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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why it is important that Galadriel (whom I love) not be the Glinda of The Hobbit, nor relate to The Wizards as
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Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 6:54pm

Post #51 of 157 (483 views)
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Glorfindel's prophecy... [In reply to] Can't Post


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Gandalf wouldn't have won the confrontation. He knew the prophecy. It was going to take a girl and a hobbit to do that.


The prophecy said nothing about a girl and a hobbit. The prophecy was "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall." Nothing was said about a hobbit or a woman, and Gandalf was certainly no man himself. So you cannot say with certainty that Gandalf would not have won the confrontation.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 7:05pm

Post #52 of 157 (483 views)
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Once again... [In reply to] Can't Post

The worry is that since Ms. Boyens erroneously believes Galadriel to be the "most powerful being in Middle-earth", they will turn Galadriel into a wrecking crew, succeeding where the Istari cannot. On top of that, there is precedent of Jackson significantly weakening Gandalf in an effort to ramp up the tension. Plus, there has been news of a Gandalf dummy being carried from the fray by Galadriel. So yes, this is a concern for some of us dormouse. Not everyone has absolute faith in Jackson, Boyens, and Walsh. And if you think these threads are pointless, then why not comment on news or speculation you deem worthy? I generally don't get involved in arguments I feel are pointless.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 21 2013, 7:14pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 7:22pm

Post #53 of 157 (504 views)
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But in Middle Earth he was a man, effectively..... [In reply to] Can't Post

That's clear in the essay in the Istari, where Tolkien explains that that the Istari were sent to Middle Earth,

'clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die...'

There's also Tolkien's sketch of the sending of the Istari:

'For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge and confusing them with fears, cares and wearinesses coming from the flesh.'

So although you're absolutely right that the prophecy didn't specify who or what would do the deed, 'not by the hand of man' rules Gandalf out, since he was at that point in a real human, man's body. That's what he believed, anyway: 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall.'

I suppose I'm coming at this from two points really. The first is that I really dislike the way Philippa Boyens is attacked in some of these threads for things she hasn't even done. And blamed for anything anyone doesn't like.

The second is that for me Gandalf's real strength lies in his acceptance of vulnerability. For sure, in Arda he was an immortal, involved in the creation - all the things you and AO have said. But all of that was in Arda. For the sake of Elves and men he accepts the limitations of a human body, with all that entails - reluctantly, according to Tolkien. He doesn't go into any conflict saying 'Hey, I'm a Maia, I'm going to win.' He doesn't know if he's going to win or not, because that's in the terms of the task Manwe set him - but he knows he will suffer. For me that has infinitely more meaning than any league table of 'who's the strongest', which seem to me to diminish him. Humility, vulnerability - that's his real power.


Calmandcloudless
Lorien


Sep 21 2013, 8:24pm

Post #54 of 157 (452 views)
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Mods up just about everything dormouse has said on this thread// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 21 2013, 9:46pm

Post #55 of 157 (463 views)
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Heirarchy Yes but when clothed in the deceits of middle earth No. [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone who is contributing to this thread knows about the hierarchy of spirit of Tolkien's created world, we all I am sure agree on that . The Maia come to middle earth and indeed a certain Vala and by their actions and interaction with the incarnate mortal world they either maintained their inherent spiritual power and returned to the gardens of Lorien or took sail to Eressea or they fell from their high purpose and were diminished and never came back banished into the void. For all powers from before the world M E is perilous Sauron/Saruman the Balrog possibly the blue wizards they were diminished by their corruption. They may start of well but you are thinking only from the whence the came not where they end up. There is the spiritual power they come with but they all were capable of being affected by the deceits of the world into which they came and their spiritual power was affected by the journey they made.

Passing in the opposite direction were great Men, Elves and the halflings Earendil, Tuor Beren, Frodo, Bilbo and arguably Galadriel and Elrond who were transformed by their experiences and journeys. Galadriel more than any others story arc was constantly evolving even in the final months of Tolkiens life and the movement was always to draw her higher and higher. Each revealed action showed her as an exceptional Elven Woman arguably the most gifted co equivalent with Feanor and certainly wiser.

This concern over upping the anti on Galadriel is in my view quite overdone. Galadriel was crucial and involved in Gandalf being healed and clothed after he was found by the Ainur's Eagles which she sent to look for him. She threw down the walls of Dol Gulder that suggests exceptional power. it is not beyond the realms of possibility for PJ and Co to harmonise their version even if with the LOTR they did make errors. Maybe we could see what they come up with before doing the hand ringing?

