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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Geeky observation of mine, and kudos to the actors for sticking to canon when PJ did not :D
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Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 5:47am

Post #1 of 27 (1513 views)
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Geeky observation of mine, and kudos to the actors for sticking to canon when PJ did not :D Can't Post

You can tell he is the youngest, because, whether or not PJ&co decided Ori was, the actors (or at least most of them) read the book, and it was very obvious that they knew Kili is the real youngest Smile

When the Great Goblin points to Ori, and says, "Start with the youngest!" And Thorin says, "Wait!" and steps forward.....

ONLY Dori and Nori stand between Ori to protect him! And it makes sense-he is their younger brother, and the GG pointed to him.

The rest of the company, however, surrounded not Ori, but rather Kili Cool

In this screencap:

http://screencapped.net/movie/lotr/displayimage.php?album=154&pid=500516#top_display_media


You can clearly see that most of the dwarves have surrounded Kili, NOT Ori (they are practically glued to Kili), and in the front, you see Bofur standing slightly in front of him. The one who finishes off the "surround" is Thorin-directly in front of his nephew, not the threatened member of the company.

This tells me that the cast, regardless of the possible change in canon PJ&co made with regards to Ori being the "youngest", knows that Tolkien himself writes Kili to be the youngest as per his birth year in the appendices (being 5 years younger than his brother, Fili) though in the novel itself Thorin says that "Fili is the youngest and has the best eyesight"-The Hobbit

But, then again, if the stone giants scene is any indication....we all know that Thorin is rather talented at mixing his nephews up Tongue

So, this supports my theory that the GG is simply.....just an idiot Cool


Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


emre43
Lorien

Sep 26 2013, 6:15am

Post #2 of 27 (677 views)
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The fact that PJ has the licene to Tolkien's work, does that not mean what he writes is also canonical? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Sep 26 2013, 6:18am

Post #3 of 27 (635 views)
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Very nice screens [In reply to] Can't Post

I was never watching this scene so closely but now it make sense. Jackson did quite a lot of changes already so it wouldn't surprise me if he decide that Ori will be the youngest dwarf and because of that camera shows him right after Great Goblin said "Start with the youngest!"

But we can interpret this scene yet in another way. We can see that Ori and Kili are standing right to each other on 1:09 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-msLmiSXzxg and when Great Goblin points his finger to the youngest dwarf he can be implying on Kili and only the camera shows us the wrong dwarf. This can also be the answer why the rest of the company surrounded Kili and not Ori because I believe that Jackson as director would otherwise told them to react otherwise despite their knowledge of the book.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 6:19am

Post #4 of 27 (667 views)
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some of the canon vs non-canon debates don't bother me [In reply to] Can't Post

This one does, simply because it is very important to the story, and those who have read the book will know why....

As to my reference to the word "canon" I mean things that Tolkien himself wrote, not the adaptation script that PJ&co are working on for the movies Smile

I have found that the use of the word "canon" on this forum is generally assumed to mean Tolkien's works, not the works of those chosen to adapt the professor's stories into other media. But I apologize if I was unclear Smile

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 26 2013, 6:20am

Post #5 of 27 (658 views)
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No...and yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

There is movie canon, and book canon. They have many points of similarity, but they are not interchangeable. PJ is creating movie canon, but for many (most?) people that is simply an alternate universe to Tolkien's Book Canon, which is the "real world". And you know how alternate universes are; they're fun to explore, but weirdly wrong in some ways too. Wink

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 26 2013, 7:11am

Post #6 of 27 (650 views)
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I'm not really sure it comes across like that when you watch the scene. [In reply to] Can't Post

See here.

There's actually very little movement in the Company when the Great Goblin says "Start with the youngest!" They just crowd around behind Thorin.

(And even if they were crowding around Kili, that would've been part of the film makers decision, rather than actor impulse).

Smile



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Sep 26 2013, 7:12am)


morro91
Bree

Sep 26 2013, 8:11am

Post #7 of 27 (615 views)
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Is it idiotic? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

So, this supports my theory that the GG is simply.....just an idiot Cool



I ask, is it really an idiotic thing to do to mix up the ages. I mean, if I gave you 13 people and told you to pick the youngest, you could probably pick a few candidates that might be the youngest. Is it so idiotic that, whether Kili or Ori is the youngest, that he picked the wrong one. It would be idotic to pic Dwalin for instance, but whether picking Kili or Ori, irrespective of who exactly is the youngest, is no so idiotic.

