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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The Hobbits should have shot Gandalf at first sight!
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Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Sep 25 2013, 11:21pm

Post #1 of 34 (572 views)
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The Hobbits should have shot Gandalf at first sight! Can't Post

At the first page of the Hobbit even before the Wizard had a chance to blow Smoke-rings before Bilbo. Or at least expelled him from the Shire before he had a chance to talk to anyone! This is a bit tongue in cheek naturally, but let's just see how this argument goes! Bilbo would never have gone on the journey to Erebor. The One Ring would never have been found by him. So, Sauron would not have noticed the Hobbits and they could have continued to have lived quietly. Neither would Saruman have ever had any interest in the Shire. So, the Hobbit would have lived unnoticed by anyone for ever more.


squire
Valinor


Sep 25 2013, 11:34pm

Post #2 of 34 (354 views)
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‘What, just in time to meet Bilbo?’ said Frodo. ‘Wouldn’t an Orc have suited it better?’ [In reply to] Can't Post

     ‘It is no laughing matter,’ said Gandalf. ‘Not for you. It was the strangest event in the whole history of the Ring so far: Bilbo’s arrival just at that time, and putting his hand on it, blindly, in the dark.
‘There was more than one power at work, Frodo. The Ring was trying to get back to its master. It had slipped from Isildur’s hand and betrayed him; then when a chance came it caught poor Déagol, and he was murdered; and after that Gollum, and it had devoured him. It could make no further use of him: he was too small and mean; and as long as it stayed with him he would never leave his deep pool again. So now, when its master was awake once more and sending out his dark thought from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum. Only to be picked up by the most unlikely person imaginable: Bilbo from the Shire!
‘Behind that there was something else at work, beyond any design of the Ring-maker. I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was “meant”to find the Ring, and “not” by its maker. In which case you also were “meant”to have it. And that maybe an encouraging thought.’ (LotR, I.2)

This passage is Tolkien's response to your obvious suggestion that a lot of trouble could have been avoided had Bilbo never found Gollum's lost ring in the depths of the goblin mines of the Misty Mountains. Clearly, the author asserts that the Ring would have been found sooner or later, once its Master was awake again; and the odds of it being found by someone who would succumb to it, and thus come to Sauron's attention and under Sauron's power, were very high.
I know it seems silly, but I guess we should be very glad that the hobbits did not shoot Gandalf at sight when he returned to Hobbiton to recruit Bilbo, after so many years away!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 25 2013, 11:45pm

Post #3 of 34 (336 views)
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Well, I suppose things might have been ok... [In reply to] Can't Post

... until Sauron reached "Under the Misty Mountains" on his to-do list of Places To Search For The Ring. And he'd be thorough.

Or until Gollum was caught by a goblin because the Ring had slipped from his finger at the critical moment.

Remember, the Ring wants to get back to Sauron, and as Gandalf said, in "The Shadow of the Past", Gollum wasn't furthering its agenda much by lurking down there in the dark ad infinitum. "So now, when its master was awake once more and sending his dark thoughts out from Mirkwood, it abandoned Gollum"...

A goblin wouldn't be much good to the Ring in him- (or her-) self, but might start a chain of the Ring passing (no doubt with the usual quota of murders and treacheries) from hand to hand amongst the goblin and orc tribes under the Mountains and thence out into the light, perhaps when an orc chieftain was killed by a Man during a night raid on the Woodmen's villages. Or it could even have ended up on the hand of the Balrog, which would have been - interesting - to say the least.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 25 2013, 11:47pm

Post #4 of 34 (322 views)
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Snap! [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems we were both composing a post on the same lines simultaneously!


CuriousG
Valinor


Sep 26 2013, 12:49pm

Post #5 of 34 (300 views)
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Wizard wipe out [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron didn't even need the Ring to conquer MEarth. He was doing a good job of beating down Gondor without it, and he conquered Dale and did serious damage to Lorien. The continent would have fallen to him eventually, including the Shire. The Ring would have been a plus to him, and would have exposed Lorien and Rivendell, but it wasn't necessary.

