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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Worried about the... (HUGE BOOK SPOILER)
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QuackingTroll
Valinor


Sep 29 2013, 11:42am

Post #1 of 32 (2177 views)
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Worried about the... (HUGE BOOK SPOILER) Can't Post

Let's talk about the death scene (s?)

I'm a little worried about this. Peter Jackson has previously handled death incredibly well. Boromir and Gandalf are particularly fine examples. Even King Kong was emotionally successful. So I know this scene has a lot of potential. But while the aforementioned examples are great, there are certain things PJ does that I really don't like and I'm worried he'll throw this potential away by using over-emotional techniques.

To be more specific I'm predominantly thinking of The Return of the King's ending. The last thing I want to see after the famous last words is a slow montage of all the dwarves' faces as they mourn their loss, followed by a slow motion burial. It could work well, but PJ has a knack for going a bit too cheesy and this is the last place I would want that to happen.

Of course, I also don't want it to be emotionless, it's a very fine line that PJ is walking here and, in my opinion, if it's too subtle or not subtle enough he could potentially ruin one of the most important scenes in the entire franchise.

Does anyone else share my concern? How do you see the scene playing out?

If there's anything else anyone wants to discuss regarding this scene then speak up! I want to keep this an open discussion, so go as off-topic as you like.

Thanks!


Peterthorn of Rohan
Rivendell

Sep 29 2013, 12:00pm

Post #2 of 32 (1483 views)
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Well.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its gonna be one of the highlights of taba and I am almost sure that tauriel won't take a part in the death scene, since lilly had finished shooting, when they shot a scene with Thorin(main unit) and Fili Kili(second unit ) which will probably the death scene.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 1:47pm

Post #3 of 32 (1284 views)
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Honestly? I don't see the scene playing out in any particular way just now... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a long way off, we have a whole other film to watch and discuss our way through yet, and I'm at a complete loss as to why you should want to raise it, or raise it in this way, just now. What purpose does it serve, looking for things that might not appeal to you, trying to chew over what Peter Jackson might get 'wrong' (for you) fifteen months in advance?

The climax of 'There and Back Again' will be different. Different from Boromir's death, or Gandalf, or King Kong. Or from the moment which I think you're referring to in RotK - not, in fact, the ending, but the moment after Barad Dur implodes and Sauron's armies scatter. Peter Jackson had to convey something very complicated there. Not simply grief, but the awful turning point from elation - when the Companions knew that Frodo had succeeded - to the despairing realisation that he and Sam were caught in the middle of all that turmoil, if they weren't already dead. and all that in a few seconds, without words. I thought it was very well done. You thought it was cheesy. OK, there's nothing anyone can do about that, but if I were you, I'd try to focus more on the scenes PJ has done in a way that you do like. Why would you assume that the climax of TABA won't be like that, or better?

And maybe try to think a bit less of 'I want', 'the last thing I want to see' and be ready to engage with what is. (I'm not meaning just you, but all the people in here who seem to be worrying that this or that or the other scene won't be done the 'right' way.) Why not try to let go and let the film be what it is? Let Peter Jackson tell you the story in whatever way he wants to do it, and only afterwards decide which bits worked for you and which didn't?

Because after all the threads I've read in here I reckon that something W.H.Auden said about reading fairy tales, in an afterword to George Macdonald's The Golden Key, actually applies just as much to watching fairy tales, or imaginative stories of any kind:

Quote

"The way, the only way, to read a fairy tale is the same as that prescribed for Tangle at one stage of her journey. . . .

You must throw yourself in. there is no other way."



Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 2:28pm

Post #4 of 32 (1165 views)
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Bomby Loves dormouse! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Fretting over Nothing you have Control over?"
Cool beans...since we are Most Fortunate
to have a whole Team (What... 1500 strong?)
Trying to do...Tolkien Justice.

From John & Alan's designs,

Dan's set designs,

Andrew's Lens,

Peter's Hair &
Costumes...

even the Craft services (Foodies)

Truck Drivers,

GreensKeepers,

Should Bomby go on, and on?

They are Bomby's Heros

(JUST like reading the Books for the first time
these people's LIVES are forever changed)


Oleander Took
Rivendell


Sep 29 2013, 2:33pm

Post #5 of 32 (2287 views)
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No she hadn't [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember that girl that got a set visit past June with "Make a Wish" project? Lilly was there filming. Recently that girl got a letter from Armitage where *SPOILERS* he spoiled that that visit day was the day they were filming his death. When she realized what he had written she retired, it but a copy may still be around Tumblr since nothing disappears there in case you want to look at it *SPOILERS*

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


Peterthorn of Rohan
Rivendell

Sep 29 2013, 2:44pm

Post #6 of 32 (1270 views)
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Oh!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this official?


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 29 2013, 2:47pm

Post #7 of 32 (1168 views)
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I think it will be necessary [In reply to] Can't Post

to show each dwarf as he grieves, if only to reinforce who made it through the battle and who didn't (there will still be nine of them for the audience to keep track of, after all). As much time as has been spent to give each dwarf a unique personality, it seems like it would be a disservice to their character arc not to show each one grieving.

