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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
The perfect quote yet again

Terazed
Bree

Sep 28 2013, 6:32am


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The perfect quote yet again [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Here is the quote I mentioned above, that ties the ideas together : JRRT writes in 1958: "Though it is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the theme of Death. (Not that there is any original 'message' in that: most of human art & thought is similarly preoccupied.) But certainly Death is not the enemy! I said, or meant to say, that the 'message' was the hideous peril of confusing true 'immortality' with limitless serial longevity. Freedom from Time, and clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy, and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation is different: towards a faint melancholy, burdened with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time." (#208, 1958)


You found the perfect quote to complement mine again.


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So is the inverse here, as *That Guy* ( Wink )suggests in the quote above and JRRT does as well, that the way to true love for and joy of life is to let go of the marking of Time? The fear of Time and the passing of existence is what coverts life (mortal or Immortal) into mere marking of days and yearning for ghosts of what was?


Yes, I would say just as love and power are opposites, love and time are opposites as well. The loss of love leads to the fear of time which in turn leads to a craving for power (for mortals at least). For immortals it might just lead to weltschmerz (world-weariness or more literally world-pain). Of course those three rings are powerful rings as well, are they not?


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I agree with your point about Aragorn choosing his death: and it reflects the 'unfallen man' per JRRT. So there is the best in humanity, the unfallen example to follow: having lived fully, not marking time until the end nor making a cultus of the dead and gone, Aragorn embraces his end and. The absolute expression of Faith? Whereas the Ringwraiths - fallen - represent the ultimate failure of faith?


Love vs Power. Love allowed Aragorn to not fear death. Love allowed him to have faith and freed him from time. The Ringwraiths wanted power because they were afraid of death. They mark time and are incapable of love.


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So in Elves, expressing their Eru-given skills in subcreation and subsequent change their statement of 'faith'? And the attempt to arrest change the (*cough* the Three) their failure - in defying Fate (if we define that as the inevitable change that will occur with Elves behaving as Elves should) and Eru's plan?


The elves are prone to loose love over an eternity of existence and develop weltschmerz. Their art certainly is capable of freeing them from time through love of nature. When that love fades over time their art changes as their weltschmerz sets in and they try to stop time rather then free themselves from it. I wonder if mortality allows humans to love more deeply (as in Wagner's Ring) and therefor increases their faith over what the elves are capable of. The fate of the elves is tragic. In the end they will never be reunited with the source of love whereas humans can. Theirs is a reflected love.


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Arwen - we had discussed how she might have sought the shelter of the nuomenal-state of post War Lorien in order to be in touch with Aragorn (outside of Time). From the authorial sense, maybe Arwen's choice for mortality is that letting go of Time, and of 'limitless serial longevity.' Which sounds like what she would feel had she stayed Immortal but lost Aragorn.


Perhaps Arwen exchanged reflected love (in art and nature) for true love when she met Aragorn. True love is what gave her the gift of mortality and allowed her to free herself from time even after the death of Aragorn. As I talked about with the love-death, love allows one freedom from illusion (wahn), which is the equivalent of piercing the veil of Maya, to be outside of time. The love-death of course also allowed Tristan and Isolde to merge souls after death ("Tristan you, I Isolde, no longer Tristan./ You Isolde, Tristan I, no longer Isolde!").

It is late so I might not be making any sense at all. The concept is rather hard to put into words at the best of times which is why I have to use so many quotes that may appear irrelevant but after being read closely convey the idea.