But I appreciate your sentiment. We watched the animated version of The Hobbit in my college Tolkien class, and someone blurted out when Bilbo found the Ring in the tunnel, "For the love of God, don't touch it!!" Oh, those historical what-ifs.


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Sep 26 2013, 2:44pm

Post #6 of 34 (306 views)
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as pointed out by the other well-informed Tolkenites... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron would have found the Ring, not that he necessarily needed to win, but even in winning, he would have found it. And in that scenario, The Shire would have fell and it would have fell much worse than it did in the Scouring. Sauron's rule and the slavery that would have come would have lasted for much longer and would have been much worse than that Saruman.

Not all those who wander are lost


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 2:54pm

Post #7 of 34 (291 views)
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Oh dear--first wings, and now fingers (with rings) on Balrogs... [In reply to] Can't Post

What's next?!? SlyEvilWink

Couldn't resist stirring the pot! Angelic But imagining the Balrog with that kind of power is very interesting indeed! I wonder if it had the kind of intelligence required to set up an organized rival faction to Sauron...


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again."
--G. K. Chesterton



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2013, 8:03pm

Post #8 of 34 (259 views)
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Bells on the giant fuzzy slippers? // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What's next?!? SlyEvilWink




In all seriousness, I agree with the above folks (Squire, NaVedui, CG and Ranger) in that had Bilbo not been coaxed into the adventure, things would have gone a lot worse for ME.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 26 2013, 8:03pm)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 8:41pm

Post #9 of 34 (238 views)
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With its hair in curlers? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again."
--G. K. Chesterton



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2013, 9:23pm

Post #10 of 34 (248 views)
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..and ratty bathrobe? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sensing a theme: Balrogs are very cranky when woken up too early.

(Something in here about needing a *lot* of beauty sleep?)

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Sep 26 2013, 11:09pm

Post #11 of 34 (240 views)
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From the free world's point of view maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

But from the point of view of the Hobbits, might they not have lived on untouched and unnoticed? And quite frankly I would like to know what the bounders were doing letting in someone as suspicious as Gandalf without stopping and questioning him at least.


CuriousG
Valinor


Sep 26 2013, 11:40pm

Post #12 of 34 (235 views)
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Maybe he bribed them with free fireworks? [In reply to] Can't Post

But seriously, good question. And how did Lotho get all those ruffians into the Shire without the Bounders challenging them?


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2013, 11:46pm

Post #13 of 34 (232 views)
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It was tea time? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But seriously, good question. And how did Lotho get all those ruffians into the Shire without the Bounders challenging them?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 26 2013, 11:46pm

Post #14 of 34 (237 views)
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I doubt they would have gone on unnoticed for long, sadly. // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But from the point of view of the Hobbits, might they not have lived on untouched and unnoticed? And quite frankly I would like to know what the bounders were doing letting in someone as suspicious as Gandalf without stopping and questioning him at least.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








sador
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 6:06am

Post #15 of 34 (220 views)
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For one thing, [In reply to] Can't Post

it wouln't have gotten any publicity, but remained a pet crank of an Oxford don, which no publisher would touch with a long pole.


In Reply To


had Bilbo not been coaxed into the adventure, things would have gone a lot worse for ME.





Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 3:07pm

Post #16 of 34 (199 views)
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How very true Sador! // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
it wouln't have gotten any publicity, but remained a pet crank of an Oxford don, which no publisher would touch with a long pole.


In Reply To


had Bilbo not been coaxed into the adventure, things would have gone a lot worse for ME.




Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 27 2013, 4:41pm

Post #17 of 34 (203 views)
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A cat but no Bombadil. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf would have gone back to Bree to find a burglar, and so LOTR would be about Bob, his cat, and his best friend Nob taking the ring to Mordor, along with fellow Bree hobbits Willie Banks and Whatsisname Underhill.

Since they'd be starting from Bree, no Old Forest, and NO BOMBADIL!!!

