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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Sauron and Melkor were tainted and bound by corruption, but not diminished in force. Their diminishing was the result

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 1:33am


Views: 233
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Sauron and Melkor were tainted and bound by corruption, but not diminished in force. Their diminishing was the result [In reply to] Can't Post

(Also applauds Salmacis and JW for their lore based efforts, as an aside not related to this particular post, for Michelle you also do a very good job of sticking to the lore, even when we have minor philosophical differences lol) of them expending too much force in subjegating and altering others. Melkor was diminished because so much of his essential force was locked up in his servants or in the material of Arda itself, as Sauron's later became dissiminated into his servants and into his great Ring.

The Balrogs, though connaturally less powerful spirits than Sauron (Powerful Maiar, Demons of Might, Mightitest of Melkor's other servants, but not so mighty as Sauron himself), never dispensed their might in this way. The Balrog of Moria, for example, made no baubles, and did not infuse those around him with his will. He ruled the denizens of Moria through the power of his terror, not through an active exertion of his constant will upon theirs.

In Reply To
Everyone who is contributing to this thread knows about the hierarchy of spirit of Tolkien's created world, we all I am sure agree on that . The Maia come to middle earth and indeed a certain Vala and by their actions and interaction with the incarnate mortal world they either maintained their inherent spiritual power and returned to the gardens of Lorien or took sail to Eressea or they fell from their high purpose and were diminished and never came back banished into the void. For all powers from before the world M E is perilous Sauron/Saruman the Balrog possibly the blue wizards they were diminished by their corruption. They may start of well but you are thinking only from the whence the came not where they end up. There is the spiritual power they come with but they all were capable of being affected by the deceits of the world into which they came and their spiritual power was affected by the journey they made.

Passing in the opposite direction were great Men, Elves and the halflings Earendil, Tuor Beren, Frodo, Bilbo and arguably Galadriel and Elrond who were transformed by their experiences and journeys. Galadriel more than any others story arc was constantly evolving even in the final months of Tolkiens life and the movement was always to draw her higher and higher. Each revealed action showed her as an exceptional Elven Woman arguably the most gifted co equivalent with Feanor and certainly wiser.

This concern over upping the anti on Galadriel is in my view quite overdone. Galadriel was crucial and involved in Gandalf being healed and clothed after he was found by the Ainur's Eagles which she sent to look for him. She threw down the walls of Dol Gulder that suggests exceptional power. it is not beyond the realms of possibility for PJ and Co to harmonise their version even if with the LOTR they did make errors. Maybe we could see what they come up with before doing the hand ringing?

So Tolkien whom I have quoted said she was the most powerful Elf at the time of the Hobbit and Pippa to a live audience used the word being could this not be a slip of the tongue. Maybe someone from torn could ask her before we condemn her and cast her out in to the night.

As for feminine energy in 2013 the books were criticised in 1952 for being populated by a lot of boys masquerading as men. Probably not a fair criticism but there is some truth there which can be adjusted and dealt with by making middle earth come alive in a more real way by bringing the lens in on both men and woman. Men do not exist in a vacuum and neither do woman.




In Reply To
...there IS a heirarchy in Middle-earth. Sure, Galadriel could keep most evil at bay due to Nenya, but ONLY while the One Ring existed. And she's a mighty elf, no doubt, but she's just an elf. A similar power resided in Rivendell - Elrond's stronghold was protected by the power of Vilya.

Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the Blue Wizards existed before the world began, and indeed even had a hand in its creation. Sorry, but Galadriel is not on that same level in the "heirarchy" of beings. She is not "divine" as the Ainur are.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 22 2013, 1:41am)