So Tolkien whom I have quoted said she was the most powerful Elf at the time of the Hobbit and Pippa to a live audience used the word being could this not be a slip of the tongue. Maybe someone from torn could ask her before we condemn her and cast her out in to the night.

As for feminine energy in 2013 the books were criticised in 1952 for being populated by a lot of boys masquerading as men. Probably not a fair criticism but there is some truth there which can be adjusted and dealt with by making middle earth come alive in a more real way by bringing the lens in on both men and woman. Men do not exist in a vacuum and neither do woman.




In Reply To
...there IS a heirarchy in Middle-earth. Sure, Galadriel could keep most evil at bay due to Nenya, but ONLY while the One Ring existed. And she's a mighty elf, no doubt, but she's just an elf. A similar power resided in Rivendell - Elrond's stronghold was protected by the power of Vilya.

Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the Blue Wizards existed before the world began, and indeed even had a hand in its creation. Sorry, but Galadriel is not on that same level in the "heirarchy" of beings. She is not "divine" as the Ainur are.


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 21 2013, 9:55pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 11:19pm

Post #56 of 157 (439 views)
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Come on dormouse... [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf and Saruman both were capable of many feats that were CLEARLY beyond what any man could accomplish in Tolkiien's Middle-earth. Saruman with his voice and ability to create phantoms of himself (among other things), Gandalf with his fight against the Balrog, his face-off against the Nazgul on Weathertop, and his drawing off of Faramir's Nazgul pursuers with his staff (among other things). I don't see how anyone who has read the books could argue that Gandalf was effectively a man during his time on Middle-earth.


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So although you're absolutely right that the prophecy didn't specify who or what would do the deed, 'not by the hand of man' rules Gandalf out, since he was at that point in a real human, man's body. That's what he believed, anyway: 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall.'


Gandalf was clothed in a mortal body, but that does not mean that he was a man, or that he viewed himself as a man, or that his powers were restricted to only what a mortal man would be capable of.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 11:40pm

Post #57 of 157 (442 views)
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Slip of the tongue... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's possible that is the case. But Ms. Boyens' comment is not quite the only reason some are concerned. There are other things that I and others have mentioned in previous comments. In any case, like I've said already, Gandalf being made to look like a wimp next to Galadriel isn't even my biggest concern about the forthcoming movies, it's like 4th or 5th on the list. I'm just siding with AinurOlorin's point and explaining why I feel his concern is merited. It's not the popular opinion around here, but its a valid one.

Anyway, the thread is about the dynamic between Gandalf and Galadriel, so the argument over some of the evil Maiar being diminished due to their corruption would not apply to Gandalf. Even still, I do not put Galadriel on the same level as any of the Ainur, even corrupted ones like Sauron, Saruman, or Durin's Bane. The Ainur are a different kind of being from elves or men, even the weakest among them.

As for them being vulnerable to the "deceits of the world", sure they were. So was Galadriel, who had dwelt in Middle-earth FAR longer than any of the Istari, and whose power over Lothlorien was due to her ring, and not to her own inherent abilities (and remember, Gandalf also was in possession of a ring).


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 11:59pm

Post #58 of 157 (412 views)
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One other thing... [In reply to] Can't Post


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He doesn't go into any conflict saying 'Hey, I'm a Maia, I'm going to win.'


NO ONE is thinking of this in terms of an rpg. What is being said is that Gandalf should have more at his disposal than Galadriel. Gandalf should be able to handle anything that Galadriel can, and then some. No?


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 22 2013, 12:08am

Post #59 of 157 (411 views)
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Istari are lesser Ainur, spirits existing before Creation [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

As I said above, to anyone who has seen the movies but never read the books, the Istari are just old men with magic, maybe immortal because of that magic, but nothing like elevated beings of a celestial origin.


Oh, really? Perhaps you would enjoy reading the source material to understand the Istari are just that. You would otherwise be doing a great disservice to those people. Any point you make is discredited to me until you take that into consideration. It conveniently falls perfectly into Boyens' characterization. But I wonder if it matters to your arguments. Wouldn't you make the same points even if you thought Galdalf were a spirit? Because Olórin, as Mithrandir the Maiar is known in Valinor, is a spirit. I would hope this knowledge would cause you to reconsider your reasoning. I doubt it, but you could surprise me.


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 22 2013, 1:30am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 12:37am

Post #60 of 157 (418 views)
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No, doormouse, it doesn't make a difference. The fact that he acknowledges them all [In reply to] Can't Post

as dangerous, or of having the potential to be dangerous just as does Fangorn/Treebeard ABSOLUTELY does not negate the fact that he clearly states that HE, personally, is more dangerous than any other being they will encounter unless it is Sauron himself. There is no ambiguity there, and nothing in the prior comment, nor anything that follows, alters that.

