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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Tolkien writes his own fan fiction? (Gimli gets the boat)

noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2013, 2:51pm

Post #1 of 24 (504 views)
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Tolkien writes his own fan fiction? (Gimli gets the boat) Can't Post

Some of us recently discussed the idea of "cannon" as it might, or might not, be applicable to Tolkien. I dug up a Cory Doctorow quote, about which I've since been thinking. The salient points are:
There's a tendency to regard whatever the original author wrote as "cannon"

But,
we build up a picture of characters in our heads- potentially the author can write something we don't believe about them ("Spock would never say that" in Dototow's example, even though there he is saying it in an official script).

And,
there's a tendency, once you are engaged with a character to want to "noodle around" with him/her: imagine what they do when they are not in the primary story and so on. For example, fond of Thorin, one might write that he is miraculously medivac'ed from the battlefield to an ICU on Long Island, where he recovers thanks to ++very special++ care Smile - a harmless if rather silly project to amuse ones friends, rather than an attempt to fit in with the internal consistencies of Midtle-earth. (Er no, I haven't written that one…)

My post with The full quote is over here, if you want http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=643685#643685

Anyway;

Since that discussion, I've been thinking that maybe it's not only secondary (fanfic) authors who want to noodle around with the characters.

For example, I'm thinking of The LOTR appendix note about Gimli, who we are told gets on the boat to Valinor with Legolas. It doesn't (to me at least) fit with how this boat going west thing is supposed to work. It doesn't seem to be set up in the main text ( unlike Frodos departure, or Legolas' ). I wonder- is this Tolkien, find of his character, slipping him a ticket in a weak moment? (Maybe the expostulation which follows suggests he knows he shouldn't really.)
Or, is this the final punch line in a running gag about Gimli's courtly admiration for Galadriel?
Or…? (Can anyone make sense of this bit ?)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 6:06pm

Post #2 of 24 (324 views)
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Dwarves: ICU saves and sailing West [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

And,
there's a tendency, once you are engaged with a character to want to "noodle around" with him/her: imagine what they do when they are not in the primary story and so on. For example, fond of Thorin, one might write that he is miraculously medivac'ed from the battlefield to an ICU on Long Island, where he recovers thanks to ++very special++ care Smile - a harmless if rather silly project to amuse ones friends, rather than an attempt to fit in with the internal consistencies of Midtle-earth. (Er no, I haven't written that one…)
I like where you are going with this...I would love to read this one if you ever do write it Furincurunir...I can always give you some technical information for support if you need it...SmileLaugh


For example, I'm thinking of The LOTR appendix note about Gimli, who we are told gets on the boat to Valinor with Legolas. It doesn't (to me at least) fit with how this boat going west thing is supposed to work. It doesn't seem to be set up in the main text ( unlike Frodos departure, or Legolas' ). I wonder- is this Tolkien, find of his character, slipping him a ticket in a weak moment? (Maybe the expostulation which follows suggests he knows he shouldn't really.)
Or, is this the final punch line in a running gag about Gimli's courtly admiration for Galadriel?
Or…? (Can anyone make sense of this bit ?)
Just to refresh I read the section in Appendices but also found where JRRT addresses it in Letter # 154. In the Appendices description, what I find interesting is that Legolas himself built the boat for them, and together they set sail. I picture them camped on a riverbank for weeks, with the boat rising slowly from the keel: perhaps Gimli cutting and shaping the wood and Legoals fitting the pieces, talking over the fire at night. It seems very singular, 'renegade' one would say if it broke any laws...not part of a larger sailing nor part of an Elven 'consensus' : just two unique friends, a bit alone as they have been since friendship kindled. And in some way, I feel like that desire of JJRT to have things come full circle, with a certain neatness and exactness (like the question of Elrond and Elros being twins: neat. Exact. Choosing fates from the exact same starting point) is what sends the hero Dwarf to the West. That all three kin - even the adopted one - at some unique point come together. In #154, JRRT says, "But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. This Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel." So is Gimli being the exception that, though unique, neatly ties together all the Children of God?


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Kim
Valinor


Sep 21 2013, 7:20pm

Post #3 of 24 (300 views)
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Thorin's on Long Island? [In reply to] Can't Post

Where precisely might one find him? EvilLaugh


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 7:35pm

Post #4 of 24 (286 views)
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(*hurriedly shuts bedroom door*) Nothing to see here!!!!! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Kim
Valinor


Sep 21 2013, 7:44pm

Post #5 of 24 (280 views)
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Back away from the door slowly [In reply to] Can't Post

and no one gets hurt Evil


elaen32
Gondor


Sep 21 2013, 7:51pm

Post #6 of 24 (296 views)
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Now look what you've done NoWiz! [In reply to] Can't Post

DON'T-GO-PUTTING-IDEAS-INTO-BRETHIL'S-HEAD!!
You know how delicate the inner balance of her mind is where Thorin is concerned.Wink She is supposed to look after sick people in her ICU, not drool on them!Tongue


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 8:02pm

Post #7 of 24 (272 views)
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Good nursing is key. [In reply to] Can't Post

*HOURLY* bathing a necessity post op.