Subject User Time
Why it is important that Galadriel (whom I love) not be the Glinda of The Hobbit, nor relate to The Wizards as AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 20 2013, 1:21am
    Well said AinurOlorin Ziggy Stardust Send a private message to Ziggy Stardust Sep 20 2013, 1:57am
        Thank You, Agreed, and indeed. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 20 2013, 2:10am
    Agreed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 20 2013, 3:19am
    We are on the same mind here Old Pilgrim Send a private message to Old Pilgrim Sep 20 2013, 5:58am
        Going mostly OT...but who actually is the most powerful person in M.E at the time of The Hobbit? malickfan Send a private message to malickfan Sep 20 2013, 6:56pm
            I would say Sauron, who was one of the mightiest of the Maiar... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 7:10pm
                Agreed Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 20 2013, 7:13pm
                    Yeah, I'd agree with that... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 7:37pm
                You're probably right...... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 7:24pm
                    Yeah, it is altogether meaningless... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 7:36pm
                        I can't see that happening.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 8:09pm
                            Well it's pretty obvious that some people are worried... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 8:49pm
                                Yes, they are..... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 10:12pm
                                    Not really sure what to tell you dormouse... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 11:13pm
                                    Well, they thought of having the Staff of the Chief Istari Messenger of Eru and The Valar shattered by Sauron's human-Wraith AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 21 2013, 12:36am
                                        This is what it all comes back to really, isn't it? dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 8:56am
                                            Well, lets just have Sauron overrun Lothlorien, "dragon fire and savage swords in Eriador, Night in Rivendell" AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 21 2013, 12:45pm
                                                Do I? Crumbs, I wish you took mine!!!! dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 1:43pm
                                                    Tolkien is so confusing...or is he, really? Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 21 2013, 4:36pm
                                                        Galadriel's Power JWPlatt Sep 21 2013, 4:47pm
                                                            Gandalf is emasculated and subservient if Galadriel is more powerful that he is??? Noria Send a private message to Noria Sep 21 2013, 5:07pm
                                                                Not necessarily... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 5:32pm
                                                                Istari are lesser Ainur, spirits existing before Creation JWPlatt Sep 22 2013, 12:08am
                                                                    I know that... Noria Send a private message to Noria Sep 22 2013, 12:46pm
                                                                        The Path Of Relativism In Adaptations JWPlatt Sep 22 2013, 3:23pm
                                                                        That is a PROBLEM AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 6:18pm
                                                        The fact of the matter is... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 5:24pm
                                                            This is starting to sound like 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad" ;-) dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 5:45pm
                                                                Not really talking about the same thing... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 6:32pm
                                                                    What makes you think..... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 6:51pm
                                                                        Once again... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 7:05pm
                                                            It's all a bit convoluted Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 21 2013, 5:50pm
                                                                Again, we're talking about display of force here... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 6:40pm
                                                            Heirarchy Yes but when clothed in the deceits of middle earth No. Michelle Johnston Sep 21 2013, 9:46pm
                                                                Slip of the tongue... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 11:40pm
                                                                    Ainur, Is it the ring is it Galadriel and Context will be everything Michelle Johnston Sep 22 2013, 6:23am
                                                                        Galadriel's stature Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 22 2013, 6:34pm
                                                                            Unfinished Tales Michelle Johnston Sep 22 2013, 7:34pm
                                                                                A clarification Michelle Johnston Sep 22 2013, 8:01pm
                                                                                    Harmony Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 23 2013, 2:32pm
                                                                                You may point to this, yes, but... Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 23 2013, 2:02pm
                                                                                    Subjective Responce To Variants Michelle Johnston Sep 24 2013, 2:54pm
                                                                                        Ah okay, no worries Elthir Send a private message to Elthir Sep 24 2013, 5:17pm
                                                                Sauron and Melkor were tainted and bound by corruption, but not diminished in force. Their diminishing was the result AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 1:33am
                                                        I don't see Elrond as more powerful than Galadriel. Luthien, mayhap Dior, not Elrond. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 1:04am
                                                    Glorfindel's prophecy... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 6:54pm
                                                        But in Middle Earth he was a man, effectively..... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 7:22pm
                                                            Mods up just about everything dormouse has said on this thread// Calmandcloudless Send a private message to Calmandcloudless Sep 21 2013, 8:24pm
                                                                Thanks, Calmandcloudless // dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 22 2013, 7:33am
                                                            Come on dormouse... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 11:19pm
                                                            One other thing... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 21 2013, 11:59pm
                                                            He was not a real human. Real humans don't wander undeteriorated by time for two thousand years. He was clothed in real matter/flesh AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 12:52am
                                                                I rest my case.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 22 2013, 7:34am
                                                                    You can't rest yet Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 22 2013, 1:36pm
                                                                        Not sure who you are referring to... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 22 2013, 2:30pm
                                                                            Not you Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 22 2013, 5:19pm
                                                                                Is it? As an individual Power, or as a ruler and Power. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 6:40pm
                                                                                    But I think you've missed Voronwe's point, AO... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 22 2013, 7:03pm
