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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why it is important that Galadriel (whom I love) not be the Glinda of The Hobbit, nor relate to The Wizards as
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 20 2013, 11:31pm

Post #26 of 157 (509 views)
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Bingo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...but I think what people are concerned about is the possibility of Gandalf being defeated and incapacitated in Dol Guldur, and then Galadriel coming in and blowing the roof off the place and wiping the floor with the same enemies that just pounded Gandalf into the dirt.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 20 2013, 11:41pm

Post #27 of 157 (464 views)
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The Elven Rings [In reply to] Can't Post

Just been re-reading the later parts of LOTR, and came across something I'd forgotten: a reference to Elrond's Ring - "Vilya, mightiest of the Three". So interestingly, though Elrond as younger and only half-elven, may be "junior" to Galadriel and certainly to Gandalf, he actually wields the most powerful Ring of the Elves. So they all have their own strengths. Galadriel with her foresight and Nenya, her "Ring of Adamant", is the front line, standing firm against Dol Guldur. Cirdan, at present, is in the rear, not immediately threatened, and has the wisdom and strength of character to let Narya go to their roaming guerrilla fighter Gandalf, who is both "out there" where the trouble is, and a Maia of great personal power. Elrond perhaps holds Vilya against the possibility of an even darker time; if Lothlorien fell to Dol Guldur, and the Havens were assailed by Sauron from the sea, Rivendell would be the last refuge and would indeed need the "mightiest of the Three".


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 12:17am

Post #28 of 157 (496 views)
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She was in the Tutelage of a Maiar, but she was not herself one. The Istari, on the other hand, are Maiar [In reply to] Can't Post

they are limited by the terms of their incarnation, but they are not limited to the point of being less mighty than those natrually carnate beings. They are forbidden to reveal much of their innate Spiritual power, and much of this seems to be suppressed by their corperal forms, but all the powers available to Elves and Men, as well as some that are not, are available to them.

And what you highlight is EXACTLY the problem, the film perspective. If the film's pedal a fundemental notion about the balance among the powers of Middle-Earth that is in no way supported by the book, they are in effect peddling a lie that contradicts and undermines the original legendarium, on a massive scale that millions will be influenced by.

In Reply To
Based on what Boyens said (being the most powerful person on ME during the Hobbit and bringing a feminine quality to the scene), the mentions and quotes of her in some of the passages in the books regarding her power (though not specific) and based on her Ninja disappearance with Gandalf (although some say it was just in his mind as she can talk telepathically), you will most likely see Galadriel fight and cast a magical spell (song) or use the elements (water, earth) during battle (maybe even her mind reading abilities, who knows), plus she also learned extensively from Melian; one of the most powerful Maiars during that time. . .



But looking from the perspective of those who only watched the movies, it is more likely that everyone's nightmare of her saving the two will most likely come true based on what Boyens said and what I've seen in the movies so far, and how they would capitalize on she is regarded in the books (which is very much subject to interpretation, and I believe that interpreation will be undoubtedly be action and magical...based on just what we've seen with Arwen).


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 12:30am

Post #29 of 157 (461 views)
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Mostly true, and she was very powerful. Was Bombadil overlooked. In any event, even at 8 [In reply to] Can't Post

being the 8th most powerful entity in all the world is no small thing. I don't think 'just" can prefix number 8 when the entire population of Earth is on the other side of 8.

I don't think Sauron would have to have had the Ring. With the Ring, he would not need to come in person, as he would control all that any of the bearers of The Three Rings had done.

In the Third Age, once the war of the Ring was fully underway, only Sauron could have prevailed against Lothlorien of the evil powers known to inhabit the world at the time. I think it is very likely that, prior to the launching of those battles, The Balrog likely also could have provided the requisite evil threat to Lothlorien (as I believe Tolkien vaguely suggested in either Letters or other commentary), for the Balrogs of Morgoth, unlike the Nazgul of Sauron, had no fear of high-elves, and were responsible for the deaths of several of Galadriel's own near kin, including mighty Feanor. They were Maiar who had a part in the creation of the world and the destruction of The Lamps, long before any Elf walked in Middle-Earth, and that is no small matter. It may also be the spirit guided subconcious reason that Gandalf went through Moria. Part of his undisclosed (even to his waking mind) "full purpose".