Trust me.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








elaen32
Gondor


Sep 21 2013, 8:26pm

Post #8 of 24 (260 views)
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Yes, but not in a chocolate filled hot tub! [In reply to] Can't Post

How many times do we have to tell you?WinkShocked


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 8:29pm

Post #9 of 24 (250 views)
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But its very therapeutic...!!!!! (puppy dog look) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2013, 8:43pm

Post #10 of 24 (254 views)
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Emergency basoapical de-hauberking [In reply to] Can't Post

Emergency basoapical de-hauberking* is going to need bolt cutters, +and a very steady hand+ before the surgical team can even get started.

Just don't annoy the author here, in case there's a +very regrettable+ mishap.

The line "Aren't you rather big for a dwarf?" Is going to be inescapable.

Seriously though, one could argue that the only difference between Gimli I the boat to Valinor and Thorin in the Air Ambulance to ICU is the amount of noodling going on…
…
…
…or is that a bit unfortunately phrased…?




* not something you get to type all that often

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 8:49pm

Post #11 of 24 (245 views)
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It'll be easy compared to some of the piercings I have had to cut free [In reply to] Can't Post

either pre-op or pre-MRI. Really. People put them in the most amazing places. It boggles the mind at times.

And NO we want to mishaps with those bolt cutters, so please don't break out hearts there NoWiz.

And 'noodling' is just one of those words isn't it? Invites misbehavior.

"Emergency basoapical de-hauberking"*: I think we need a Unit policy on that. I'll get right on it.




*No, not commonly written is it? Though maybe in Meneldor's SCA crew they do that sort of thing all the time...

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 21 2013, 8:50pm)


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2013, 9:09pm

Post #12 of 24 (238 views)
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I forgot - nobody phases a nurse! [In reply to] Can't Post

It's like "nobody tosses a dwarf!"

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 9:21pm

Post #13 of 24 (250 views)
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Back to your OP... [In reply to] Can't Post

and considering my answer more, I absolutely suppose that an affection for Gimli might have also contributed to the sailing. I would hate to discount the purely human connection to the characters that JRRT had, particularly with the Fellowship.

Angelic

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2013, 9:32pm

Post #14 of 24 (247 views)
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Shadowfax gets to go west too, it seems [In reply to] Can't Post

Letter 268, I believe. Is that "noodling " or is it routine to take your horse?

I did by the way really like your description of Legolas & Gimli boatbuilding together. But still trying to stir up debate and controversy :)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 9:54pm

Post #15 of 24 (236 views)
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Debate topics [In reply to] Can't Post

We could debate the difference between 'noodling' and 'canoodling'.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








elaen32
Gondor


Sep 21 2013, 10:19pm

Post #16 of 24 (232 views)
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Easy!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Canoodling is Noodling in a can!CrazyTongue


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



elaen32
Gondor


Sep 21 2013, 10:20pm

Post #17 of 24 (224 views)
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Love it!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 10:48pm

Post #18 of 24 (248 views)
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(hahahaaahaaa!!!!!) [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh that's nice...LaughLaughLaugh

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 22 2013, 7:42am

Post #19 of 24 (200 views)
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I expect so… [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Canoodling is Noodling in a can!CrazyTongue


"Noodling with Canadians" seems much less likely.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 22 2013, 4:17pm

Post #20 of 24 (182 views)
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Is that 'Canuckling' ???? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To


"Noodling with Canadians" seems much less likely.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Sep 22 2013, 4:36pm

Post #21 of 24 (167 views)
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Well, as long as it's not ugly canuckling! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


ElendilTheShort
Gondor


Sep 23 2013, 8:14am

Post #22 of 24 (186 views)
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I have never considered Gimli's passage to the West an oddity. [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember the Ring quest in the context of it's time is only equalled by Beren and Luthien's feat and in some ways surpasses it as it results in the defeat of the great evil of the time and in fact the defeat of the last incarnation of a great evil within the world.

This reward for any member of the Fellowship if they so chose it seems fitting under the right circumstances.


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 25 2013, 1:43pm

Post #23 of 24 (143 views)
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Definitely [In reply to] Can't Post

In this year March First, (Fouth Age 120) came at last the Passing of King Elessar. It is said that the beds (graves, tombs) of Meriadoc and Peregrin were set beside the bed of the great King. Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien and sailed down the Anduin and so over the Sea; and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. and when that ship passed an end was come in Middle Earth of the Fellowship of the Ring.
- Appendix B, Return of the King (emphasis mine)

So back to Letter #131:

I would draw some of the tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd.

Of *course* he's willing for fanfic additions to canon.

As long as they're from his own "minds and hands". Wink

******************************************
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Sometime hours and hours hence:
In The Green Dragon two ales could buy
And drank the one less filling I
And that has made all the difference.
- The Ale Less Filling, by Robert Frostymug


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Sep 26 2013, 11:12pm

Post #24 of 24 (126 views)
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it is said [In reply to] Can't Post

Is a very important phrase in Tolkien's world. And one which can't be proved one way or another, thankfully. Mind, I don't suppose that Gimli ever got to Valinor itself. Tol Eressa would have been as far as he ever got, I suppose.

 
 

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