In The Hobbit Chronicles, it is explicitly said that Ori is the youngest. I also think "kudos to the actors for sticking to canon when PJ did not" is more coincidence on the actors behalf, and nothing intentional. So I disagree with that. I also have no problem with PJ changing Ori as the youngest, it really doesn't matter that much.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 11:02am

Post #8 of 27 (541 views)
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It was the Great Goblin who did not follow canon... [In reply to] Can't Post

...because, as everyone knows, he's a loose canon.

*Sorry for the bad pun-- couldn't help myself Wink

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 11:35am

Post #9 of 27 (603 views)
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I interpreted the scene this way: [In reply to] Can't Post

It was always about Thorin exhibiting leadership and courage by being the first to face whatever torture the Great Goblin has in mind.

(Although I must say, I love that these actors are such professionals that they don't stop acting when the camera isn't focused on them. Heart)

The GG picked "the youngest" to threaten first, because presumably that Dwarf would be the most vulnerable. I think Ori just looked the most vulnerable, and so the GG pointed at him. He wouldn't have any way of knowing who really is the youngest. But even if the GG had threatened to start with "the fat one" or "the one with the goofy hat," Thorin's actions would have been the same--and I think that's the main takeaway from that scene.

Unless, of course, you see it this way. Wink


"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again."
--G. K. Chesterton



LordotRings93
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 1:21pm

Post #10 of 27 (482 views)
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Ori is not the youngest [In reply to] Can't Post

The GG doesn't even point to him. I've watched it numerous times, and his finger points to either Fili or Kili, the camera just shows Ori's reaction, I guess. And I think PJ stated (or some official movie guide did) that Kili was the youngest.

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."


burgahobbit
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 1:27pm

Post #11 of 27 (463 views)
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Nice one [In reply to] Can't Post

Oakentoons are great!

But yes, its hard to say. It does seem like Thorin is stepping in front of Kili, so perhaps PJ does mean for Kili to be the youngest while Ori is presumed to be by the Great Goblin as Cirashala pointed out. On the other hand, Thorin could just be stepping up to the front of the crowd to make it known that, as you pointed out, he wanted to be the first to suffer the pains. (Thorin is really cool in that regard, all throughout the movie! I somehow missed this act of nobility though...Crazy nice spot!)

I think the latter is what PJ had in mind but I'm still going to pretend that Fili and Kili are the youngest dwarves. Ori just looks older than them.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 26 2013, 1:39pm

Post #12 of 27 (457 views)
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No. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The fact that PJ has the license to Tolkien's work, does that not mean what he writes is also canonical?



To the books? No. Especially when the script is in disagreement with Tolkien's published text. The film-continuity is a thing unto itself.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


marillaraina
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 1:47pm

Post #13 of 27 (450 views)
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a subject [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, Kili didn't look that vulnerable(I was so proud of how he handled himself during that scene - what with the death glares and those looks of haughty disgust when the goblins were manhandling him during the search:)), whereas Ori did look a bit quaking. I'm just going to assume the GG was an idiot and Kili is still the youngest.

In Reply To
It was always about Thorin exhibiting leadership and courage by being the first to face whatever torture the Great Goblin has in mind.

(Although I must say, I love that these actors are such professionals that they don't stop acting when the camera isn't focused on them. Heart)

The GG picked "the youngest" to threaten first, because presumably that Dwarf would be the most vulnerable. I think Ori just looked the most vulnerable, and so the GG pointed at him. He wouldn't have any way of knowing who really is the youngest. But even if the GG had threatened to start with "the fat one" or "the one with the goofy hat," Thorin's actions would have been the same--and I think that's the main takeaway from that scene.

Unless, of course, you see it this way. Wink



Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 26 2013, 2:06pm

Post #14 of 27 (437 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Movie scenes have to work on several levels. So here we see that Fili is the youngest of the Dwarves, that Ori is the youngest of three brothers extremely loyal to each other, and that Thorin is the epitome of leadership and courage.

Good screenwriting.