Indeed, his great concern about Dol Guldur was for Lothlorien and Rivendel, with Lothlorien pinched between two fell, evil Maiar, a Balrog in Moria and Sauron in Dol Guldur, and each doubtless aware of the other and with some shared purpose (Durin's Bane routed all the dwarves of Moria, and the very terror of his presence sent a third of Lothlorien's Elves into flight. He could easily have routed the orcs and trolls Sauron sent to repopulate the mountain kingdom, but he did not etc.)

"I knew then already that Sauron was preparing war. . . I felt then and I am SURE now, that to strike Lothlorien and Rivendell as soon as he felt strong enough was his original intent. It would have been much better for him, and much worse for us."

In Reply To
Seems pretty powerful to me for just being no. 8

She was able being fooled by Sauron in the Second Age by suggesting to Celebrimbor to hide the Three Rings.
She was the one who formed the White Council and suggested that Gandalf be the leader
She was the one who suggested to Aragorn to seek the Path of the Dead to Aid in the War (Not Elrond, in the books at least)
She gave Frodo a Phial as she knew he was going to need it (and other gifts that proved useful) or the quest would have failed
She was the one who tracked Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog, sending the eagles to fetch him, and healed him back to health
She, along with the others, provided a distraction for Sauron's forces and hence Lorien was assaulted 3 times to ensure they don't interfere in the war, and was mentiond by Tolkien himself that the power that dealt there (despite her Elven army) was far too great to overcome unless Sauron came there himself; presumbably with the One Ring on his finger; she also suggested to to Frodo that not only signing of trees or elven arrows were solely responsible for the defense of Lorien

These are just some of the mentions about her...and there are far more; I don't see much about Radagast and the others...surely, a Mair is more poweful than an Elf but they were also limited to use their powers - Galadriel, whatever she knew wasn't...and even though he did not come to specifics, it is clear that without Galadriel; just as much as Gandalf, the quest would have definitely failed. If you put Radagast in defense of Lorien, without Galadriel, I doubt he would have been as successful in repelling the attacks. Even during the attacks, only the woodland borders were damaged, they did not even get into the forest and Lorien had no high walls or towers...

...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 12:36am

Post #30 of 157 (493 views)
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Well, they thought of having the Staff of the Chief Istari Messenger of Eru and The Valar shattered by Sauron's human-Wraith [In reply to] Can't Post

lieutenant. . . kinda killed our confidence that they were above making blatant, gaudy missteps. Thank God that stayed in EE only.

In Reply To
.... but with all due respect, as the months - years - have gone by in here, people have worried and agonised over so many things that never happened:

Would they include all 13 dwarves? Would one of the dwarves be female?

Did Bifur's axe show the they were making fun of people with brain damage?

Were they leaving out the Arkenstone? Would Bard be in the film at all?

Had Gandalf been captured by goblins along with the dwarves?

I could go on, but I won't. Flap after flap after flap, about terrible possibilities that were never more than an idea in the mind of poster. PJ and co had probably never even thought of them, much less intended to do them, yet all that energy was expended on worrying about them.

I'm intrigued by the Dol Guldur storyline because I can't imagine how they're going to pull it off. A battle in which the safety of the protagonists on both sides is guaranteed, because they all have to appear in later episodes of the story, is a very difficult proposition. Where's the tension to come from? That's why I rather hoping that they'll come up with something that isn't a pitched battle. I don't know what yet, hence the intrigue.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 12:41am

Post #31 of 157 (491 views)
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Meaning [In reply to] Can't Post


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But doesn't that just go to show that 'who is the most powerful' is meaningless?


Au contraire. It means everything to our estimation of Boyen's talent as a writer, or lack of it. It has great meaning or are you are saying that Ainur is wasting his time with these stimulating discussions about the movies honoring the mythology?


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 8:56am

Post #32 of 157 (461 views)
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This is what it all comes back to really, isn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

The breaking of Gandalf's staff. Yes, that was wrong. They tried to up the tension as the always do and went too far - but mark this, even that scene has its roots in the book.

'The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. the red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Now, what they did in that scene was to show Gandalf through the Rider's eyes, effectively, as old and defeated, and it didn't work. It went too far. But even Tolkien deliberately left open the question of who would have won the confrontation if the cock had not crowed and the horns of Rohan had not sounded. When Denethor taunted Gandalf with the power of the Lord of the Nazgul - 'can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?' Gandalf didn't say - "no contest, mate, you forget I'm a Maia and he's only the wriath of a man." Look at what he did say,

'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.'