I'm not sure which slow motion scene you're referring to in ROTK, but I think some similar scenes PJ handled very well are the Fellowship grieving Gandalf's death outside of Moria (is that the Gandalf scene you were referring to?), Theodred's funeral and I have to agree with dormouse that the scene where the remaining Fellowship members go from the thrill of having won an impossible victory outside the Black Gate, to the realization that Frodo and Sam have almost certainly perished, was also well done. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it was subtly done because it was all done via the actor's expressions as opposed to someone saying out loud: OMG, Frodo and Sam almost certainly perished! So I think there's hope! Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





(This post was edited by Altaira on Sep 29 2013, 2:50pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 2:51pm

Post #8 of 32 (1213 views)
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OT...Wonderful! [In reply to] Can't Post

Bomby forgot that the Actors will Never be the same.
After "A Peter Jackson Experience"

Down the road they will take what they learned,
apply it to their Next roles,
and Cinema WINS,
as well as all the viewers.

Howard's music will push us to New Heights & Depths

Your ears wiil go places
..."Un-Believed Before"


Noria
Rohan

Sep 29 2013, 2:55pm

Post #9 of 32 (1155 views)
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dormouse, this is one of the best posts I've read on here lately. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I think those of us who think like you do have to accept that a lot of people get satisfaction or enjoyment from worrying about what is to come. I don't get it but that's their prerogative. I do think it's a bit premature to be concerned about TaBA when we haven't even seen DoS to get more of an idea where PJ is going.

I like this: "You must throw yourself in. there is no other way."

As for the issue at hand, given how the deaths of major characters in LotR were handled, I have no worries. I thought that the funerals of Theodred and Aragorn were great, especially the latter. What's wrong with emotion, especially in Tolkien?


Oleander Took
Rivendell


Sep 29 2013, 3:13pm

Post #10 of 32 (1229 views)
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What do you mean [In reply to] Can't Post

by official?

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 29 2013, 3:21pm

Post #11 of 32 (1212 views)
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It sounds like [In reply to] Can't Post

It's probably as unofficial as it could possibly be, which doesn't necessarily mean it's not true.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 29 2013, 3:51pm

Post #12 of 32 (1122 views)
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Worrying vs. speculation [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
a lot of people get satisfaction or enjoyment from worrying about what is to come



I think it's important to realize is that there's a difference between interested speculation and obsessed worrying. From what I've seen 99% of the people here who say they 'worry' or are 'concerned' are, in fact, just expressing their preferences and getting satisfaction and enjoyment from speculating about them with other people who are interested in the movies. They're not literally letting worrying about the upcoming movies dominate their lives. (Of course, there *is* that other 1% who are Laugh).

If not for speculation - pro and con - we'd have precious little to talk about in the next year and a bit. I don't see a whole lot of difference between saying: "I really liked this about the LOTR movies and hope PJ does something similar," and "I really didn't like this about the LOTR movies and hope PJ doesn't repeat it." Both are valid POVs and both can lead to good discussions by people with the same, and opposite, views.




Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 4:33pm

Post #13 of 32 (1107 views)
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Theoden's death was very well handled. I too fear the slo mo over row. [In reply to] Can't Post

Peter does sometimes slip into Matrix mode, and it really has little place in Middle-Earth. I am a little unsure about how the death will be handled, though I think the funerary procession will probably be amazingly and wrenchingly handled, with stately elegance.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Oleander Took
Rivendell


Sep 29 2013, 5:45pm

Post #14 of 32 (1119 views)
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Yeah, you are right [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing came from the studio nor PJ, but It's true she went, and it's true what she reported (which by the way includes more information than she thought she had included if you read it carefully Angelic). Also Armitage's letter is true, he even included a picture and explained that it was from a scene in Thranduil's prison, even including a line of dialogue. Hope this answers Peterthorn of Rohan's question :)

"There is nothing like looking, if you want to find something."


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 6:05pm

Post #15 of 32 (1098 views)
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OK - one small speculation for you.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...since you asked nicely. Smile

I wouldn't be surprised if the funeral doesn't turn out to be similar to Alan Lee's illustration http://i45.tinypic.com/wmmtll.jpg - because the architecture seems to echo the scale and shape of Erebor in the film. Except that I think (and rather hope) that it will be for all three dwarves. And I have no apprension at all about it, save only that it's going to be absolutely heartbreaking to watch.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 29 2013, 6:12pm

Post #16 of 32 (1459 views)
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Here's Richard's letter to her *MAJOR SPOILERS* [In reply to] Can't Post

I remembered reading about Samantha's visit to the set and her meeting several of the actors, and having a wonderful time there! She uses the tag "elvenbutterflies".

So I googled and found the letter:
*Link removed: the site no longer exists.*

WARNING: VERY MAJOR SPOILERS THEREIN. (I love the stationery he used!)