******************************************
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Sometime hours and hours hence:
In The Green Dragon two ales could buy
And drank the one less filling I
And that has made all the difference.
- The Ale Less Filling, by Robert Frostymug


marillaraina
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 4:35pm

Post #15 of 27 (376 views)
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a subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Movie scenes have to work on several levels. So here we see that Fili is the youngest of the Dwarves, that Ori is the youngest of three brothers extremely loyal to each other, and that Thorin is the epitome of leadership and courage.

Good screenwriting.


It's Kili, not Fili.


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 26 2013, 5:45pm

Post #16 of 27 (324 views)
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Thanks for the correction! [In reply to] Can't Post

marillaraina 2
Darkstone 0

******************************************
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Sometime hours and hours hence:
In The Green Dragon two ales could buy
And drank the one less filling I
And that has made all the difference.
- The Ale Less Filling, by Robert Frostymug


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 5:48pm

Post #17 of 27 (329 views)
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maybe idiotic isn't the right word [In reply to] Can't Post

But rather ignorant might be Cool

Considering that in terms of beards Kili would obviously be the youngest (as Ori's beard is long enough to braid), and one would think a goblin would know this.

But then again, Ori is shorter than Kili (in fact, I think Kili is what....the third tallest in the company?) so that might have influenced it.

It could also be supposed that the company instinctively crowded around those who were the younger members of the company, not just THE youngest, but those who could respectively be called "lads" in relation to the rest of the "old guys" ie the next generation

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 5:49pm

Post #18 of 27 (326 views)
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LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

I loved that one! Sly

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 26 2013, 5:55pm

Post #19 of 27 (318 views)
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me too [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't think his expression during the manhandling (goblinhandling?) part was obvious disgust, though his eyes definitely imparted that. He actually kept his expression fairly blank and indifferent-which was extremely mature-to not show reaction to the "torture". That was a good indication of his warrior training-to not divulge anything, and to not let them see that they are "getting" to you.

I was so proud Laugh

And his glare matching Thorin's behind him-the sincerest form of flattery is imitation Smile

All in all, Ori was DEFINITELY not the trained warrior-by his obvious wear-your-emotion-on-your-sleeve face, whereas Kili, though inexperienced, was definitely trained well.

Lovely character moment!

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


marillaraina
Rohan


Sep 26 2013, 7:34pm

Post #20 of 27 (281 views)
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same subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I didn't think his expression during the manhandling (goblinhandling?) part was obvious disgust, though his eyes definitely imparted that. He actually kept his expression fairly blank and indifferent-which was extremely mature-to not show reaction to the "torture". That was a good indication of his warrior training-to not divulge anything, and to not let them see that they are "getting" to you.

I was so proud Laugh

And his glare matching Thorin's behind him-the sincerest form of flattery is imitation Smile

All in all, Ori was DEFINITELY not the trained warrior-by his obvious wear-your-emotion-on-your-sleeve face, whereas Kili, though inexperienced, was definitely trained well.

Lovely character moment!


Actually I agree, I just couldn't think of a good way to describe his expression, I just thought it was very indicative of his station but subtle. :) And like I said, me too, strange to say about a fictional character but I did feel rather proud of him. He did his Durin ancestors proud. :)


Eye's on Guard
Lorien


Sep 26 2013, 10:43pm

Post #21 of 27 (236 views)
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About the beards... [In reply to] Can't Post

Your post reminded me of a couple of suggested explanations of the relative lengths and types of beards for Ori, Fili, and Kili. Here they are:

Childhood beard?

Beard patience? (sections on Kili, Fili, and Ori)

There are more scattered throughout the responses to the original post, which are quite interesting overall.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 1:18am

Post #22 of 27 (208 views)
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I saw a suggested explanation somewhere [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the GG was operating on 'preschool logic' - i.e., the tallest person is the oldest. With that mode of thinking, if Ori looks shorter and squishier than Kili, he must be younger. So that's how I explain the scene to myself, as I would prefer for Kili to be the youngest. And, yes, Kili handles himself marvelously here.

