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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Will Smaug's attack on Laketown...
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StarGodziller
Bree


Sep 15 2013, 10:13pm

Post #1 of 26 (1019 views)
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Will Smaug's attack on Laketown... Can't Post

Be at the end of Desolation of Smuag or the beginning of There and Back Again? What do you guys think?

I could see it both ways, personally. On the one hand, it would make a perfect climax and ending for Desolation, on the other hand, there might not be enough material for a third film and it would make one heck of an opening scene for There and Back Again too.


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Sep 15 2013, 11:14pm

Post #2 of 26 (572 views)
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Both? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am in the camp that thinks we might see Smaug's end as the climax to DOS - but that wouldn't keep them from doing some flashbacks in TABA. After all, we did get two versions of the Bridge of Khazad-dum in LOTR, we might get different perspectives on Smaug vs. Laketown also.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2013, 12:00am

Post #3 of 26 (528 views)
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This is what I'm thinking... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
there might not be enough material for a third film



I don't see how a full film could be made from just the Bo5A and the home journey. What else is there? Unless Smaug dies in DoS and the siege of Dol Guldur doesn't happen until early TaBA.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2013, 2:19am

Post #4 of 26 (475 views)
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more things could happen too in TABA... [In reply to] Can't Post

i think the laketown smaug battle might be the opening of TABA, but dol-guldur will hopefully be the climax of DOS...


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Arandir
Gondor


Sep 16 2013, 6:12am

Post #5 of 26 (441 views)
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Let's not forget that the third Hobbit film [In reply to] Can't Post

was close to being named 'The Battle of Five Armies', which whilst doesn't give any clear indication of its content, it may confirm that the filmmakers had a good indication on how to make film 3 centered solely around the battle ...

TORN had covered the story here

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


dormouse
Half-elven


Sep 16 2013, 7:47am

Post #6 of 26 (408 views)
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I agree .... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Smaug's end is a climax, has to be. I really can't imagine them throwing that away at the beginning of the third film - a moment like that needs build-up to have its full impact.

On the other hand, flash-backs to it in the third film - probably from another point of view - are very likely. It's a technique Peter Jackson has used very well in the past.


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 16 2013, 10:27am

Post #7 of 26 (375 views)
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I very much hope... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it will be at the beginning of TABA.

End of Dos: White Council attack on Dol Guldur & Smaug burning the mountainside & the trush flying off to Laketown (possibly send by Bilbo personally)

Beginning of TABA: Prologue with Dale/Girion history, then attack on Laketown



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Arandir
Gondor


Sep 16 2013, 10:34am

Post #8 of 26 (370 views)
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But the climax [In reply to] Can't Post

As dormouse stated, this scene is pretty much a pivotal climax in the story, which cant be at the beginning of the film. If it does happen in TABA then I'd imagine it would occur closer to the middle of the film ... allowing for the appropriate buildup to occur.

Which is why I would prefer seeing the scene following the Smaug/Dwarves confrontation in DOS ... leaving TABA exclusively for the BoFA and its leadup/consequences and impact rather than have two monumental climaxes that may eliminate each other's effect in a single film ...

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 16 2013, 10:50am

Post #9 of 26 (368 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the attack on Laketown can be drawn out, of course, maybe intercut with Gandalf regrouping in Mirkwood and setting out for the North. But I guess Smaug's death will remain the end of the first act of TABA, with the second act being the Bot5A and the final act the journey home and maybe some epilogue.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Arandir
Gondor


Sep 16 2013, 11:07am

Post #10 of 26 (349 views)
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It just feels [In reply to] Can't Post

as if Fellowship of the Ring ends with the Company reaching Parth Galen and ending the film there; opening The Two Towers with the attack of the Uruk-Hai and Boromir's death.

That way, you would lose momentum of the whole story. In the books it's a different matter and was done for very speific reasons not adaptable to the screen.

Ah well, its seems like there are pros and cons in both scenarios - DOS or TABA. I just cant wait to see how Peter deals with this!Smile

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'

(This post was edited by Arandir on Sep 16 2013, 11:08am)


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 16 2013, 11:24am

Post #11 of 26 (335 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it won't, hoping that the skirmish at DG will be pretty awesome, as will be the bruning of the mountain-side (I guess, the dwarves will be close to the firestorm, maybe being the direct target of Smaug until he decides to attack the city).