Subject User Time
Letter #131 Discussion: Of Elves and Men Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:32pm
    Of Elves and Men: Doom and Falls Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:33pm
        "Doom" was the drumbeat by the Moria orcs CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 22 2013, 9:57pm
            No satisfaction... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 11:56pm
            Feanor's life coach - LOL! Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 23 2013, 2:23am
                I'm picturing a Talk to the Hand... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:14pm
                    Wow Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 25 2013, 3:05am
                        Astronomy in MEarth CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 8:55pm
                            Interesting CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:13pm
        God is love or love is God Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 23 2013, 4:40am
            A diamond (ring) is a girl's best friend CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 23 2013, 12:39pm
                The sacred and the ordinary Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 24 2013, 12:37am
                    Aragorn and Christian message Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:08pm
            More great philosophical connections Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 23 2013, 7:04pm
                Too busy for a proper reply... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 23 2013, 11:15pm
                    In light of the Romantic philosophy... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 3:52pm
        There seems to be a point about faith in here (but I can't work out what it is) noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 24 2013, 9:00pm
            Faith then and now Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 2:06am
            I've thought that since 1st read CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 1:22pm
                Great comparison CG! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 5:30pm
            The concept of "heaven" Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 25 2013, 10:34pm
                Cool: bring on the dolphins! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:38pm
                What was the question? Meneldor Send a private message to Meneldor Sep 26 2013, 4:19am
    Of Elves and Men: Fading Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 6:38pm
        What is 'fading'? Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 24 2013, 2:40am
            Musings on fading Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 4:03am
                Thoughts of a faded elf noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 8:44am
                    Eternal old age? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 1:19pm
                        Old age is a risk factor, but not the whole thing noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 1:51pm
                        I agree with you here CG elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 Sep 25 2013, 9:22pm
                            Galadriel staying busy Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
                    Weariness and political action Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 5:29pm
                        You kinda wonder what happens when Elrond and Galadriel step off the boat at the other end. And now the elves organize… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Sep 25 2013, 8:29pm
            Fading and glowing CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 25 2013, 9:04pm
                You must go through lots of bleach just to get those ice cream stains out. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:45pm
                *DISREGARDING* the laundry red-herring this time CG Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 4:39pm
        Dimming the music Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 24 2013, 1:59pm
            And Men come into the equation... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 24 2013, 4:03pm
                Wait, is this like that cat thing? Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 26 2013, 12:04am
                    Cats in boxes?! What's next? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 12:18am
                        Because I have permission - a joke Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 26 2013, 1:53am
                            (*hysterical laughing interlude*) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 26 2013, 1:56am
                            *adds more nerdsnorts* Haw! dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Sep 27 2013, 10:20am
                            Nice one!// Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 27 2013, 2:27pm
                            Choke, Splutter, Heee! // Ethel Duath Send a private message to Ethel Duath Sep 28 2013, 12:48am
                                Makes me think we need a Nerdsnort section in the Tolkienia Times. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:50am
                                    :D and of course the Pun Pages.// Ethel Duath Send a private message to Ethel Duath Sep 28 2013, 12:58am
                            Bwahahaha! Roheryn Send a private message to Roheryn Sep 28 2013, 11:07am
                                (*wasn't that great!?!?*) // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:02pm
            Interesting post Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 24 2013, 8:23pm
                Is the sadness inevitable do you think? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 4:30am
                    The long defeat - inevitable sadness Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 27 2013, 1:16pm
                        I have to agree on its emotional influence, even though he doesn't want the allegory stamp Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:00pm
                    I suppose that if everyone were immortal Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 27 2013, 1:44pm
                        I think that the change might have been the greater factor in their discontent... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 2:13pm
                            That's a good what-if CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 5:28pm
                                But then you have authorial dicta... Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 6:20pm
                                    More good points...(and questions...) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:15pm
                                    Elvish civil war! Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 29 2013, 1:00am
                                I rambled on in response to Rem above... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 7:29pm
                                    Ha! Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 7:35pm
                                        (*bows*) Thank you Rem! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
                                    Is Valinor just one of the Three? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 8:50pm
                                        Or inverse... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 8:58pm
                                            I think the Three are based on Valinor. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
                                                Yes - that show you named last week. "When Machines fall on Mortals." Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
                                                Yes Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:34pm
                            The biggest change being a discontent factor: the coming of Men? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 6:34pm
                            I think the elves might have stayed put if Lightfoot Send a private message to Lightfoot Sep 29 2013, 12:50am
                                The Moriquendi as Men's teachers... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 29 2013, 1:24am
                        Very possible...I want to address it in one answer (see response below to Rem)..// Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 6:21pm
            'The Makropulos Affair' On dimming the music Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 24 2013, 11:59pm
        Another thought on 'fading' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 8:08pm
            They were shorter too. Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 27 2013, 8:38pm
                All jealous of Thorin clearly. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 8:46pm
                (*ahem*) Grown up answer that I owe you. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 3:04am
            Of stabbing and fading CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 8:48pm
                Immortality: Satisfaction NOT guarenteed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:08pm
                    All this and NO Customer Service hotlines. Or Unions. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:13pm
                Yup - thoughts on Morgul-blades Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:11pm
                    The fea of Elves and of Men Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:17pm
                        I *tend* (donning tinfoil pants, just in case) to think... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:23pm
                            The problem with magic rings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:27pm
                                Rings in general Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:36pm
                            How to catch a fea Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 9:45pm
                                (*wiping tear of laughter*) at the idea of Fea-Mart Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 10:29pm
                                    'Unfinished Business' Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 27 2013, 10:46pm
                                        You clearly have some unique insights here Rem. Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:46am
                    I really can't answer with a horde staring me down. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 27 2013, 9:18pm
                        Throw in Immortal Thorin and sign me up too. I'm up for that party. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:29pm
                        YOU said the RR wasn't for sissies. Just saying. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 2:51am
            The fading as fate: tied with subcreation? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 27 2013, 9:05pm
                Two quotes. Natural and Unnatural fading Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 27 2013, 10:39pm
                    Immortality vs mere existence Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 12:39am
                        The perfect quote yet again Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 6:32am
                            I've always wanted to say.. Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 28 2013, 12:49pm
                                Thanks. Some of the problems involved. Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 4:01pm
                                    I have to second Rem's appreciation Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:24pm
                            The quotes are perfect though Dame Ioreth Send a private message to Dame Ioreth Sep 28 2013, 3:57pm
                                Bucket lists Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 4:33pm
                            Ties in to a very important question Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 28 2013, 5:22pm
                                The God-King: What about Neitzsche? Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 28 2013, 7:57pm
                                    Another great tie in Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 29 2013, 2:12am
                                        Religious truth and the enlightenment Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 29 2013, 4:43am
                                            Another great addition Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 30 2013, 12:36am
    Easy? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Sep 22 2013, 9:21pm
        (*gets out hammer and nails*) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 22 2013, 11:32pm
    Children of the Day, Children of the Night Terazed Send a private message to Terazed Sep 25 2013, 11:08pm
        You are never boring Terazed Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Sep 25 2013, 11:29pm

 
 
 

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