The nature of powers and degree had already been established, so yes, it was for the sake of tension as Tolkien had already clearly stated something definitive. I will give you that the potential of Sauron's channeled power would be something to consider. IF they had made it more clear that The Witch-King was siphoning off the power of his master for that confrontation, I would have objected less. They did no such thing.

Gandalf's summary of the witch-kings titles and nature is an accurate description. He also described the Nazgul as terrible. The Balrog, a mightier evil than the nine (a full Maiar Demon of Might, as contrasted to the phantoms of men dominated by the will of a greater Maiar) he did not wish to have mentioned by name. Yet the anxiety he shows in the scene with Denethor has everything to do with Frodo and fear for the fate of The Hobbit in Ring, as they are known to have taken the path of Cirith Ungol. "Treachery I fear...". It wasn't boot quaking at the notion of a confrontation with The Chief Nazgul.

You assume alot about the prophecy of Glorfindel (o, Dear Glorfindel, where art thou?). He said, "Not by the hand of a man shall he fall." Well, Gandalf was not, strictly speaking, a man. A male yes, but less human than Eowyn or Merry.

Yet we digress. The issue is not whether or not victory for The Wizard was a given, but whether such as The Witch King would have had the power to shatter the staff of office of the chief emmissary on Earth of Eru and The Valar. And actually, even that is tangential. The issue is that Galadriel of The Noldor should not be depicted as categorically and substantially more powerful in Spiritual and Magical ability than the five Wizards.

Also, I am not in the habit of making threads to knock Ms. Boyens. Some of her work has been great. I am knocking a potential creative choice that takes too much licence. If there is any criticism of her, it is only as a consequence of her being one of the chief potential propenents of those choices.

In Reply To

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Your notion seems to be one of, "whatever they do, it will be appropriate, they wouldn't make any wildly irreverant changes that would upset the cosmological hierarchy of the legendarium," and I am saying, yes they would, they have done it before, and I would rather they not do it again.


1. No. If the purpose of this thread is just knocking Philippa Boyens once again, rather than discussing the nature of power in Middle Earth, then that is emphatically not what I'm saying. So far as I can see, there's only one sensible thing to say about that. I'll happily discuss the changes that have been made in adapting the story WHEN I'VE SEEN ALL THREE FILMS AND KNOW WHAT THOSE CHANGES ARE. And, if possible, when I've heard Philippa Boyens and Peter Jackson explain the thinking behind what they've done. Imagining what they might do and then attacking them for it as though it has already happened is unjust - it's also a terrible waste of energy.

2. Quotations, as it happens, are a very good basis for discussion, particularly if we're thinking about what Tolkien actually said, not what we think he said. The rest of that quotation you give is significant. In context, Gimli is surprised that Gandalf speaks of Fangorn/Treebeard as a friend, because he thought Fangorn was dangerous. Here's the full reply:

''Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous that anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.''

It makes a difference. Gandalf's point is not 'I'm the most powerful'. He's telling Gimli that power doesn't have to be negative and even in your friends, and yourself, there may be power that you don't suspect.

As for the confrontation with the Rider, I'm surprised you dismiss what Tolkien says so easily:

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And Tolkien ONLY left the question open in ROTK for the sake of building tension.

I think Tolkien makes it very clear in the book that Gandalf is vulnerable and knows it. For a reason. This isn't some cheap fantasy where the characters can look up their relative values on a chart and know in advance if they will win or lose. Whatever power Gandalf has of his own nature he most certainly does not have certainty of victory, and nor should we have it as readers. The Lord of the Nazgul may have been a man once, but as he crosses the Pelennor and stands in the gate of the city he has the power of Sauron behind him. Look at the way Gandalf sums him up:

'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'

The power Gandalf faces there is Sauron, channelled through one of his greater servants - and, as I pointed out before, Gandalf wouldn't have won the confrontation. He knew the prophecy. It was going to take a girl and a hobbit to do that.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 12:52am

Post #61 of 157 (387 views)
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He was not a real human. Real humans don't wander undeteriorated by time for two thousand years. He was clothed in real matter/flesh [In reply to] Can't Post

That he could not merely cast off like a garment the way Other Maiar could easily do. He was trapped, essentially, in the material of Arda, The World,as some of the evil Maiar became trapped, but he was no more a human man than Galadriel or Cirdan. Less so, if anything. They came in shape as men, but they were not literally men. Hence real men mistaking them for Elves.