The scene was filmed the day he received her letter to him - she'd written letters to all the cast - but I don't know if that was the same day as her visit.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






(This post was edited by dernwyn on May 31 2014, 10:51am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 29 2013, 6:12pm

Post #17 of 32 (1067 views)
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I think we will get something very close to that chamber. [In reply to] Can't Post

I said a while back that the architecture in spy picture taken back in 2011, is very similar (almost identical) to the pillars in Lee's painting you link to.

Armitage only filmed his death scene in the recent pick-ups. But perhaps the funeral was filmed very early on. Perhaps this is the funeral chamber? I hope so.

(The full TORn article is here.)



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 29 2013, 6:16pm)


sycorax82
Rohan

Sep 29 2013, 7:39pm

Post #18 of 32 (1112 views)
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That letter header has a nice depiction of Smaug, which we've seen before [In reply to] Can't Post

That drawing of Smaug tallies up with other official shots we have seen of him, or parts of him, so we can guess this is basically what he will look like in DoS (except red instead of gold).


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 29 2013, 8:07pm

Post #19 of 32 (1063 views)
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I had not seen that before [In reply to] Can't Post

That's some serious major spoilers. Nice to see that at least a version of the iconic line is included. I think I am okay with how it is changed.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


malickfan
Gondor


Sep 29 2013, 8:27pm

Post #20 of 32 (1037 views)
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So am I (!) [In reply to] Can't Post

(Yes I actually had something posistive to say for once...) Pleased the general gist of the sentence is in (though of course I'd have preffered it to stay unchanged) and I'm glad Thorin dies asking for forgiveness (I've been really worried that Jackson and co would go all out to give him a 100% heroic death after reconcillating with Bilbo), I quite like the change from food and cheer to 'home' it's more approriate for the Quest of Erebor vibe the trilogy is going for.

As this is merely the first line of Thorin in this scene I wonder if they will reference the rest of the sentence? moving the following to the end of the exchange:


Quote

"Farewell Good thief" he said "I go now to the halls of waiting to sit beside my fathers until the world is renewed. Since I leave now all gold and silver, and go where it is of little worth, I wish to part in friendship..."

"..There is more in you of good than you know, chld of the kindly west..."

This is perhaps, talking purses (obviously) and Riddles in the dark excluded my fave scene in the book, though I always found the way it was phrased to be the wrong way round-the first sentence should have been at the end, IMO just reads a bit better.

Anyway...can we expect 'child of the kindly west' or the 'halls of waiting' to make it into the film? The average moviegoer won't get the reference to the halls, but it could be a good metaphor for death, whilst I'm fairly sure that child will be changed to hobbit (if the sentence makes it in) (Bilbo is hardly a child in relation to the much younger in the film Thorin) I see no reason why kindly west couldn't be used.

I'm rambling as usual, but any thoughts?

I don't have much to say.



dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 29 2013, 10:08pm

Post #21 of 32 (1034 views)
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Don't you think 'first line'..... [In reply to] Can't Post

...rather implies that he will say more? I hope it does, and I'd say there's a good chance that at least part of whatever else he says will come from the book. It's such an important scene, and I'm sure they realise that - as they did with the 'Good morning' exchange.


Elessar
Valinor


Sep 29 2013, 10:32pm

Post #22 of 32 (960 views)
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Emotion [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure the death and how he shows everyone handling it will be done superbly. I also am sure I will be a mess in the theater as I watch it each and every time.



malickfan
Gondor


Sep 29 2013, 10:53pm

Post #23 of 32 (987 views)
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Yes, it certainly implies he may say more... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I'm not holding my breath, I'm sure Jackson and co think tweaking it slighty or replacing it entirely could be more cinematic (and I wouldn't be surprised if this was yet another callback to LOTR, tweaking Boromir's 'My Brother my king' line to 'My burglar my friend' etc), and given the explanation for the eagles was a very important scene that has yet to turn up, my hopes aren't high-even as part of a longer speech by Thorin I do admit that lines from the book may come across as awkward or anticlimatic after a bloody hour long battle. I guess it all rests in the delivery of the speech by Armitage and how his death plays out.

I don't have much to say.



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 30 2013, 12:43am

Post #24 of 32 (993 views)
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What an amazingly lovely gesture. [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing else to contribute - just very touched by the letter and the sentiments.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Bumpypotato
Bree

Sep 30 2013, 3:31am

Post #25 of 32 (921 views)
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Sweet [In reply to] Can't Post

That's so sweet Blush


In Reply To
I remembered reading about Samantha's visit to the set and her meeting several of the actors, and having a wonderful time there! She uses the tag "elvenbutterflies".

So I googled and found the letter:
*Link removed,the site no longer exists*

WARNING: VERY MAJOR SPOILERS THEREIN. (I love the stationery he used!)

The scene was filmed the day he received her letter to him - she'd written letters to all the cast - but I don't know if that was the same day as her visit.



(This post was edited by dernwyn on May 31 2014, 10:53am)

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