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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Analysing the role of The Necromancer in The Hobbit

News from Bree
spymaster@theonering.net

Sep 10 2013, 9:36am

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Analysing the role of The Necromancer in The Hobbit Can't Post

Gandalf and Radagast at Dol Guldur We know that The Necromancer has a big role to play in The Desolation of Smaug. But just how big will it be? Will Dol Guldur be a relatively minor affair involving only Gandalf and his fellow wizards? Or will other key actors of The Hobbit be somehow drawn into the struggle in the south of Mirkwood?

In this feature, Ringer Captain Salt assembles what we know already form various actor blog posts, video logs and magazine articles and tries to tie it all together.

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Analysing the role of The Necromancer in The Hobbit


By Ringer Captain Salt

The Dol Guldur storyline was only a minor portion of the first Hobbit film. Yet it set in motion things which will expand into a major story thread in The Desolation of Smaug after Gandalf leaves the company early on to deal with "some pressing business away south".

Just how will the Necromancer story play out in the second film? It appears this depends on how many of the other story lines are tied into that which most serves as a direct prequel to The Lord of the Rings.

The widespread rise of evil



As Gandalf establishes in An Unexpected Journey, the rise of evil preceding The War of the Ring is not localized to Dol Guldur or Mirkwood; trolls and orcs on the move seem to spark concern that the watchful peace may be coming a close. Certainly, it seems that Azog is connected to the Necromancer, at the very least through his son/wretched offspring, Bolg. According to leaked Bridge Direct descriptions from last year:

It was said that Azog the Desecrator fell many years ago in the great battle between the Orcs and the Dwarves. But now he appears again at the top of a deadly horde of killer orcs. For Gandalf begins a race against time because he has to figure out the connection between the most dangerous orc commander and the growing evil, which takes shape in the ruins of the fortress of Dol Guldur. One thing is totally clear: no one will deter Azog from his intention to destroy Thorin Oakenshield's companions to the last dwarf.

Bolg is the offspring of Azog the Desecrator -- like his father, he is huge pale orc. He is the overseer in the dungeons of Dol Guldur -- torturing is his hobby. He garnishes his armor with the bones and the blood of his victims. This husky Orc fears nothing and nobody -- until he suddenly meets an unexpected opponent.


Azog -- Sauron's newest undead minion?



[caption id="attachment_70917" align="alignright" width="300"]Azog the Defiler Azog the Defiler[/caption] There have also been hints that Azog is in service to the Necromancer -- and may even have truly succumbed to his wounds at Azanulbizar and has been, well... necromanced... by Sauron. Might the re-use of the Nazgul motif during the Thorin/Azog confrontation at AUJ's end, which Howard Shore collaborator and documentarian Doug Adams maintains was thematically appropriate, hint that Azog, like the Nazgul, is one of Sauron's undead minions?

Also as some have noted, during the final confrontation with the Gundabad Orcs Sting gleams brightly until Bilbo lands across the head of Azog's warg, at which point the blade dims. Why? Because Sting recognizes that Azog is not a "living" Orc? And why is Bolg, himself a formidable Orc chieftain of the north in Tolkien's writings, serving as Sauron's interrogator? Does he owe the Dark Lord a debt for raising a slain Azog from the abyss?

Despite many fans' probable preference that Azog and Smaug remain independent agents rather than thralls of Sauron, the Bridge Direct description would not mention a connection between Azog and Sauron if there were not one. Additionally, in An Unexpected Journey Gandalf makes mention that he fears "the enemy" -- meaning Sauron -- could use Smaug "to terrible effect".

(As an aside, this actually ties closely with Gandalf's thoughts on the importance of Thorin's mission and the northern theater in Tolkien's The Quest for Erebor as published in Unfinished Tales).

And keep in mind that even before he had signed on to the project, but apparently after he had read the then-in-progress scripts, Ian McKellen mentioned that Peter Jackson and Co. had been quite clever about tying the various elements in The Hobbit together. The implication is that we would get a more cohesive narrative than the seemingly largely unrelated linear plot-lines that played out separately in An Unexpected Journey.



Things that have been revealed



[caption id="attachment_78694" align="alignright" width="300"]Thrain attacks Gandalf at Dol Guldur Thrain attacks Gandalf at Dol Guldur[/caption] Of course, we've been given the pieces which will extend naturally from An Unexpected Journey into the second film:

Thrain will be involved in some way -- he and Gandalf will meet in Dol Guldur, and his presence will help tie together the dwarf and Necromancer stories

The Nazgul will be present (a stuntman involved in the film stated that he'd been performing "ringwraiths", which would suggest that there will be more than the single Witch-king cameo we saw in An Unexpected Journey. And as we know from the released scene in the High Fells, all nine of the Nazgul tombs are empty.