"Men at first believed that they were also men who had acquired arts/powers and lore through long and secret study... and Men perceived that they did not die, but remained the same whilst the fathers and sons of Men passed away. Therefore Men grew to fear them, even when they loved them, and they were held to be of Elven race (with whom they often consorted), yet they were not so." Elves and dwarves are also subject to the weariness and burdens of Earth, yet neither of those peoples are Men.

What were you saying about leaving out significant portions of lore quotations?

And, again, we are not debating what aspects of him you like best. I also love his wisdom, compassion and humility. Those things do not negate the fact that AS Gandalf, he still had great power, literal spiritual and magical power. He was bound many limitations, but he was not literally limited in the way of a human being in arda. He had innate powers that neither an Aragorn nor even a Legolas would ever wield or master. Neither of those beings could have faced a Balrog of Morgoth. "This is a foe beyond any of you, I must hold the narrow way!"That wasn't vain boasting. If the Dwarves had been able to do harm to The Balrog, they would have. In all likelyhood they tried to, as we know they did not immediately abandon Moria after Durin's slaying, but remained until Nain was also hunted down and slain by the Demon. Dain was correct, some other Power did have to come.

The discussion here is not, "what is your favourite quality in Gandalf," nor, "is Gandalf's good intent, vigilance and love more significant than his magic." The discussion is of what powers he had, and how they might compare to those of other Powers in Middle-Earth during the Third Age. The conflations and tangential considerations are not really relevant to that focal discussion.

In Reply To
That's clear in the essay in the Istari, where Tolkien explains that that the Istari were sent to Middle Earth,

'clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die...'

There's also Tolkien's sketch of the sending of the Istari:

'For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge and confusing them with fears, cares and wearinesses coming from the flesh.'

So although you're absolutely right that the prophecy didn't specify who or what would do the deed, 'not by the hand of man' rules Gandalf out, since he was at that point in a real human, man's body. That's what he believed, anyway: 'But our trial of strength is not yet come. And if words spoken of old be true, not by the hand of man shall he fall.'

I suppose I'm coming at this from two points really. The first is that I really dislike the way Philippa Boyens is attacked in some of these threads for things she hasn't even done. And blamed for anything anyone doesn't like.

The second is that for me Gandalf's real strength lies in his acceptance of vulnerability. For sure, in Arda he was an immortal, involved in the creation - all the things you and AO have said. But all of that was in Arda. For the sake of Elves and men he accepts the limitations of a human body, with all that entails - reluctantly, according to Tolkien. He doesn't go into any conflict saying 'Hey, I'm a Maia, I'm going to win.' He doesn't know if he's going to win or not, because that's in the terms of the task Manwe set him - but he knows he will suffer. For me that has infinitely more meaning than any league table of 'who's the strongest', which seem to me to diminish him. Humility, vulnerability - that's his real power.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 22 2013, 12:56am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 1:04am

Post #62 of 157 (383 views)
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I don't see Elrond as more powerful than Galadriel. Luthien, mayhap Dior, not Elrond. [In reply to] Can't Post

And that for their Maiar blood which made them something other than true, categorical Eldar.

I remain convinced, however, that the presence of The Balrog would likely have made a serious difference, and it may well have been part of the essential subconcious purpose of Gandalf going into Moria to clear out that threat. It must be remembered that the balrog is gone by the time the assaults on Lothlorien began. The sorcerous power of THe Balrog cannot be counted out, nor his ancient knowledge, as old as that of Melain even if he was not so mighty a Maiar as she. . . but he did not need to be, for it was not Melain who ruled The Golden Wood, it was a lady of the Noldor, whose people he had often tormented and slain, perhaps whose very kindred he was involved in the slaying of. The Balrogs are, especially in refference to The High-Elves, essentially different and more dangerous than The Nazgul. They are among those "other powers in Middle-Earth, dark Powers old and strong."

With the Balrog removed, no great evil Maiar was known to remain to assail Lothlorien. Sauron, not any of The Nine, would need to come, but he would not have needed the Ring. It must be remembered that the films got that bit wrong. Sauron had a physical presence, as Gollum noted. "Only nine fingers on The Black Hand,". A giant eye of fire was largely metaphorical and psychic projection, and the filmakers kinda ran with it.

In Reply To
"The Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lórien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."

"Three times Lórien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but BESIDES the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for ANY to overcome, unless Sauron had come there HIMSELF. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back"

....I wonder how those who see Elrond as being more powerful than Galadriel will interpret this...pretty specific to me. I am also sure Tolkien probably mentioned somewhere that Gadalf is also the most powerful, some passage. We don't even know what Galadriel even learned from Melian but Lothlorien was not protectected by a Girdle but whatever she did was pretty effective. We can theorize that if the attacking force that attacked Gondor attacked Lorien that the outcome may be different, but again, Tolkien is quite specific and did not say "the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, etc.," and he specifically mentioned that Sauron had to be there himself, not in the shadow but that very much suggests a physical shape, and it will take him to break whatever Galadriel has to dish out...

