guldur takes place in this movie! It must!

I can't wait anymore for Gandalf finally understanding it is "you know who" and they fight 1on1 and hear the Necromancer (Benedicts super awesome voice) talk. Shocked


But maybe you are right. Maybe it ends with Gandalf entering Dol Guldur, fight the Necromancer and he understands who he is and then a horn blows and thousands upon thousands of orcs leave the caves beneath Dol Guldur.

What a cliffhanger. Much bigger than the with Smaugs eye. Shocked



I don't doubt that Gandalf finds the proof of the Necromancer's identitiy in The Desolation of Smaug. However, he still has to present his findings to the White Council before there can be a battle (unless Jackson alters things to the point where Gandalf is captured, Radagast brings word to the Council, and the Council comes to rescue him). The actual assault could then be delayed until There and Back Again, although I really think that it should happen, chronologically, before Smaug's attack on Lake-town.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


MEIGWIT
Bree


Oct 3 2013, 3:27pm

Post #12 of 41 (441 views)
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It's pretty simple really [In reply to] Can't Post

The formula has already been created with the Lord of the Rings trilogy and it works very very well. The logical end to DOS is simply the destruction of Laketown with Dol Guldur and Gandalf/Rhadagast intercut. My bet is that this is where Jackson has taken some liberties with timeline and content. I believe he will have to generate some sort of confrontation at Dol Guldur with Rhadagast, Gandalf, and the evil that lies there. It will change canon, but I feel it is necessary. It will be very very similar to The Two Towers climax in that it will intercut Laketown and Dol Guldur as Two Towers intercut Helm's Deep and Isengard. The emotional end of this film will be despair for the fact that 1. Laketown has been destroyed and 2. The necromancer has revealed himself and who he is with the evil too great for Gandalf and Rhadagast to defeat on their own. Then the only way to logically create interest in a third movie, is the denouement of the film will be the white council deciding to attack Dol Guldur, with anger and sorrow in Laketown towards the mountain, jealousy from the elves in Mirkwood, and rage that the king has returned under the mountain by Azog. That logically leaves the "James Bond Action Begining" of the destruction of Dol Guldur for the third film. The Battle of 5 armies then stands on its own feet as the climax with the rest of the film building to it, much like the last stand at the black gate in Return of the King. The battle will cut between all 25 of the main characters and their struggle to survive. It will be an extremely dramatic and emotional battle. So, in my opinion, it's a pretty simple setup and pretty logical when you think about it.

This is my opinion, but it seems very logical to me in order to craft the films.

It is the little things in life that keep the darkness at bay.


Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 3:33pm

Post #13 of 41 (402 views)
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Everything you said makes a lot of sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't necessarily want to argue one way or another how the movie will end, since I'm just going in with a blank sheet, but I think that this way would make a ton of sense in relation to the two remaining films.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 3:35pm

Post #14 of 41 (398 views)
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That's very likely [In reply to] Can't Post

but the reason why I cannot warm up to DG and really don't care whether it's in the movies at all is that I simply don't care for cold characters such as Elrond, galadriel and saruman and radagast annoys the hell out of me. My emotional investment isn't with them and they seem to create the exis of anti-DG forces or something. Shrug.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



dormouse
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 3:47pm

Post #15 of 41 (382 views)
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Logical, as you say [In reply to] Can't Post

But I don't think trailing the atack on Dol Guldur is the only way to create interest in the third film. My logical (and, I think, Peter Jackson style) theory for that is to end with the dwarves in Erebor, thinking they've won and the mountain is theirs - then, just as it looks as if the credits are about to roll, we see the news reaching the elves, the Lakemen, Dain and the orcs, and the armies preparing to march on the mountain.

But yes, your version of Dol Guldur would work.


Bombadil
Half-elven


Oct 3 2013, 3:52pm

Post #16 of 41 (385 views)
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We saw less than 1% of the Final Product/// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 3:57pm

Post #17 of 41 (390 views)
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Hmm... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still not sure about the whole Dol Guldur battle in film 3. Now I know this isn't representative of what will be in the film, eg spiders in mirkwood set with AUJ, but LEGO are releasing a "Dol Guldur Ambush" and "Dol Guldur Battle" set later this year. Whether this indicates we will be seeing the battle in film 2 remains to be seen as they did release certain sets with AUJ that the scenes haven't appeared till this film.


(This post was edited by BornOutOfTheWest on Oct 3 2013, 3:58pm)


nhui06
Rivendell

Oct 3 2013, 4:10pm

Post #18 of 41 (351 views)
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Agree with you here [In reply to] Can't Post

The Dol Guldur battle scene will best be suited for the Third Film. After all, didn't PJ say he wanted to make a third film to help connect the Hobbit with LOTR more? The last half of DOS should really focus on Smaug VS the Dwarves. If we get a lot of Smaug in DOS, then we do not need Smaug anymore for the Third film. A horrific attack on Lake Town, followed by a face off with Bard will be the perfect ending to DOS. We saw how mad Bard was with Thorin for trying to go to Erebor, so one of the last scenes could be Bard essentially cursing the Dwarves and getting ready for revenge.

