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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Saruman and his corruption to evil

morro91
Bree

Oct 2 2013, 9:43am

Post #1 of 8 (518 views)
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Saruman and his corruption to evil Can't Post

Something struck me about the line "We've been blind and in our blindness our enemy has returned"

Given Saruman's absolute insistence that nothing was happening in AUJ and how wrong he turned out to be. And given that LOTR films played Saruman more as Sauron's ally rather than explicitly going for the ring himself.

My theory is that he may start using the Palantir found in Isengard as a response to his lack of foresight and that Sauron ensnares him to evil that way. There is no evidence in the film universe that Saruman himself is going after the ring yet, though potentially he might.


deskp
Lorien

Oct 2 2013, 1:35pm

Post #2 of 8 (215 views)
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hmm [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe we see him picking up the palintir in dol guldur!


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Oct 2 2013, 2:36pm

Post #3 of 8 (199 views)
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Well, it was hinted at that Saruman was working towards his own ends... [In reply to] Can't Post

In TTT, when the Mordor Orcs and the Isengard Uruk-hai start bickering over where to take Merry and Pippin, Ugluk says "Saruman shall have his prize" in response to Grishnakh stating that Sauron is growing impatient. Was this only in the EE though? I can't remember, since I have not watched any of the TEs since the EEs were released. But you're right, for the most part the films didn't really touch on Saruman's double-dealing, and his desire to BE the Dark Lord rather than just side with the Dark Lord.

Interesting thought about the Palantir. Canonically, Saruman wouldn't begin using the Palantir for another 50-60 years, but I think moving that for the film might make sense, and would serve as a nice subtle way of hinting at his descent into evil. Maybe show him putting his hand on the Palantir and have the Eye pop up for a split-second, similar to when Gandalf first came to the realization about the Palantir in FotR. Although I really don't think it is at all necessary, it would be a nice little tidbit, and I think it could be done without making it so explicit as to ruin the surprise for those who haven't seen the LotR series.

The one problem I see is that, in film-verse, the Nazgul apparently haven't yet taken Minas Ithil (since they've been sealed in tombs for the last few hundred years), so that would mean that Sauron is not yet in possession of the Ithil Stone. There is always the possibility that only a few of the Nazgul are in DG with the recuperating Sauron, while the rest did in fact return to Mordor to begin preparing for Sauron's imminent return (and captured Minas Ithil in the meantime). There's also the possibility that PJ could instead place one of the Palantiri in Dol Guldur - not canon, but would work if they wanted to show Saruman's ensnarement in some way. As far as I'm concerned, the deeper PJ goes into background/historical lore, the better - but I doubt PJ will put much, if any, focus on the Palantiri, Saruman's fall, or Minas Ithil. And if he does, I think it would have to be in an epilogue-type of scene. Still, fun to speculate, and I'm hoping in Saruman's limited screentime, there is some hint at his treachery. We will just have to wait and see how that plays out.

Done rambling for now Wink


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Oct 2 2013, 2:44pm)


vexx801
Rivendell


Oct 2 2013, 5:46pm

Post #4 of 8 (124 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

I've noted elsewhere the probablity of seeing Saruman find the Palantir at Dol Guldur. Not only would it allow us a brief opportunity to see The Eye, but it would also be a hint of Saruman's fall - a major nod to fans of LotR - and would also make sense within the six-film saga to show the Palantir prior to FotR, so that once we see Saruman with one in FotR, the audience knows its not good as it was found in Dol Guldur.

It would make sense to me if Saruman goes off on his own to look around the wreckage of Dol Guldur after (presumably) Galadriel rips it apart. Similar to Merry and Pippin exploring Isengard post-Ent attack, we'd see Saruman finding the Palantir.

Now I want to see this. Smile


(This post was edited by vexx801 on Oct 2 2013, 5:47pm)


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Oct 2 2013, 6:13pm

Post #5 of 8 (113 views)
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Evil Seed [In reply to] Can't Post

Hmmm....

Galadriel always distrusted Saruman, at least since the founding of the White Council. He himself said so when she and Gandalf ran into him, stating something like that he knew that she never liked him, and did not trust her, as she was always scheming for Gandalf (which could be true for the good of things). I'm a bit puzzled how she can do this to an Istari (and why did not Gandalf sense the same thing)? She also mistrusted Annatar (who turned to be Sauron in disguise). Perhaps Galadriel can't read his mind fully, but enough to know he his hiding or suppressing something (like Counsellor Troi..lol).

Hence, I am not sure when he started to become evil? Did Saruman have a Maiar name before he became an Istari? Surely, with his power, he couldn't have been enslaved by the Palantir just like that or during a few glimpses. If the One Ring did not corrupt Bilbo or Frodo immediately, why should something less powerful do so immediately? Also, did the Valor or Eru (whoever sent the Maiar as Istaris) the made a mistake?