This for me hardly constitutes no. 8 in power if the author of the book himself stated it specifically. Of course, we can always get into semantics I suppose, which is the beauty of things or we wouldn't have forums...lol


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 1:33am

Post #63 of 157 (386 views)
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Sauron and Melkor were tainted and bound by corruption, but not diminished in force. Their diminishing was the result [In reply to] Can't Post

(Also applauds Salmacis and JW for their lore based efforts, as an aside not related to this particular post, for Michelle you also do a very good job of sticking to the lore, even when we have minor philosophical differences lol) of them expending too much force in subjegating and altering others. Melkor was diminished because so much of his essential force was locked up in his servants or in the material of Arda itself, as Sauron's later became dissiminated into his servants and into his great Ring.

The Balrogs, though connaturally less powerful spirits than Sauron (Powerful Maiar, Demons of Might, Mightitest of Melkor's other servants, but not so mighty as Sauron himself), never dispensed their might in this way. The Balrog of Moria, for example, made no baubles, and did not infuse those around him with his will. He ruled the denizens of Moria through the power of his terror, not through an active exertion of his constant will upon theirs.

In Reply To
Everyone who is contributing to this thread knows about the hierarchy of spirit of Tolkien's created world, we all I am sure agree on that . The Maia come to middle earth and indeed a certain Vala and by their actions and interaction with the incarnate mortal world they either maintained their inherent spiritual power and returned to the gardens of Lorien or took sail to Eressea or they fell from their high purpose and were diminished and never came back banished into the void. For all powers from before the world M E is perilous Sauron/Saruman the Balrog possibly the blue wizards they were diminished by their corruption. They may start of well but you are thinking only from the whence the came not where they end up. There is the spiritual power they come with but they all were capable of being affected by the deceits of the world into which they came and their spiritual power was affected by the journey they made.

Passing in the opposite direction were great Men, Elves and the halflings Earendil, Tuor Beren, Frodo, Bilbo and arguably Galadriel and Elrond who were transformed by their experiences and journeys. Galadriel more than any others story arc was constantly evolving even in the final months of Tolkiens life and the movement was always to draw her higher and higher. Each revealed action showed her as an exceptional Elven Woman arguably the most gifted co equivalent with Feanor and certainly wiser.

This concern over upping the anti on Galadriel is in my view quite overdone. Galadriel was crucial and involved in Gandalf being healed and clothed after he was found by the Ainur's Eagles which she sent to look for him. She threw down the walls of Dol Gulder that suggests exceptional power. it is not beyond the realms of possibility for PJ and Co to harmonise their version even if with the LOTR they did make errors. Maybe we could see what they come up with before doing the hand ringing?

So Tolkien whom I have quoted said she was the most powerful Elf at the time of the Hobbit and Pippa to a live audience used the word being could this not be a slip of the tongue. Maybe someone from torn could ask her before we condemn her and cast her out in to the night.

As for feminine energy in 2013 the books were criticised in 1952 for being populated by a lot of boys masquerading as men. Probably not a fair criticism but there is some truth there which can be adjusted and dealt with by making middle earth come alive in a more real way by bringing the lens in on both men and woman. Men do not exist in a vacuum and neither do woman.




In Reply To
...there IS a heirarchy in Middle-earth. Sure, Galadriel could keep most evil at bay due to Nenya, but ONLY while the One Ring existed. And she's a mighty elf, no doubt, but she's just an elf. A similar power resided in Rivendell - Elrond's stronghold was protected by the power of Vilya.

Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the Blue Wizards existed before the world began, and indeed even had a hand in its creation. Sorry, but Galadriel is not on that same level in the "heirarchy" of beings. She is not "divine" as the Ainur are.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 22 2013, 1:41am)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 22 2013, 6:23am

Post #64 of 157 (378 views)
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Ainur, Is it the ring is it Galadriel and Context will be everything [In reply to] Can't Post

AO and I have a good deal of mutual respect and he knows I would not side against him or for him in a conscious way. Our view of AUJ is much the same its simply that some of the more subtle interactions are received by us in modestly different ways.