When the Rider breaks away from the gate because the horns have sounded we don't know whether he or Gandalf would have triumphed and Tolkien didn't mean us to know.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 10:12am

Post #33 of 157 (443 views)
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Oh - are we discussing Philippa Boyens? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the discussion was about the nature of power in Middle Earth, and you've missed my point entirely.

There is no absolute heirarchy of power. It isn't possible to set up some sort of league table which will predict the outcome of any conflict - he's a Maia - 100 points. Oh but wait, he's limited by his assumed form - beter knock 10 off. But he has got a staff, give him 20 for that. She's an elf - yes, but she is a Noldorin elf - 15 extra for that......

It isn't how Tolkien works. The most powerful can be defeated by the least, and there are no certainties. Gandalf doesn't know if he can defeat the Lord of the Nazgul. (And in fact he can't - it's going to take a girl and a hobbit to do that) Gandalf and the Balrog are pretty evenly matched; he seems to have got the best of it when a tiny accident - a moment of carelessness, perhaps? - leads to his downfall, not from some superior magic or power, but from a random stroke of bad luck when the Balrog's whip catches him. Harry Potter at 14 years old could have dealt with that. Quick swish of the wand, shout of 'Relashio' - solved.

But Middle Earth doesn't work like that. For all Gandalf's power a simple accident can bring him down, and if you don't take that on board you miss the whole point. Gandalf is powerful. Galadriel is powerful. Sauron is powerful - but Morgoth, who could have eaten them all for breakfast, was brought down by an elf and a man. And it wasn't Gandalf,or Glorfindel or Galadriel, who took the Ring to Mordor. It was a hobbit - no power whatever - and though he brought Sauron right to the precipice, victory was achieved in the end by a poor wrecked little creature who meant only to steal something for himself. The idea of the great being brought down by the small, and the greater needing the lesser, runs through the whole fabric of Middle Earth; if the films show that then they are "honouring the mythology."


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 21 2013, 11:14am

Post #34 of 157 (464 views)
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Great myth making refracts human frailty [In reply to] Can't Post

  
We are all caught up in Tolkien is because consciously or unconsciously we realise that his world whilst sub created deals with the profoundest truths of the human condition in an utterly representative way which we can consciously or sub consciously connect with.

You have outlined so beautifully the delicious irony that readers are trying to define and calculate the undefinable. The one overriding message that Tolkien provides us with is that the small can bring down the mighty. That with faith and belief we can arrive there (Erebor/Doom) and through our achievements and the blessing of the Valar achieve the unthinkable because fate is with us irrespective of our "power quotient".

To anticipate a misstep between "Galadriel the greatest of the Eldar surviving in Middle earth, who was potent mainly in wisdom and goodness, as a director or councillor in the struggle, unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit ) but incapable of punitive action" and Gandalf "an Istari forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty... by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade " is too pre-emptive a thought.

I am encouraged, by :-

1) Gandalf's portrayal in AUJ it is highly nuanced. The magical finding of the entrance to Rivendell, the blessed escape from the mountain and calling down of Manwe's Eagles (these are the Eagles of the Silmarillion not the book Hobbit), his telepathic conversation with

2) Galadriel whose performance in all regards at the White Council is steeped in "wisdom", No position at the table she stands and strokes her point of view into action over the self important vainglorious Saruman.

The meeting of a great temporal power and a humble spiritual power who have both bathed in the in the light of the trees and the faces of the gods is pitched beautifully. This is not a meeting of the joint senate committee full of hot air and rhetoric and hierarchical power displays this is based on a simple premise old friends re aquatinted with the nuances expected between (one an utterly beautiful woman the other an ancient elder man) which like the best of Tolkien is why it works and grows with repeated viewings.






In Reply To

But Middle Earth doesn't work like that. For all Gandalf's power a simple accident can bring him down, and if you don't take that on board you miss the whole point. Gandalf is powerful. Galadriel is powerful. Sauron is powerful - but Morgoth, who could have eaten them all for breakfast, was brought down by an elf and a man. And it wasn't Gandalf,or Glorfindel or Galadriel, who took the Ring to Mordor. It was a hobbit - no power whatever - and though he brought Sauron right to the precipice, victory was achieved in the end by a poor wrecked little creature who meant only to steal something for himself. The idea of the great being brought down by the small, and the greater needing the lesser, runs through the whole fabric of Middle Earth; if the films show that then they are "honouring the mythology."