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Oct 2 2013, 6:55pm

Post #6 of 8 (97 views)
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The chapter on "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales.... [In reply to] Can't Post

will give you the answers to your questions... Here is a commentary that gives extensive quotes from the chapter: Smile

http://tolkien.cro.net/else/ngershaneck.html


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2013, 9:43pm

Post #7 of 8 (61 views)
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They could have taken Ithil before being *vomits a little at the lie* "sealed away" Ucgch! [In reply to] Can't Post

See what happens when you play too many damned games with the lore??? Anyway, it could be in the wackyverse that the final fall of Angmar happened later, maybe even as late as 400 years before this Hobbit Timeline since its 400 years that Elrond says they have had peace, and the Ithil fall is still around the year 2000 TA, with Glorfindel aiding the Men of The North in putting down Angmar (That's right, I SAID IT, Lore accuracy amidst the confusion! lol ) sometime after that. Thus, Ithil stone still long in Sauron's possession, and a good candidate for how he knew Thorin was in the wild with the prompting and aid of a Wizard.

In Reply To
In TTT, when the Mordor Orcs and the Isengard Uruk-hai start bickering over where to take Merry and Pippin, Ugluk says "Saruman shall have his prize" in response to Grishnakh stating that Sauron is growing impatient. Was this only in the EE though? I can't remember, since I have not watched any of the TEs since the EEs were released. But you're right, for the most part the films didn't really touch on Saruman's double-dealing, and his desire to BE the Dark Lord rather than just side with the Dark Lord.

Interesting thought about the Palantir. Canonically, Saruman wouldn't begin using the Palantir for another 50-60 years, but I think moving that for the film might make sense, and would serve as a nice subtle way of hinting at his descent into evil. Maybe show him putting his hand on the Palantir and have the Eye pop up for a split-second, similar to when Gandalf first came to the realization about the Palantir in FotR. Although I really don't think it is at all necessary, it would be a nice little tidbit, and I think it could be done without making it so explicit as to ruin the surprise for those who haven't seen the LotR series.

The one problem I see is that, in film-verse, the Nazgul apparently haven't yet taken Minas Ithil (since they've been sealed in tombs for the last few hundred years), so that would mean that Sauron is not yet in possession of the Ithil Stone. There is always the possibility that only a few of the Nazgul are in DG with the recuperating Sauron, while the rest did in fact return to Mordor to begin preparing for Sauron's imminent return (and captured Minas Ithil in the meantime). There's also the possibility that PJ could instead place one of the Palantiri in Dol Guldur - not canon, but would work if they wanted to show Saruman's ensnarement in some way. As far as I'm concerned, the deeper PJ goes into background/historical lore, the better - but I doubt PJ will put much, if any, focus on the Palantiri, Saruman's fall, or Minas Ithil. And if he does, I think it would have to be in an epilogue-type of scene. Still, fun to speculate, and I'm hoping in Saruman's limited screentime, there is some hint at his treachery. We will just have to wait and see how that plays out.

Done rambling for now Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Oct 2 2013, 9:51pm

Post #8 of 8 (59 views)
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Curumo, mighty amongst the Maiar closest in kinship and mind to Aule, not unlike Sauron. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I don't think it required Galadriel to see into Saruman's mind, which I doubt she could do much of against his will without his knowing, especially early on. Yet his demeanor said a lot, and not all of it good. Proud, willful, desiring mastery. Traits that had been seen in Feanor, that Galadriel had herself, though she was self-aware enough to realize it and their negative implications, and traits that had marked his fellow Maiar Sauron.

She could not have known anything, or she would have objected to him more forcefully, but he likely made her uneasy, as Sauron had done, whereas Gandalf had exactly the opposite effect.

As to The Valar... Saruman was a mighty and wise Spirit, but more mighty than wise and certainly less wise than Olorin/Gandalf. Olorin was likely as mighty as Curumo, but he had foresight, and knew that, in Middle-Earth, embodied, he would have cause to fear Sauron and his influence. Curomo did not properly appreciate this, and sought to strive with Sauron directly against the orders of those who sent him, and he proved inadequate to that particular feat.

Sauron, it is said, understood and could very easily anticipate Saruman and his actions, even without the pallantir, because Saruman, very unlike Gandalf and Radagast, behaved in ways Sauron himself would have in his kinspirit's position.

In Reply To
Hmmm....

Galadriel always distrusted Saruman, at least since the founding of the White Council. He himself said so when she and Gandalf ran into him, stating something like that he knew that she never liked him, and did not trust her, as she was always scheming for Gandalf (which could be true for the good of things). I'm a bit puzzled how she can do this to an Istari (and why did not Gandalf sense the same thing)? She also mistrusted Annatar (who turned to be Sauron in disguise). Perhaps Galadriel can't read his mind fully, but enough to know he his hiding or suppressing something (like Counsellor Troi..lol).

Hence, I am not sure when he started to become evil? Did Saruman have a Maiar name before he became an Istari? Surely, with his power, he couldn't have been enslaved by the Palantir just like that or during a few glimpses. If the One Ring did not corrupt Bilbo or Frodo immediately, why should something less powerful do so immediately? Also, did the Valor or Eru (whoever sent the Maiar as Istaris) the made a mistake?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

 
 

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