This thread made me reach for my kindle yesterday and I was reminded a good deal of how Galadriel was growing all the time in Tolkien's mind. I think he was going down a path which he left unfinished which would have meant that she was not banned at the end of the 1st Age from returning to Aman but that she was handed a responsibility by the Ainur to stay so that at some distant point in the future she would play a defining role in middle earths history. Frodo and the company were meant to go to Lorien, Frodo was meant to offer the ring and in rejecting it she helped bring about the end of great evil rather than perpetuating it. Equally important within days she sent Eagles to look for Gandalf's broken body so that the Ainur could intervene. I digress but the key message I received from my re reading is that the ring had very specific affects on her and her environment but that her great wisdom and determination to remain implacably set against Sauron came from within. She was exceptional before ring and indeed the elven rings enhanced rather than transformed their keepers.

On the question of Dol Gulder and G & G. I can imagine scenarios ( I hate that word) which would take me out of the movie but if Dol Gulder plays out like Moria where he offers himself in a sacrificial way and Galadriel subsequently comes to rescue him AFTER the confrontation it would work. Also for her to offer support, encouragement and light up the dark places would be a highly appropriate extension.


On final observation Cate had 8 days on set I am pleased to hear that she should be used very sparingly to retain the sense of mystery and majesty that she plays displays with such skill. Less is more in this context .



In Reply To
It's possible that is the case. But Ms. Boyens' comment is not quite the only reason some are concerned. There are other things that I and others have mentioned in previous comments. In any case, like I've said already, Gandalf being made to look like a wimp next to Galadriel isn't even my biggest concern about the forthcoming movies, it's like 4th or 5th on the list. I'm just siding with AinurOlorin's point and explaining why I feel his concern is merited. It's not the popular opinion around here, but its a valid one.

Anyway, the thread is about the dynamic between Gandalf and Galadriel, so the argument over some of the evil Maiar being diminished due to their corruption would not apply to Gandalf. Even still, I do not put Galadriel on the same level as any of the Ainur, even corrupted ones like Sauron, Saruman, or Durin's Bane. The Ainur are a different kind of being from elves or men, even the weakest among them.

As for them being vulnerable to the "deceits of the world", sure they were. So was Galadriel, who had dwelt in Middle-earth FAR longer than any of the Istari, and whose power over Lothlorien was due to her ring, and not to her own inherent abilities (and remember, Gandalf also was in possession of a ring).


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 7:33am

Post #65 of 157 (378 views)
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Thanks, Calmandcloudless // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 7:34am

Post #66 of 157 (372 views)
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I rest my case.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Let those who read decide!


Noria
Rohan

Sep 22 2013, 12:46pm

Post #67 of 157 (385 views)
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I know that... [In reply to] Can't Post

because I've read the The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Book of Lost Tales, HOME and the Appendices of LotR. Not everyone has.

But the movieverse is not quite the same as Tolkien's Middle Earth, nor does it need to be for the film maker's purposes.

I'm glad that Salmacis' mother is so perceptive but my anecdotal evidence is that people didn't always get that Gandalf was much more than an old wizard. He comes across as very human, more in the books than the movies.

Perhaps emasculated is not the most appropriate term to use in relation to an asexual being like Gandalf, especially if he's not really a man at all.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 22 2013, 1:36pm

Post #68 of 157 (372 views)
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You can't rest yet [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not the seventh day. Wink

On a more serious note, it is rather amusing to me (in a sad sort of way), after having had the blessing of having the opportunity to talk for hours about Tolkien with some of the most brilliant and knowledgeable scholars of his work, to see some people in this thread put themselves across as ultimate authorities about Tolkien's writings, when their understanding is superficial at best.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 22 2013, 2:30pm

Post #69 of 157 (320 views)
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Not sure who you are referring to... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but I don't see anyone here putting themselves across as any kind of "ultimate authority". We are discussing what we feel would be appropriate for the film, based on our knowledge of the books. If you think someone's understanding of Tolkien's writing is superficial, then you are free to add to the discussion. We know you've written a book, we all know that you know what you're talking about.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 22 2013, 3:23pm

Post #70 of 157 (310 views)
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The Path Of Relativism In Adaptations [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...But the movieverse is not quite the same as Tolkien's Middle Earth, nor does it need to be for the film maker's purposes...