What I really want to know is how *Fili* reacted to all this. You see so little of him in comparison to Kili! Crazy Unsure How did he react to Kili being threatened in this manner? As it is, he's stuck at the back of the group (behind Balin and/or Dwalin, I believe) and you can barely see him. Here's to hoping that DoS contains 2x the amount of Fili. Wink

...Oh, and is it just me, or has anyone had a hard time now not calling him 'the Goblin King' instead of 'the Great Goblin'? I'm pretty sure LEGO and the other figurines call him 'the Goblin King', and it's getting very confusing... Crazy

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 27 2013, 1:28am

Post #23 of 27 (194 views)
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yes!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I call him the Goblin King more than the Great Goblin (I notice I have to keep editing my posts as I type, realizing this is my default....oops....

Yeah, unless whatever orc spy managed to get quite a lot of info, I seriously doubt the GG could possibly know most of the company, and thus any reference to age would be purely a guess on his part.

And Ori looks most definitely to be the most fearful and vulnerable here!

I do hope there is more Fili in DOS too-I think that part of the problem with AUJ was quite simply the shift in actors causing them to rely on either old Katczinsky footage, or body doubles until O'Gorman had finished his dwarf bootcamp. Plus, considering that there were 13 dwarves completely surrounded by hundreds of Goblins, and since Fili isn't the tallest in the company, it could stand to reason that he was just either behind a goblin or behind a taller dwarf....

But I am more inclined to think that there may have been a body double there...

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Sep 27 2013, 1:57am

Post #24 of 27 (198 views)
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I've wondered that, too [In reply to] Can't Post

about a possible body double in Goblintown. I even watched the whole stinkin' sequence *frame-by-frame* to try and figure it out. No luck. Am fairly sure there will be more Goblintown in the extended, as there are scenes of it in the trailers that never made it into the movie (e.g., where some Dwarves pull up Bifur - I think it's Bifur - with either Oin's stick or Nori's stick through one of the walkways). I also could never figure out when, where, and how the Company got separated into two or more groups. It must have happned multiple times, though. But given the chaotic layout of Goblintown, it's understandable that they'd get separated.

Even so, shouldn't Goblintown have been shot long after they brought in Dean O'Gorman? Speaking of which, I'm fairly sure that's Kazinsky opposite Thorin at the fireplace in Bag End during 'Misty Mountains'. It's a pity he's left in shadow, as I really love the symbolism of Thorin's heir being right across from him at this important moment. Also, isn't he walking in front of Kili as the camera moves into the room? Gah, must go rewatch AUJ.

Oh, and I did watch the Trollshaws frame-by-frame. Right about when Bilbo gets nabbed by the trolls and the Dwarves cluster together in confusion, off to one side of the screen you can see someone - fairly clearly, as long as you're doing it frame-by-frame - who looks like *neither* Kazinsky or O'Gorman. My brother and I spent quite a while going, "Who in Arda is this guy?" before finally deciding that it must be *someone* as Fili, going by the moustache braids. Am I just seeing things, or has somebody else noticed this, as well? Crazy

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Sep 27 2013, 2:47am

Post #25 of 27 (192 views)
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Yes, I agree with MORE Fili! [In reply to] Can't Post




Quote


about a possible body double in Goblintown. I even watched the whole stinkin' sequence *frame-by-frame* to try and figure it out. No luck.





There are definitely the small body doubles in Goblintown for all the Dwarves at several points. However, in this shot, this looks like a stunt double for Fili.





Quote

I also could never figure out when, where, and how the Company got separated into two or more groups.




Me neither, after watching it dozens of times!





Quote

Speaking of which, I'm fairly sure that's Kazinsky opposite Thorin at the fireplace in Bag End during 'Misty Mountains'.





Yep, it's Kazinsky!





In Reply To

Oh, and I did watch the Trollshaws frame-by-frame. Right about when Bilbo gets nabbed by the trolls and the Dwarves cluster together in confusion, off to one side of the screen you can see someone - fairly clearly, as long as you're doing it frame-by-frame - who looks like *neither* Kazinsky or O'Gorman



Hmm...the mystery guy on the right side? No idea! This shot from a few frames earlier is definitely O'Gorman, though.

I hope PJ & Co. make up for lost time for Fili is DOS! WinkHeart





"Our perennial spiritual and psychological task is to look at things familiar until they become unfamiliar again."
--G. K. Chesterton


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