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 21 2013, 12:14pm

Post #35 of 157 (422 views)
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The nub of the storyline anticipation [In reply to] Can't Post

There are two concerns :-

1) That the Hobbit films harmonise with the LOTR films.

2) That the behaviour of the protagonists is appropriate given their relative placement in the legendarium.

Tolkien has the answers they are just sketchy. The White Council confronts the Necromencer and they appear to have some kind of victory but it is merely a feint by Sauron, which the audience may be allowed in to before the protagonists.

Gandalf barely survives and Galadriel, in an extension /transposition of her book role, in TTT comes to his rescue, this time 1st person, and subsequently heals and clothes him. He will suffer but I am not sure this is cliff hanger material given this is a prequel.

The only element that is not clear is whether she lays bare the pits aka post Sauron demise that might work if it is rounded off as a hollow victory limiting her effectiveness. So long as each characters arc has an inner coherence and we learn some thing more about the protagonists (a fleshing out of sketchy book material ) in the eye of the director it will work but it maybe separate from our personal vision of vaguely cast events.

One area I am looking forward to is the refracting and mirroring of the G & B story set up by G in his conversation with Galadriel. Each will have to summon up courage as the story develops echoing magnifying their journeys to Erebor/Guldur. I expect us the audience to be able to make a very deliberate connection between their denouements with N & S making for a strong emotional journey for us. Interestingly both could make great cinema as they may end enigmatically.



In Reply To
.. for a start, she can't defeat Sauron because he's got to be around for the LotR films. If they even make him look weak they risk undermining that whole story. For that matter, Gandalf can't defeat Sauron either.

Same applies to the Nazgul. And what else could there be as powerful?

So if she does rescue him, I feel that it has to be more a case of pulling him out of some shared danger than blasting the danger to the four winds by the power of her beautiful white frock. (Actually, joking aside I think that's one of the problems they've set themselves, or at least, that Tolkien set for them. It's very hard to imagine Galadriel actually getting dirty, for which reason it's better to keep her out of battles altogether!)

At the moment I can't imagine what they're doing with Dol Guldur and how they're going to handle it. That's why I refuse to flap over the 'what if's people come up with. The storyline they've gone for could be something none of us has imagined.


My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Sep 21 2013, 12:20pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 12:45pm

Post #36 of 157 (443 views)
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Well, lets just have Sauron overrun Lothlorien, "dragon fire and savage swords in Eriador, Night in Rivendell" [In reply to] Can't Post

if we are going to follow every worst case scenario the book offered. Yes, they went WAY too far, but that is not the only thing it comes back to. I could list a host of examples of flaw and folly, even though I generally love the films.

Your notion seems to be one of, "whatever they do, it will be appropriate, they wouldn't make any wildly irreverant changes that would upset the cosmological hierarchy of the legendarium," and I am saying, yes they would, they have done it before, and I would rather they not do it again.

And Tolkien ONLY left the question open in ROTK for the sake of building tension. Unlike them, however, he knew how to take it just far enough and then let it lie. It was already made plain from statements in Two Towers, not only by Aragorn but by Gandalf himself, that none but Sauron in Middle-Earth was a greater Power. If quotes are the order of the day, "So am I! Very dangerous. More dangerous than ANYTHING you will ever meet unless you are brought alive before the Throne of The Dark Lord." End of that conversation. Wink This is even aside from our knowledge that he had already defeated a Balrog, a creature Tolkien and common sense about the legendarium acknowledge as superior to any of the nine. I don't think The Witch King of Angmar was present at the beginning of time, when the Ainur sang the material world into being. I don't think The Witch-King ever caused any High-Elf to tremble in terror. I all but promise he never slew one of the mightier Elf-Lords in combat. I digress, but I know you take my meaning.

In Reply To
The breaking of Gandalf's staff. Yes, that was wrong. They tried to up the tension as the always do and went too far - but mark this, even that scene has its roots in the book.

'The Black Rider flung back his hood, and behold! he had a kingly crown; and yet upon no head visible was it set. the red fires shone between it and the mantled shoulders vast and dark. From a mouth unseen there came a deadly laughter.
"Old fool!" he said. "Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade."