I see. What you are suggesting, and apparently accepting, is that Galadriel truly is the most powerful being on Middle-earth because Boyens says so; the writers have the complete freedom of artistic license to elevate Galadriel at Gandalf's expense or do anything else they choose. If that is the case, yes, these discussions to justify what happens, or should not happen, in the movies are utterly without basis. Along this path lies a slippery slope of successively diluted adaptations which compromise each iteration for the need of plot or agenda until the story is unrecognizable. It's better to be anchored to and honor the source material. Or just make up your own story and give it your own name.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 22 2013, 3:26pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Sep 22 2013, 5:19pm

Post #71 of 157 (305 views)
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Not you [In reply to] Can't Post

But the truth is, a perfectly reasonable argument can be made that Philippa Boyens statement that, at the time of The Hobbit, Galadriel was the most powerful being on Middle-earth, was a fairly accurate one. The Istari were certainly from a "higher order" but they were not simply clothed in the bodies of men, they 'clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned', as Dormouse pointed out elsewhere in this thread. And Gandalf had not yet been "elevated" by Eru at this time, long before he died and was returned as Gandalf the White, the most "dangerous" persona in Middle-earth, other than Sauron. And even Sauron himself, clearly the most powerful being in Middle-earth, was at the time of The Hobbit still regaining his powers. Moreover, while the Ainur are obviously a higher order than any of the children of Eru, Tolkien's work is too vast and subtle to have such a rigid structure that would require that anyone from the higher order was unquestionably more powerful than any in the lower. Otherwise, Melian would never have mated with Thingol. Nor would Gandalf have expressed the level of awe for Feanor's prowess that he does in musing to Pippin about the Palantir. So, while I would not say that I agree with it, PB's rather offhand comment was not the most asinine statement ever made, as some people in this thread have treated it to be.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 6:18pm

Post #72 of 157 (308 views)
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That is a PROBLEM [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the films are supposed to be faithful. The filmmakers know exactly what Gandalf is. To willfully send the message that The Elves are akin to angels while the Wizards are just old magicians would be a sacrilage beyond the ressurection of Azog. Yet I do not believe they are intending to do that. Hence the mention of there being five Wizards, the return of Gandalf, the fact that Gandalf clearly hasn't aged much in more than half a century, not to mention the Towers line "for Three Hundred lives of men I've walked this Earth and now I have no time,".

As to the emasculated. .. not my words, though he is male even if he is no man. Still, I hate it when an adaptation neglects the relevant lore. I hope to see some allusion to the role Durin's Bane played in the expulsion from Moria etc., in this movie series about Durin's heirs, lest his significance in the history of The Dwarves be unknown, and he end up being seen as no more than a random monster who popped in to hassle Gandalf. What Galadriel is is apparent in her depiction, which I LOVE, but she should not be elevated above The Istari. They are more than just a batch of human magicians, and if the filmmakers are to be accurate, its their duty to present it. This kind of miscommuncation, miseducation and misinformation, is at the heart of what I am casting aspersion on, actually.

In Reply To
because I've read the The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Book of Lost Tales, HOME and the Appendices of LotR. Not everyone has.

But the movieverse is not quite the same as Tolkien's Middle Earth, nor does it need to be for the film maker's purposes.

I'm glad that Salmacis' mother is so perceptive but my anecdotal evidence is that people didn't always get that Gandalf was much more than an old wizard. He comes across as very human, more in the books than the movies.

Perhaps emasculated is not the most appropriate term to use in relation to an asexual being like Gandalf, especially if he's not really a man at all.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Elthir
Gondor

Sep 22 2013, 6:34pm

Post #73 of 157 (271 views)
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Galadriel's stature [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
This thread made me reach for my kindle yesterday and I was reminded a good deal of how Galadriel was growing all the time in Tolkien's mind. I think he was going down a path which he left unfinished which would have meant that she was not banned at the end of the 1st Age from returning to Aman but that she was handed a responsibility by the Ainur to stay so that at some distant point in the future she would play a defining role in middle earths history.




Galadriel does seem to gain in stature [externally of course], but I'm not sure, although maybe at the moment I don't recall the text that this is based on, about her necessarily being handed a responsibility by the Ainur however.


And I think this idea might be based on a version [Concerning Galadriel And Celeborn] written before Tolkien introduced Galadriel's ban. In this text, at the end of the First Age Galadriel does not leave Middle-earth due to her love of Celeborn, and 'probably' due to some pride of her own, according to the text. But after Sauron was ousted in Eregion 'she deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered.' Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel And Celeborn

Now granted Tolkien may have brought this notion forward in later texts, but even if so, I'm not sure we can say that that alone necessarily points to some sort of direction from the Valar themselves. I keep in mind that, in this version, Galadriel was co-founder and co-ruler of Eregion and had let Annatar into her realm, while Gil-galad had made the wiser choice. Yes here she doubted his fair seeming, but to me this is problematic as she still seemingly lets him in in any case, and then he cozens the Jewel-smiths.

So perhaps this is why Galadriel later deems it her duty to remain. She ruled Eregion [until being ousted by the Jewel-smiths] and allowed Sauron to meddle with it.