But I agree that it will be a challenge for the director and the editor to make it work.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Arandir
Gondor


Sep 16 2013, 12:16pm

Post #12 of 26 (326 views)
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Did I mention [In reply to] Can't Post

--slightly off topic here--

...how similar our ToRN names look/sound?Tongue

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


Arannir
Valinor


Sep 16 2013, 12:26pm

Post #13 of 26 (326 views)
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Haha... yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Mine is the attempt to translate my name Patrick ("noble man") into Sindarin ;) But I used the words for "man" and "noble" rather losely ;)



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Arandir
Gondor


Sep 16 2013, 3:53pm

Post #14 of 26 (278 views)
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I see [In reply to] Can't Post

Mine was much simpler, trying to come up with a mixture of "Mithrandir" and "Earendil" ... got pretty close to "Aerandir", the Mariner's companion ... Laugh

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 16 2013, 4:13pm

Post #15 of 26 (272 views)
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Good question [In reply to] Can't Post

Where Smaug dies and the story of Thrain are my too main questions that I have for the film (can't wait for them to be answered).

Personally I would prefer Smaug's attack on Laketown to be done as the climax of DOS, and the the Dol Guldur battle and BO5A to be in TABA. So, DOS will be be about the Dwarves finally reaching the Lonely Mountain and chasing Smaug away, but the cliffhanger will be BOTH what happens to Gandalf (assume he is in trouble in Dol Guldur) AND will the Dwarves be able to keep their treasure now that both the men and elves are plotting to seize Erebor.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Sep 16 2013, 6:01pm

Post #16 of 26 (285 views)
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Six More Chapters [In reply to] Can't Post

I am firmly of the belief that DOS has multiple climaxes and just when you think it has ended you get a little more.

The sub plot will climax with the battle of Dol Gulder and the consequences for the Istari.

Bilbo will have his riddle scene with Smaug and return to the Dwarves who will begin there discussion and then all hell will break lose we will finally see Smaug and after some pyrotechnics round the mountain will fly off to Lake Town cut.

TABA will have the most amazing prologue and end with the worm taking a bath. Then the story telling in response to the worms demise will get under weigh big time.

Act 1 will see all the character building that has gone on the first five hours will now receive its payoff as each character responds to the eucotastrophe in his/her unique way. From the first Thorin to the last The Master. This is the point at which we get the pay off for Azog as the embodiment of evil gathering all for a final assault on Erebor. He provides evil with continuity and threat. By now he is big enough to carry the story as a sponsor of the dark lord and retaining a sense of real jeopardy after Smaug's death. He is bigger than the Bolg of the book because he has been with us through out and his linkage with the necromancer will have been revealed by this stage.

Act 2 will bring the story together with Gandalf's return, the stand off between "the good" the final attack by evil and finally death.

Act 3 will deal with the consequence of deaths, funerals, rapprochements the key one being T & B , new understandings Thranduil and Legolas and new kings.Bard/Dain

The epilogue is back again the rebuild of Dale through Balin's eyes and may also set up FOTR letting the audience see the beginning of the building of Barad Dur and the return of Sauron to Mordor and that no he was not defeated.

OR it will be something completely different not long now !!

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Owain
Tol Eressea


Sep 16 2013, 6:54pm

Post #17 of 26 (231 views)
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Yep. Makes sense to me.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Middle Earth is New Zealand!

"Question everything, embrace the bad, and hold on to the good."


cats16
Valinor


Sep 16 2013, 7:06pm

Post #18 of 26 (230 views)
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Good points, dormouse. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would be interested in the flashback idea, especially since there will be so much action in that sequence. There are plenty of points of view for them to consider.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 16 2013, 11:22pm

Post #19 of 26 (197 views)
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Makes sense. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien doesn't do victories; every battle from The Hobbit right the way through to the Black Gate at the end of LOTR, is also a partial defeat, and sets things in motion - just as the death of Smaug is really the first act in the loss of Laketown and the dispute over Erebor, and the apparent victory at Dol Guldor is really a defeat that sets up the conditions for Sauron to secretly build his forces undisturbed, which leads to the events in LOTR. So, any of these climactic events are equally at home at the end or at the beginning of any telling of one of the stories from the books.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Sep 17 2013, 7:49am