Now, the trailers seem to set up the Dol Guldur storyline as just Gandalf playing the investigator, which is perfect for DOS. Gandalf pokes around Dol Guldur, find Thrain, find the Necromencer, and gets captured - that will leave a good cliff hanger for the audience to want to come back to the third film to see what happens to Gandalf - the White Council will come to the rescue and destroy Dol Guldur. This leads to the Necromencer fleeing to Mordor in the third film, which is a perfect way to bridge LOTR.


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 4:29pm

Post #19 of 41 (336 views)
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Very good theory [In reply to] Can't Post

and also very probable. I already stated in another thread that two epic scenes would be too much at the end of the movie and that we can learn much from the LOTR. I am certain that we would get at least some glimpse of battle with Necromancer or the second White Council in this trailer if they wanted to finish Dol Guldur story in DOS. Since there is no such scenes and we get only a massive orc army I believe the second movie will indeed end with Gandalf and Radagast discovery of the true evil in Dol Guldur and then they will escape (I much prefer that he escapes with Radagast than that he is captured) and inform White Council of their discoveries in the third movie.

On the other hand we saw quite a lot of Smaug in the last trailer and since the movie title is Desolation of Smaug I believe his character will be the main one here. It would be only fitting then that Smaug dies and with Laketown destroyed his story ends.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Oct 3 2013, 4:40pm

Post #20 of 41 (327 views)
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Great point [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
LEGO are releasing a "Dol Guldur Ambush" and "Dol Guldur Battle" set later this year.



It makes me chuckle a little that, as hard as they try to keep wraps on parts of the plot, they're sometimes revealed anyway by the introduction of LEGO toys. Laugh


Quote
they did release certain sets with AUJ that the scenes haven't appeared till this film.


I wonder if that was more a function of having the toys ready to go before they announced the 3-movie split? If their toys are no synchronized with the main plots of the next two movies, that could seal the deal of having most, if not all, of the Dol Gulder plot play out in DoS.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Bernhardina
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 5:03pm

Post #21 of 41 (292 views)
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Very interesting to see [In reply to] Can't Post

... how PJ has been working with the 2-films turning into a trilogy thing, because in the first trailer to an unexpected journey we see alot of Gandalf in Dol Guldur so the battle was pobably planned for There And Back Again originally. Maybe they will feel DoS need a battle in the end, that's what I though at least since Bo5A probably will be a very dominant part of the last film.

Anyway, I don't think Smaug will die in DoS. It would make no sense whatsoever to kill the main antagonist in the second part of a trilogy. They will probably kill him in the beginning of TABA as we've seen them do in the ROTK with Saruman. But then, my guesses are usually wrong Frown

I hope the ending of DoS will be Smaug flying towards Laketown (and attacking it in the beginning of TABA) and cut to Gandalf and Radagast finding out stuff about the necromancer at Dol Guldur. Kinda Sly

"There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues of Men for this treachery.


sycorax82
Rohan

Oct 3 2013, 5:06pm

Post #22 of 41 (292 views)
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They won't be in because there has to be enough saved for TABA [In reply to] Can't Post

This is like saving Shelob for ROTK. If they hadn't that would have given Frodo and Sam very little to do in the ROTK film. If you have the battle at Dol Guldur and the destruction of Laketown in DoS, what do you leave for TABA?


BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell


Oct 3 2013, 5:31pm

Post #23 of 41 (264 views)
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Yeah, [In reply to] Can't Post

Revealing that Tauriel and Legolas fought the spiders with the dwarves, through a lego set was, was probably not the best idea :P

Yeah, maybe we'll get a better idea of what the "Battle of Dol Guldur actually is, when they release the set.


Hanzkaz
Rohan

Oct 3 2013, 7:01pm

Post #24 of 41 (236 views)
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I suspect *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

Smaug will die at the end of DOS -


Quote
On the other hand we saw quite a lot of Smaug in the last trailer and since the movie title is Desolation of Smaug I believe his character will be the main one here. It would be only fitting then that Smaug dies and with Laketown destroyed his story ends.


- as well as apparently taking Bard with him. And just when the plight of Lake-Town's survivors gets increasingly worse in the third film, the Bowman makes his heroic return.

I think TABA will begin in a bad place for all the good guys, with Bilbo and Co. trapped in the Mountain, Lake Town in ruins and the White Council in the midst of dealing with the Necromancer. (I wouldn't be surprised if the Dol Guldur confrontation was split between Films 2 and 3).

___________________________________________________


From the makers of 'The Lord of the Rings' comes the sequel to Peter Jackson's Hobbit Trilogy -
'The War in the North, Part I : The Sword in the Tomb'.



(This post was edited by entmaiden on Oct 3 2013, 9:18pm)


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Oct 3 2013, 7:09pm

Post #25 of 41 (215 views)
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Not necessarily... [In reply to] Can't Post

It could mean the actual place on the map (the 'Desolation of Smaug' - where Dale had once stood proudly) as there seems to be quite a lot of things going on down there (judging by Production Videos and the Desolation of Smaug Teaser Event).

I could be wrong - but, I'm just saying don't get your hopes up too high. Wink Smaug may see another movie - we do not know.

I think they'll end the Desolation of Smaug film on a happy note - perhaps when Smaug leaves the mountain and Thorin is "King" for the time-being...
But, then again, that's just my opinion.

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

...... ~ Thorin Oakenshield

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