In the much later Shibboleth of Feanor version, Galadriel still joins in the Rebellion against the Valar and rejected their last message, and it was pride that moved her when she rejected the pardon* of the Valar at the end of the First Age.

In the very latest 'adumbrated' account there is no real suggestion [if I recall correctly] of Galadriel being handed a responsibility to stay in Middle-earth. She still desires to leave Aman as she felt confined by her tutelage there, and wanted to excercise her talents in Middle-earth. She falls within the general ban by departing from Aman [if here not as part of Feanor's rebellion], and: 'when they received the permission of the Valar to return they rejected it.'

So in this very late outline, we have this rejection ['they' includes Celeborn here].

_______________
*I'll note however that Tolkien may have forgotten that he had already published that Galadriel had fallen under a special ban, which remained until some time after she rejected the One in the Third Age.

This was published by JRRT in The Road Goes Ever On.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Sep 22 2013, 6:43pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 6:40pm

Post #74 of 157 (296 views)
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Is it? As an individual Power, or as a ruler and Power. [In reply to] Can't Post

If the former, I think that is a very bold categorical. I deally, either the late Professor or his son Christopher could be questioned on the matter, and I would be very curious to hear Christopher Tolkien's thoughts on Galadriel as the mightiest being in Middle-Earth and her relation to The Istari, Tom Bombadil, The Balrog, Sauron etc.

Gandalf was "Saruman as he should have been," which suggests that Saruman was perhaps previously mightiest, aside from Sauron. Bombadil remains an uncertainty.

At best the "whose mightiest" would be very ambigous, and a question I deem Galadriel would not be so bold as to answswer without first "Being Tested" as Gandalf himself was, and as he spoke of. His defeat of a Balrog already elevates his power above many, including the "typical" High Elf. It was a rare and legendary thing for the mightiest of The High-Elves to triumph in battle with a Valarauko, and none of the Elves in question survived.

Feanor's marvellous skill is not in question. Those skills didn't overwhelm Gothmog and his companions, though they accomplished marvellous works (incorporating the light of The Trees in the most famous instance).

As to Thingol, he was far less powerful than Melain. The text explicitly speaks of how her wisdom and power enhanced him and his kingdom. It was the Girdle of Melain, not the girlde of Thingol that guarded Doraith against all foes, "unless one should come with a power greater than that of Melain The Maia." These things you know.

In Reply To
But the truth is, a perfectly reasonable argument can be made that Philippa Boyens statement that, at the time of The Hobbit, Galadriel was the most powerful being on Middle-earth, was a fairly accurate one. The Istari were certainly from a "higher order" but they were not simply clothed in the bodies of men, they 'clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned', as Dormouse pointed out elsewhere in this thread. And Gandalf had not yet been "elevated" by Eru at this time, long before he died and was returned as Gandalf the White, the most "dangerous" persona in Middle-earth, other than Sauron. And even Sauron himself, clearly the most powerful being in Middle-earth, was at the time of The Hobbit still regaining his powers. Moreover, while the Ainur are obviously a higher order than any of the children of Eru, Tolkien's work is too vast and subtle to have such a rigid structure that would require that anyone from the higher order was unquestionably more powerful than any in the lower. Otherwise, Melian would never have mated with Thingol. Nor would Gandalf have expressed the level of awe for Feanor's prowess that he does in musing to Pippin about the Palantir. So, while I would not say that I agree with it, PB's rather offhand comment was not the most asinine statement ever made, as some people in this thread have treated it to be.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Sep 22 2013, 6:57pm

Post #75 of 157 (284 views)
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Are These Two The Only Two High Elves That Slew Balrogs (Mair)? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ecthelion and Glorinfindel? And they did both die as a result of that battle? I can't seem to find the reference.

I know that Feanor fought them, and he lost because they kind of ganged up on him, until his sons fought them off. And were there any Elves that fought a Balrog that did not die? They did mention also that Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor, maybe" but then said she was wiser than him. So Elves, especially high ones, can slay Balrogs (a type of Maiar), so power does have a way of getting around in ME. I mean, after Mair, there's a bit of a gap between Elves and Maiar (so how is this possible)? Why would even Melian bother with Galadriel if she felt she could have not taught her anything other than bread-making? It is true, her army of Elves, along with Celeborn, defended the wood land borders (no walls here...just trees) three times, and only the border was damaged, so aside of the valor of the Elven people, we know that Galadriel played a role, but Tolkien was not specific, but it is clear that she had a direct involvement in it.

Q: Are Balrogs considered a lesser form of Maiar?

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