Now, what they did in that scene was to show Gandalf through the Rider's eyes, effectively, as old and defeated, and it didn't work. It went too far. But even Tolkien deliberately left open the question of who would have won the confrontation if the cock had not crowed and the horns of Rohan had not sounded. When Denethor taunted Gandalf with the power of the Lord of the Nazgul - 'can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?' Gandalf didn't say - "no contest, mate, you forget I'm a Maia and he's only the wriath of a man." Look at what he did say,

'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly. 'But our trial of strength is not yet come.'

When the Rider breaks away from the gate because the horns have sounded we don't know whether he or Gandalf would have triumphed and Tolkien didn't mean us to know.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 1:00pm

Post #37 of 157 (441 views)
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I agree about no absolutes, but not in the way I think you mean it. [In reply to] Can't Post

By chance, or more accurately by Fate (which is still hierarchacal in a way, as it is the movement of a Higher Power, whether Melkor's malice or the intent of Eru himself or of the Valar {it was the strangest event in all the history of the Ring, Bilbo putting his hand on it blindly in the dark... behind that there was more than one Power at work... Bilbo was meant to find this Ring}) a lesser power may defeat a greater one. "When good is seen to stand against overwhelming evil, it is said, 'There are Glorfindel and The Balrog,'" Instances where, by prowess and blessing, the Mighty are defeated by those who may be or definitively are less. Eowyn and Merry defeating The Witch-King, Grima overcoming Saruman unawares, Sam driving back Shelob, Aragorn driving back several Nazgul, Elf Lords doing the unheard of (in the revised Legendarium particularly) and defeating Balrogs (though they invariably perished in the deed).

However, that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about the powers at play, specifically. The Nazgul Lord would be little more likely to break the staff of the chief Istari than would Galadriel have managed to shatter The Ruling Ring with her phenomenal psychic gifts. There are chance victories, and then there is outright defiance or willfull ignorance about the Powers of Middle-Earth.

No. That wasn't ill luck alone. That was the Balrog, a great Power in its own right, deciding that the fight was not finished and doing something about it. If there is a consistent theme in Middle-Earth it may well be that one does not simply dismiss a Balrog. And I think you severely underestimate Balrogs if you think Potter's wand would have made the whip let go. Who says The Balrog would have allowed the lash to release? He didn't allow the door to Marzabul to remained closed did he? So many people forget that overwhelming display of sorcery on the part of the demon.

Also to say "he can't" reffering to Gandalf is inaccurate. "That I might have prevented save for the madness of Denethor." Say rather, he doesn't and they do. That is a fair and accurate assesment.

I agree with you that absolutes are not in on victories, but we are merely talking about displays of power. Merry might slip one in on The Witch King, but Merry isn't going to show him up in a display of magical force. And really, that is what we are discussing. Will Galadriel come in, blowing the roof off Dol Guldur while the Wizards barely hold their own, not by chance, but by display of awesome magical force beyond anything the Wizards seem able to manage. THAT is the crux of the issue.

In Reply To
I thought the discussion was about the nature of power in Middle Earth, and you've missed my point entirely.

There is no absolute heirarchy of power. It isn't possible to set up some sort of league table which will predict the outcome of any conflict - he's a Maia - 100 points. Oh but wait, he's limited by his assumed form - beter knock 10 off. But he has got a staff, give him 20 for that. She's an elf - yes, but she is a Noldorin elf - 15 extra for that......

It isn't how Tolkien works. The most powerful can be defeated by the least, and there are no certainties. Gandalf doesn't know if he can defeat the Lord of the Nazgul. (And in fact he can't - it's going to take a girl and a hobbit to do that) Gandalf and the Balrog are pretty evenly matched; he seems to have got the best of it when a tiny accident - a moment of carelessness, perhaps? - leads to his downfall, not from some superior magic or power, but from a random stroke of bad luck when the Balrog's whip catches him. Harry Potter at 14 years old could have dealt with that. Quick swish of the wand, shout of 'Relashio' - solved.