Post #20 of 26 (187 views)
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Don't forget on Lord of the Rings movies [In reply to] Can't Post

as we can get some informations from them. What we are talking about is a little similar to question if they will put Shelob in The Two Towers or in the Return of the King because honestly that was also a very tense and important chapter. If they wanted to stay true to the books they should show Shelob at the end of the second movie, right after victory at Helm's Deep because it would be more time accured. But they didn't because Peter Jackson and his crew told in commentaries that 2 so dramatic scenes would be too much for the end so they push Cirith Ungol in the third movie.
We can expect something similar here because if they will really show attack on Dol Guldur in Desolation of Smaug which will be at the end, I very much doubt that they will also show us Smaug attacking Laketown. In my opinion we will get this at the beginning of There and Back Again so that the main antagonist from the second movie will die in the beginning ot the third one, just like Saruman did in Return of the King movie.


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 17 2013, 10:14am

Post #21 of 26 (183 views)
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Climaxing is overrated. [In reply to] Can't Post

Who said that a film has to end with a dramatic climax anyway? If the story's good, then I don't really care where they put the dramatic bits, as I will be equally engaged with the other elements.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Peterthorn of Rohan
Rivendell

Sep 17 2013, 10:59am

Post #22 of 26 (173 views)
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Parralel: Dol Guldur-Laketown [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the climax of Dos will be the two battles. The battle of Dol Guldur and the destruction of Lake-Town.Wink


Ardamr
Valinor


Sep 17 2013, 11:57am

Post #23 of 26 (150 views)
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Took me forever to get you two straightened out! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


DjU
Lorien

Sep 17 2013, 3:37pm

Post #24 of 26 (135 views)
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not so [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If they wanted to stay true to the books they should show Shelob at the end of the second movie, right after victory at Helm's Deep because it would be more time accured. But they didn't because Peter Jackson and his crew told in commentaries that 2 so dramatic scenes would be too much for the end so they push Cirith Ungol in the third movie.


You've got that a little bit wrong there, Shelob's lair in the movies (give or take a day) IS technically in the correct place to be time accurate. The two Books of Two Towers don't go anywhere near the same speed. Your well into the first book of RotK before Shelob back into Two Towers happens.

In the books it takes place after a while after Gandalf arrives at Minas Tirith and Faramir heads back and forth to Osgiliath. Don't forget Sam and Frodo see the army leaving for Minas Morgul for the pellenor.

The timeline does go a bit wavy throughout Two Towers movie compared to the books but by Shelob happens its all back in relative sync. It doesn't really help that in the books all of Sam and Frodo's story from leaving the back gate to being captured at cirith ungol more or less happen whilst everyone else is pottering about at Dunharrow and Minas Tirith.


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Sep 18 2013, 6:07am

Post #25 of 26 (100 views)
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Making films [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
If they wanted to stay true to the books they should show Shelob at the end of the second movie, right after victory at Helm's Deep because it would be more time accured. But they didn't because Peter Jackson and his crew told in commentaries that 2 so dramatic scenes would be too much for the end so they push Cirith Ungol in the third movie.


You've got that a little bit wrong there, Shelob's lair in the movies (give or take a day) IS technically in the correct place to be time accurate. The two Books of Two Towers don't go anywhere near the same speed. Your well into the first book of RotK before Shelob back into Two Towers happens.

In the books it takes place after a while after Gandalf arrives at Minas Tirith and Faramir heads back and forth to Osgiliath. Don't forget Sam and Frodo see the army leaving for Minas Morgul for the pellenor.

The timeline does go a bit wavy throughout Two Towers movie compared to the books but by Shelob happens its all back in relative sync. It doesn't really help that in the books all of Sam and Frodo's story from leaving the back gate to being captured at cirith ungol more or less happen whilst everyone else is pottering about at Dunharrow and Minas Tirith.





I haven't read the books for a while so I may made some mistakes but my point was how did they shoot their movies and what we can learn from that. Many people that were working in Lord of the Rings trilogy are now also a part of the Hobbit movies but most importantly we have the same director and screenwriters so there is a greater chance that they will use a similar approach. Since they didn't want to show us so significant scenes one after another they decide that it would be the best to put Shelob in the third movie as Helm's Deep would then lose his power. Similar we can say about Dol Guldur and Lake Town as this are also very important action scenes.

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