Again, no Bombadil. Good or bad, take that as you will, but IMHO the Fellowship definitely needed a cat.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


CuriousG
Valinor


Sep 27 2013, 5:17pm

Post #18 of 34 (195 views)
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They had Bill the pony [In reply to] Can't Post

How many extra pets do you want to saddle them down with? Or are you thinking of extra pets as "emergency rations in case of starvation"?


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 27 2013, 5:43pm

Post #19 of 34 (205 views)
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A cat is not a pony. [In reply to] Can't Post

(See http://9gag.com/gag/99.)


In Reply To
How many extra pets do you want to saddle them down with?


Cats aren't pets, they're supervisors.



In Reply To
Or are you thinking of extra pets as "emergency rations in case of starvation"?


No moreso than extra hobbits as "emergency ringbearers in case of mangulation".

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair,
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today,
I wish he would just fly away.


CuriousG
Valinor


Sep 27 2013, 8:35pm

Post #20 of 34 (178 views)
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Yes, it was suspicious [In reply to] Can't Post

that Gandalf told Frodo to take along a few friends. They were spares or backups for the probability that Frodo would get killed or eaten along the way. That should have been his first clue that he'd signed up for the wrong quest.


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 27 2013, 8:43pm

Post #21 of 34 (170 views)
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"We must take the Pass of Donner....*cough* No wait CARADHRAS! yes that's it.." //." [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
that Gandalf told Frodo to take along a few friends. They were spares or backups for the probability that Frodo would get killed or eaten along the way. That should have been his first clue that he'd signed up for the wrong quest.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Sep 27 2013, 11:33pm

Post #22 of 34 (166 views)
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Maybe the conversation was something like [In reply to] Can't Post

Bounder: Excuse me, what is your business in the Shire?
Gandalf: Oh, nothing much, I'm just a family friend.
Bounder: Oh, yes, you look a bit suspicious to me over 9ft tall and aren't you the one that caused a few Hobbits to disappear in rather suspicious circumstances?
Gandalf: Oh, but now I'm just hear to show a few fireworks!
Bounder: I'm sorry you're going to have to do better than that, there are no firework parties booked.
Gandalf: Well all right, I'm off to meet Mr. Bilbo Baggins.
Bounder: Mr. Baggins, a very respectable gentle-hobbit, but why would you be bothering him, not out for a loan are you?
Gandalf: No, no, just a little adventure to the east, cough,
Bounder: a dangerous one?
Gandalf: Maybe, there might be some Goblins involved. And Trolls. And possible a large forest with giant-spiders. Oh, and the small matter of a large fire-breathing dragon we have no plans to deal with and very possibly he will end up dead. Or very rich. But probably dead.
Bounder: Sorry, that sounds very odd to me, no entry!


(This post was edited by Hamfast Gamgee on Sep 27 2013, 11:40pm)


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Sep 27 2013, 11:36pm

Post #23 of 34 (161 views)
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Indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

And another thought which has sprung to my mind is would Frodo have so happily and unquestionably departed onto the mission to destroy the Ring had he known that he would have been stabbed, had a spear thrust into his ribs, been stung, had a long and tiring quest, had to endure the guidance of a psychotic and have one of his fingers bitten off?


dreamflower
Lorien

Sep 28 2013, 10:12pm

Post #24 of 34 (144 views)
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Was Narya involved? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've often wondered if Gandalf used Narya to wake up the Tookishness in Bilbo and Frodo. Just a little tiny spark...


RosieBaggins
Rivendell


Sep 28 2013, 10:54pm

Post #25 of 34 (163 views)
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Intersting idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I do have the feeling that no matter what, they Saron would have noticed the hobbits anyway, especially when he got to the "Check under the Misty Mountains" part of his To Do list. Eventually, everyone everywhere would have fallen.

My progress so far on my walk to Rivendell
I have traveled 71 miles
I have passed Buckleberry Ferry.
It is 2 miles to the next landmark.
I have 387 miles until I reach Rivendell.

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