But Middle Earth doesn't work like that. For all Gandalf's power a simple accident can bring him down, and if you don't take that on board you miss the whole point. Gandalf is powerful. Galadriel is powerful. Sauron is powerful - but Morgoth, who could have eaten them all for breakfast, was brought down by an elf and a man. And it wasn't Gandalf,or Glorfindel or Galadriel, who took the Ring to Mordor. It was a hobbit - no power whatever - and though he brought Sauron right to the precipice, victory was achieved in the end by a poor wrecked little creature who meant only to steal something for himself. The idea of the great being brought down by the small, and the greater needing the lesser, runs through the whole fabric of Middle Earth; if the films show that then they are "honouring the mythology."


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Noria
Rohan

Sep 21 2013, 1:02pm

Post #38 of 157 (417 views)
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Dormouse, Michelle, that is how I see Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

Power is no guarantee of success, in fact it it fraught with pitfalls such as greater temptation posed by the Ring. Even the most powerful can trip and fall on their face.

The idea of ranking the power of individuals in Middle Earth seems strange to me. Tolkien acknowledges so many kinds of power, from the brute force of the warrior, to magic, to the power to withstand and endure, to make things grow, to heal.

The Gandalf that I saw in AUJ was not concerned about the presence of Galadriel at the meeting in Rivendell but with Saruman's interference. It seemed to me that he had no intention of changing his course, that he didn't need Galadriel's blessing but was glad to have her support.

Also, the movie Middle Earth has not made much of the wizard's exalted origins and to any LotR movie-only fan they probably seem to be men with magic.

I don't pay much attention to the sound bytes from the film's producers which area as worthless as all sound bytes are..


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 1:43pm

Post #39 of 157 (419 views)
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Do I? Crumbs, I wish you took mine!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Your notion seems to be one of, "whatever they do, it will be appropriate, they wouldn't make any wildly irreverant changes that would upset the cosmological hierarchy of the legendarium," and I am saying, yes they would, they have done it before, and I would rather they not do it again.


1. No. If the purpose of this thread is just knocking Philippa Boyens once again, rather than discussing the nature of power in Middle Earth, then that is emphatically not what I'm saying. So far as I can see, there's only one sensible thing to say about that. I'll happily discuss the changes that have been made in adapting the story WHEN I'VE SEEN ALL THREE FILMS AND KNOW WHAT THOSE CHANGES ARE. And, if possible, when I've heard Philippa Boyens and Peter Jackson explain the thinking behind what they've done. Imagining what they might do and then attacking them for it as though it has already happened is unjust - it's also a terrible waste of energy.

2. Quotations, as it happens, are a very good basis for discussion, particularly if we're thinking about what Tolkien actually said, not what we think he said. The rest of that quotation you give is significant. In context, Gimli is surprised that Gandalf speaks of Fangorn/Treebeard as a friend, because he thought Fangorn was dangerous. Here's the full reply:

''Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous that anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.''

It makes a difference. Gandalf's point is not 'I'm the most powerful'. He's telling Gimli that power doesn't have to be negative and even in your friends, and yourself, there may be power that you don't suspect.

As for the confrontation with the Rider, I'm surprised you dismiss what Tolkien says so easily:

Quote
And Tolkien ONLY left the question open in ROTK for the sake of building tension.

I think Tolkien makes it very clear in the book that Gandalf is vulnerable and knows it. For a reason. This isn't some cheap fantasy where the characters can look up their relative values on a chart and know in advance if they will win or lose. Whatever power Gandalf has of his own nature he most certainly does not have certainty of victory, and nor should we have it as readers. The Lord of the Nazgul may have been a man once, but as he crosses the Pelennor and stands in the gate of the city he has the power of Sauron behind him. Look at the way Gandalf sums him up:

'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'

The power Gandalf faces there is Sauron, channelled through one of his greater servants - and, as I pointed out before, Gandalf wouldn't have won the confrontation. He knew the prophecy. It was going to take a girl and a hobbit to do that.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 4:29pm

Post #40 of 157 (392 views)
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Boyens [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Oh - are we discussing Philippa Boyens? I thought the discussion was about the nature of power in Middle Earth...