                                                                                        You can speak for me Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 22 2013, 9:28pm
                                                                                            I agree 100% // dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 22 2013, 10:17pm
                                                                                        I think it is you who have missed my point. I was not attempting to rigidly assign AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 3:56am
                                                                                    So, What Did Tolkien Actually Mean By This? Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 23 2013, 12:12am
                                                                                        Because there were no known Balrogs to come there. Lol. Its a moot statement. He doesn't mention Melkor AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 11:12am
                                                                                            Heirs of Finwe... Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Sep 23 2013, 1:33pm
                                                                                                Without absolute certainty, I would say this. . . there comes a point at which enchantments AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 2:27pm
                                                                                                    That makes sense... Eleniel Send a private message to Eleniel Sep 23 2013, 2:36pm
                                                                                                        I don't think it inconsistent. I don't think it something that the Wizards, in Sauron's absence, could not AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 2:45pm
                                                                                Are These Two The Only Two High Elves That Slew Balrogs (Mair)? Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 22 2013, 6:57pm
                                                                                    In the revised legendarium, yes, just those two. Even before revisions, no Balrog had ever been AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 3:53am
                                                                                *mods up* dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Sep 22 2013, 7:18pm
                                                                                    Chess JWPlatt Sep 22 2013, 7:29pm
                                                                                        But which is the most powerful piece? dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Sep 23 2013, 2:06am
                                                                                Argument Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 23 2013, 11:03am
                                                                                    Exactly this. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 11:36am
                                                                                    For the sake of argument? dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 23 2013, 1:15pm
                                                                                        Fair enough to the first point, and duly noted. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 1:32pm
                                                                                            The prophecy referred specifically to the hand of man.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 23 2013, 2:18pm
                                                                                                I don't recall saying he was invulnerable. He did AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 23 2013, 2:40pm
                                                                                                Men JWPlatt Sep 24 2013, 3:39am
                                                                                                    Funnily enough...... // dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 24 2013, 7:15am
                                                                                        Note the "perhaps"... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 23 2013, 2:16pm
                                                                                        My advice, for what it is worth Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 23 2013, 2:21pm
                                                                                            Yes, you're right... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 23 2013, 3:19pm
                                                                                                Indeed I do understand! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 23 2013, 4:21pm
                                                                                                    So am I dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 23 2013, 4:45pm
                                                                                                        Absolutely Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 23 2013, 5:42pm
                                                                                                            Really enjoy reading your thoughts here. cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Sep 23 2013, 7:11pm
                                                                                                                Thanks! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 23 2013, 7:23pm
                                                                                                                    The most powerful being ion Middle Earth is..... Drumroll please...... Jettorex Send a private message to Jettorex Sep 23 2013, 7:46pm
                                                                                                                        Not without vital help of Gollum and Sam ... DanielLB Send a private message to DanielLB Sep 23 2013, 8:05pm
                                                                                                                            Daniel! Thou hast returned! lol Good to see ya AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 24 2013, 12:44am
                                                                                                        We have a level of agreement here. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 24 2013, 12:09am
                                                                                                    Ambiguity Rembrethil Send a private message to Rembrethil Sep 23 2013, 11:54pm
                                                                                                    I would agree with that second paragraph. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 24 2013, 12:06am
                                                                                                    It is the utter LACK of ambiguity in her statement that really bothered and vexes me, Voronwe. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 24 2013, 12:43am
                                                                                                        For heaven's sake, it was an off-hand comment Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 24 2013, 3:03am
                                                                                                            The problem is that Ms. Boyens made the statement in a very public forum, and she is one of the key voices of authority on the films AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 24 2013, 4:10am
                                                                                                                chuckles// Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 24 2013, 4:49am
                                                                                                            Boyens Statement Was Considered JWPlatt Sep 24 2013, 4:17am
                                                                                                            Well said, Voronwe Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Sep 25 2013, 3:26am
                                                                                                                To clarify Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Sep 25 2013, 3:42am
                                                                                                                    To clarify Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Sep 25 2013, 4:02am
                                                                                                                To be very clear, and speaking only for myself, of course, my issues and consternation AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 25 2013, 4:47am
