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what if sauron was defeated in the first age?


Sep 11 2013, 9:55am

Post #1 of 4 (267 views)
what if sauron was defeated in the first age? Can't Post

Okay I have a scenario here in which I really want to spill out. That is, what if Sauron was killed or utterly defeated in the first age, and say Gothmog lord of Balrogs, survived and lived into the coming ages. could it have been a possibility that Gothmog, could become the new darklord? and if so would he be of even more superiority to Sauron, or will he be less powerful. either way I really love the idea of it!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Sep 11 2013, 10:26am

Post #2 of 4 (190 views)
It depends on which you think is worse [In reply to] Can't Post

being crushed by shear force from without

or crumbled by corruption from within.

I'd say that Gothmog would be more likely to command other balrogs, dragons, and various dark and nameless wild things. However, such evil consolidation without any effort towards dividing, conquering, and corrupting the "free peoples" would only lead to a much stronger, more sustained and continuous, and more unified and organized alliance greater in numbers (provided their important strongholds didn't get overwhelmed).

Sauron's efforts divided half of the Numenoreans into the "evil camp" and got them turned as a nation against the Valar - a thing that I don't think Gothmog would ever accomplish. He also effectively "took out" the elves by making them rely on rings which in turn relied on his one ring so that even if it was removed, their power would shrink from the world. I don't know the extent that elves relied on the rings for sure - maybe if they hadn't had the rings made, their power would have faded from the world sooner? But I am guessing that they could have survived a little longer if so much hadn't gotten bound up in the rings. I'm not sure on that, though.

Superuser / Moderator

Sep 12 2013, 5:09am

Post #3 of 4 (156 views)
I doubt that there would have been [In reply to] Can't Post

much in the way of a cohesive Enemy force, were that the case. A pet theory I've held for a long time (there's evidence to support it, but not enough for me to call it fact) is that the Balrogs gained their fearsome natures by putting their power into the bodies they crafted for themselves, in the way that Morgoth put his power into Arda itself or Sauron put his power into the One Ring. This is why when a Balrog is killed, they stay dead, unlike other Maiar (e.g. Gandalf/Sauron) who could gain new bodies after losing their existing ones.

If Gothmog were left in the place of Sauron, it's likely that the Balrog in Moria would have not hidden there for an Age, but served his Lord, and, like Escapist said, Gothmog may have been able to gather Smaug and the other dragons under his command, but they would have been no match for the forces of Gil-Galad, the remaining Silvan Elves, the Dwarves and the Numenoreans. Part of what made Sauron so successful was his ability to put on a fair-seeming face, something he was able to do until the Akallabeth. It was this fairness that lulled the Elves into complacency, allowing the Rings to be stolen, and let Sauron whisper lies among Elves, Men, and Dwarves in the manner that Melkor sowed lies and discord in Aman. Gothmog doesn't strike me as being the sort capable of such deeds-- especially given that he would be unable to shed his fearsome body for a fair-seeming one. And even if Gothmog has lasted through the 2nd Age, and was defeated in a manner similar to Sauron, there never would have been another rising of the Enemy at the end of the Third Age, as no Balrog has ever gained another body.

The Rings themselves would never have been forged. Celebrimbor, as clever as he was, needed the guidance and tutelage of Sauron, a one-time Maia of Aule, and knowledgeable of such things. Gothmog, as a Maia of Fire in the same class as Arien (who pilots the Sun), would not have had the knowledge to confer. Without the rings, the Witch-King and the Ringwraiths would never have come to be, which would have removed the need for Rivendell. Likely the Elven realms of Hollin and Lindon would have remained for millennia, and Moria would not have fallen into darkness as the Balrog there would not have stayed hidden until the Dwarves disturbed it. Which means also that Erebor would never have come to be, as Durin's folk would have had no need to find a new home.

The famed Seven Hoards of the Dwarves, each taken by a dragon, leading to the downfall of several dwarven realms, would never have grown to the level of wealth they attained, without the Seven Rings, and the dragons would likely not have come to lay claim to those hoards. The Istari would never have come to Middle-Earth, as they were sent in the Third Age in the event of Sauron's return-- something there would have been no need for if Gothmog had been defeated to end the Second Age.

Much that was beautiful and lost would still have remained, and the world would not have been broken by Illuvatar as the Numenoreans, even in their pride, would likely not have broken the ban of the Valar had Sauron not been there to poison the mind of Ar-Pharazon.

I could go on, but that's enough rambling. I like the tale as it is, myself. =)


Good night, tOR.Nados. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely delete you in the morning.


Sep 12 2013, 9:29am

Post #4 of 4 (161 views)
Tolkien described [In reply to] Can't Post

Balrogs as "lesser" Maia and Sauron as a "greater" Maia, so any Balrog would never acheive the self fulfilling dominant and commanding stature that Sauron did. Although Gothmog was a commander in the First Age this was under Morgoth.

Sauron was so great that Olorin, prior to being incarnated as Gandalf was afraid of travelling to Middle Earth as an Istari to challenge him as he knew Sauron was much more powerful than him.

No dark power would be anywhere near as powerful as Sauron.


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