Most certainly. While your and Ainur's arguments are well rooted to citing the consistency of the mythology, I am speaking in real world terms. All these arguments are derived from Boyens' statement that Galadriel is the most powerful being on Middle-earth at the time in a transparent attempt to use "femine energy" as a greater priority than honoring the mythology. It is ironic that while you properly constrain yourself to the mythology, she does not. Her statement is in bold ignorance of the mythology. I do not believe that she actually is ignorant of the mythology; only that she is indulging in what I might call 'wishful prophecy' - saying things are true because one's agenda hopes that people will believe it and so become true by force of will. Our doubt - my doubt - comes from Boyens' demonstrated faithlessness to the mythology to advance her own agenda - not anything the mythology itself has to say about powerful beings. Such faithless examples are all the things written by Boyens, et al, that Ainur has reasonably railed against.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 21 2013, 4:31pm)


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Sep 21 2013, 4:36pm

Post #41 of 157 (392 views)
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Tolkien is so confusing...or is he, really? [In reply to] Can't Post

"The Ring of Adamant was in the Land of Lůrien where dwelt the Lady Galadriel. A queen she was of the woodland Elves, the wife of Celeborn of Doriath, yet she herself was of the Noldor and remembered the Day before days in Valinor, and she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."

"Three times Lůrien had been assailed from Dol Guldur, but BESIDES the valour of the elven people of that land, the power that dwelt there was too great for ANY to overcome, unless Sauron had come there HIMSELF. Though grievous harm was done to the fair woods on the borders, the assaults were driven back"

....I wonder how those who see Elrond as being more powerful than Galadriel will interpret this...pretty specific to me. I am also sure Tolkien probably mentioned somewhere that Gadalf is also the most powerful, some passage. We don't even know what Galadriel even learned from Melian but Lothlorien was not protectected by a Girdle but whatever she did was pretty effective. We can theorize that if the attacking force that attacked Gondor attacked Lorien that the outcome may be different, but again, Tolkien is quite specific and did not say "the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome, etc.," and he specifically mentioned that Sauron had to be there himself, not in the shadow but that very much suggests a physical shape, and it will take him to break whatever Galadriel has to dish out...

This for me hardly constitutes no. 8 in power if the author of the book himself stated it specifically. Of course, we can always get into semantics I suppose, which is the beauty of things or we wouldn't have forums...lol


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 4:47pm

Post #42 of 157 (372 views)
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Galadriel's Power [In reply to] Can't Post


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......she was the mightiest and fairest of all the Elves that remained in Middle-earth."


Galadriel's power was qualified twice here:

1. "...of all the Elves..." restricts the statement to a comparison of her power among Elves - no other beings on Middle-earth.

2. "...that remained in Middle-earth" restricts the statement from including ALL Elves.

While Boyens' statement does acknowledge #2, it ignores #1 except to twist it into saying Galadirel is the most powerful being on Middle-earth. Thus we get an emasculated Gandalf who may be subservient to Galadriel.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Sep 21 2013, 4:48pm)


Noria
Rohan

Sep 21 2013, 5:07pm

Post #43 of 157 (385 views)
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Gandalf is emasculated and subservient if Galadriel is more powerful that he is??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Too funny.

Seriously, harking back to the discussion a little below, itís pretty clear that anything Boyens and Walsh write only makes it into the movies if Jackson approves it. Nothing makes into the movies, from the smallest prop to the biggest CG effect unless he approves it. Do you really think PB is pulling the wool over PJís eyes? Heís read the book. She just happened to be the one to make the remark about Galadriel. So you might lay the blame where itís deserved, if blame is deserved.

The whole feminine energy thing probably does come from the two female writers and I for one think the movie is better for it. I may protest if Galadriel picks Gandalf up off the field of battle and carries him off like a babe in arms, but thatís pretty unlikely, IMO. We who have read and loved The Hobbit and LotR donít mind or are at least used to the scarcity of women but we are only a small portion of the target audience. These are movies more for the unread masses than book lovers.

As I said above, to anyone who has seen the movies but never read the books, the Istari are just old men with magic, maybe immortal because of that magic, but nothing like elevated beings of a celestial origin. Gandalfís mysterious return from Moria is never fully explained and I bet most casual movie fans donít even get that he really died. It works.

I agree with Dormouse here:
"I'll happily discuss the changes that have been made in adapting the story WHEN I'VE SEEN ALL THREE FILMS AND KNOW WHAT THOSE CHANGES ARE. And, if possible, when I've heard Philippa Boyens and Peter Jackson explain the thinking behind what they've done. Imagining what they might do and then attacking them for it as though it has already happened is unjust - it's also a terrible waste of energy. "


(This post was edited by Ataahua on Sep 22 2013, 1:27am)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 5:24pm

Post #44 of 157 (359 views)
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The fact of the matter is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...there IS a heirarchy in Middle-earth. Sure, Galadriel could keep most evil at bay due to Nenya, but ONLY while the One Ring existed. And she's a mighty elf, no doubt, but she's just an elf. A similar power resided in Rivendell - Elrond's stronghold was protected by the power of Vilya.