                                                                                                                Well said Altaira and Voronwe Noria Send a private message to Noria Sep 25 2013, 12:18pm
                                                                                                                    I will also add that I have always been among those who supported and lauded Galadriel being in the film AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 25 2013, 8:56pm
                                                                                                                Fantastic post! cats16 Send a private message to cats16 Sep 25 2013, 3:39pm
                                                                                                                    Not every objection to something involving a female character is sexist. I have seen sexist and racist remarks AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 25 2013, 8:45pm
                                                                                                                        No one has said Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Sep 25 2013, 9:19pm
                                                                                                                            So What did Philippa based her comment on? Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 25 2013, 10:03pm
                                                                                                                                Hers was a definitive statement. Regarding my statement, I AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2013, 12:17am
                                                                                                                            I understand and appreciate your point about how things can come across. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 25 2013, 11:38pm
                                                                                                                Duck Test Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Sep 25 2013, 4:03pm
                                                                                        Well Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Sep 25 2013, 5:17pm
                                                                                            *chuckles*.... // dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 25 2013, 5:20pm
                                                                                            Maybe you should re-read what I actually said... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 25 2013, 11:09pm
                                                                                                One motive only.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 26 2013, 7:58am
                                                                                                    Clarification... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 26 2013, 11:54am
                                                                                                    Hmmm... Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 26 2013, 11:59am
                                                                                                        Well, several things, first, it isn't just that the Balrog was from another Age, which AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 26 2013, 12:52pm
                                                                                                            This debate Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Sep 26 2013, 1:13pm
                                                                                                                Dear, Elessar, AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 27 2013, 10:56pm
                                                                                                                    Thanks AO :-) Elessar Send a private message to Elessar Sep 27 2013, 11:23pm
                                                                                                    As to this... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 26 2013, 12:43pm
                                                                                                Son, that's the problem. Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Sep 26 2013, 1:19pm
                                                                                                    LOL Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 26 2013, 1:49pm
                                                                                                        Good for you! / Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Sep 26 2013, 1:53pm
                                                                                                            THANKS!! Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 26 2013, 1:57pm
                                                                                                                Group hug! Altaira Send a private message to Altaira Sep 26 2013, 4:16pm
                                                                                                                    Erm JWPlatt Sep 27 2013, 2:22pm
                                                                                                                        Lol. Well, if winding down it is, let me, on a personal if slightly egoist note, thank All AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 27 2013, 11:03pm
                                                                                                                            Twas a great thread..... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 27 2013, 11:26pm
                                                                                                                    Awww. Hug happily received and reciprocated. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 27 2013, 10:59pm
                                                    No, doormouse, it doesn't make a difference. The fact that he acknowledges them all AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 22 2013, 12:37am
                            The nub of the storyline anticipation Michelle Johnston Sep 21 2013, 12:14pm
                        Bingo AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 20 2013, 11:31pm
                    Meaning JWPlatt Sep 21 2013, 12:41am
                        Oh - are we discussing Philippa Boyens? dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 21 2013, 10:12am
                            Great myth making refracts human frailty Michelle Johnston Sep 21 2013, 11:14am
                            I agree about no absolutes, but not in the way I think you mean it. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 21 2013, 1:00pm
                            Dormouse, Michelle, that is how I see Tolkien Noria Send a private message to Noria Sep 21 2013, 1:02pm
                            Boyens JWPlatt Sep 21 2013, 4:29pm
                            Right, Middle-earth isn't Azeroth Darkstone Send a private message to Darkstone Sep 25 2013, 4:59pm
                Hmm...I seem to have forgotten about those guys-all the obvious candiates malickfan Send a private message to malickfan Sep 20 2013, 7:26pm
                Hmmm Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 20 2013, 8:00pm
                    Mostly true, and she was very powerful. Was Bombadil overlooked. In any event, even at 8 AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 21 2013, 12:30am
            The Elven Rings Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 20 2013, 11:41pm
            The nature of "power" Na Vedui Send a private message to Na Vedui Sep 24 2013, 1:21am
    Er..... who's Glinda? // dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 11:19am
        Dmouse...Glinda was played by Billy Burke was.... Bombadil Send a private message to Bombadil Sep 20 2013, 11:58am
            Thank'ee! dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 12:47pm
                I am amazed Kangi Ska Send a private message to Kangi Ska Sep 20 2013, 3:27pm
                    I have seen it, honest.... dormouse Send a private message to dormouse Sep 20 2013, 3:30pm
    As goofy as this film version of Radagast is... Salmacis81 Send a private message to Salmacis81 Sep 20 2013, 2:58pm
        Ugh. Amended. lol And I hope so too, VERY much, concerning Ms. Boyens. AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 20 2013, 11:26pm
    What you say is true, but most likely... Girdle of Melian Send a private message to Girdle of Melian Sep 20 2013, 6:56pm
        She was in the Tutelage of a Maiar, but she was not herself one. The Istari, on the other hand, are Maiar AinurOlorin Send a private message to AinurOlorin Sep 21 2013, 12:17am

 
 
 

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