Sauron, Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the Blue Wizards existed before the world began, and indeed even had a hand in its creation. Sorry, but Galadriel is not on that same level in the "heirarchy" of beings. She is not "divine" as the Ainur are.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 5:32pm

Post #45 of 157 (384 views)
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Not necessarily... [In reply to] Can't Post


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As I said above, to anyone who has seen the movies but never read the books, the Istari are just old men with magic, maybe immortal because of that magic, but nothing like elevated beings of a celestial origin. Gandalfís mysterious return from Moria is never fully explained and I bet most casual movie fans donít even get that he really died.


My mother has never read the books, but after viewing the LotR films she was under the impression that Gandalf was some kind of an angel or divine being. There are plenty of clues to that in the films - his actions during the Balrog attack, his resurrection, his exorcism-like rescue of Theoden from Saruman's influence, his describing Valinor to Pippin, and his leaving on the ship at the end.


Quote
Too funny. And Neanderthal.


It has nothing to do with male vs female. It has to do with Maia vs Elf. One is clearly higher up in terms of inherent power than the other.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 21 2013, 5:34pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 5:45pm

Post #46 of 157 (383 views)
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This is starting to sound like 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad" ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

No need to be sorry, Salmacis. Yes, there is a heirachy of beings but not of power, achievement or results. Every character in Middle Earth has some power within them and the smallest can overthrow the greatest if the time is right..


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 21 2013, 5:50pm

Post #47 of 157 (358 views)
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It's all a bit convoluted [In reply to] Can't Post

I could poison (Insert your most powerful person in film or RL) and technically I could win. Does that mean that I am better? No, I cheated, or they were having a bad day,(I could beat Michael Jordan at BB on a very bad day) or anything else. There is no ultamitely measure if power, for hobbits have power of a different kind than men, in the ability to resist the Ring, but they will not be out fighting orcs. Power is highly subjective and ill-defined.

What matters most is that Good>Evil.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 6:32pm

Post #48 of 157 (342 views)
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Not really talking about the same thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand that the weak can sometimes defeat the strong - but that is NOT what I'm talking about, and that is not the concern here. Galadriel helping Gandalf out of a bind is fine, but Galadriel handling with ease a group of enemies that just overwhelmed Gandalf is what the issue of this thread is. Can't make it any plainer than that. If you think its appropriate for Galadriel to come in guns blazing, tearing through foes with ease while Gandalf lies on the floor unconscious, then I'm going to have to disagree with you. If NOT, then I'm not sure what you're arguing about.

As for the hierarchy, the higher one is in within that hierarchy, the greater their inherent power is. Maiar are, for all intents and purposes, lesser gods who existed before, and aided in, the creation of Arda.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 21 2013, 6:40pm

Post #49 of 157 (321 views)
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Again, we're talking about display of force here... [In reply to] Can't Post

...not the fact that a "weak" being such as a hobbit could defeat a Maia (even in an indirect way such as destroying that Maia's ring).

Gandalf, being a Maia of Valinor, should have more at his disposal than Galadriel, who while a powerful elf in her own right, is merely an elf.


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 21 2013, 6:51pm

Post #50 of 157 (329 views)
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What makes you think..... [In reply to] Can't Post

.....Galadriel IS going "to come in guns blazing, tearing through foes with ease while Gandalf lies on the floor unconscious"?

Of course that wouldn't be appropropriate, any more than having her knock down the walls of Dol Guldur with a JCB would be appropriate, but since there isn't the faintest possibility of either thing happening I can't see any point in getting excited about it - or thinking up arguments against it. Anyone who has read the books will know it's ridiculous.

On the other hand, if they've created a scenario in which Gandalf is in some kind of difficulty and is helped by Galadriel I can't see why that will necessarily diminish his power. Or offend against Tolkien's story. After all, Tolkien gave us an instance of Galadriel doing that very thing in LotR.

I can't judge what I haven't seen - I'm surprised anyone can.


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