Galadriel's promise to Gandalf, that if he needs her she will assist him, will probably be upheld -- potentially with the results for Dol Guldur being Galadriel "throwing down its walls and laying bare its pits" as in the Legendarium in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Though, from the general appearance of the fortress, one wonders if she may not have done so already.

We've also heard that Gandalf will be captured (or even incapacitated), and at one point will be rescued by Radagast and/or Galadriel.

All of these seem as though they could play into the Battle of Dol Guldur, or events immediately pre-preceding it.

However, there may be much more the Dol Guldur story than what has been established -- elements will be revealed as the narrative expands in The Desolation of Smaug.

Could Sauron be the "big bad" of the Desolation of Smaug?



0-lotr-sauron In my opinion, from what little we know -- Peter Jackson may ultimately cast the Necromancer/Sauron as the "big bad" again in The Hobbit, with Smaug and Azog as a potential ally and a captain, respectively. Orcs and dragons owe their existence and their allegiance to the Dark Lords of Middle-earth -- both Sauron and Sauron's master, Morgoth.

Could The Desolation of Smaug reveal that Sauron is moving to assail the Free Peoples from Dol Guldur, with the aid of Azog and the potential assistance of Smaug? The recent movie tie-in book Desolation of Smaug Annual revealed that Azog had destroyed the Beornings, and that he is attempting to prevent Thorin from reaching the Lonely Mountain.

Is Sauron beginning to destabilize the North-east around his domain, and trying to ensure that Smaug remain exactly where he is so that the Dark Lord can obtain the allegiance of the worm? And then, there are the rumors that Sauron may return and even raise Smaug for The Battle of the Five Armies in There and Back Again.

Benedict Cumberbatch has mentioned that he has a part to play in "The Five Legions War". But these are remain simply rumors and speculation for now.

Just how close or far away from the mark these theories are depend on:

A. How closely Azog is associated with the Necromaner is The Desolation of Smaug

B. How the new players in The Desolation of Smaug (Beorn, the Wood-elves, the Lake-men) fit into the Necromancer story -- if at all.



Slavery, trademark of the Dark Lords



[caption id="attachment_78695" align="alignright" width="300"]Stephen Fry is the Master of Lake-town. Stephen Fry is the Master of Lake-town.[/caption] We know from the early advertising and interviews that Azog's band will pursue the dwarves through the Woodland Realm and into Lake-town. Will Azog personify the presence of the Necromancer, bringing these new locales and the supporting cast into the storyline?

In particular, something which has not been revealed currently is whether or not the Lake-men, and in particular Bard or the Master of Lake-town, figure in the Necromancer story.

Stephen Fry stated in a 2012 interview that Bard is "heroic" and "rides and hunts" in the vicinity of Esgaorth. But what is Bard "hunting"? Food? Or something else? We already know that Legolas and Tauriel will fight the Necromancer's spiders, at the very least.

Are other fell creatures lurking in the vicinity of the Riving Running, and being kept away from the people of Lake-town by Bard? What is he doing, bow and arrow in hand, when he finds Bilbo and the Dwarves drawing close to Esgaroth?

Then there's the recent reveal from the 2014 annual that Alfrid, a "very creepy" man of Lake-town, is in fact ostensibly a "slave" to the Master? Slavery is a trademark state of the Dark Lords, Morgoth and Sauron.

Indeed, look for any trace of slavery or thralldom in The Hobbit or The Lord of the Rings, and Sauron or Saruman are responsible (save the Army of the Dead, who are arguably not acting of their own free will, though they are forced into service by Aragorn with promise of eventual freedom rather than through the oppression of his enemies).

Already it seems that Stephen Fry's Master of Lake-town might be a human analogue for Smaug -- but might he be an even darker character, possibly purposely ignoring the rise of the Necromancer (or even being a slave to Sauron himself)?

Or is his simply the corrupt politician that he was in the novel?

Bard, Beorn and Azog -- a spiders' web of events



[caption id="attachment_78004" align="alignright" width="239"]Bard the Bowman. Bard the Bowman.[/caption] We also know Azog's orcs will attack both a group of Wood-elves, and invade Lake-town in The Desolation of Smaug. Evidently Bard's daughter, Tilda, will be injured by an Orc, but healed by Tauriel. Bard initially does not have a position of authority in Lake-town; will this give him the freedom to hunt the creatures of Dol Guldur, or the orcs whose attack endangers Tilda?

Beorn will have an animosity of Azog. According to the 2014 annual, he hates Azog wiping out the other shape-shifters in Middle-earth -- in fact, Beorn only gives Thorin's company shelter when he learns they are being pursued by Azog.

Legolas and Tauriel will fight both the Necromancer's spiders as revealed in interviews and a LEGO playset (the same spiders Radagast discovered came from the Hill of Sorcery in An Unexpected Journey), and of course, Azog's hunters; and Bard will encounter the Gundabad Orcs at least once.

If Azog is under the command of, or at least allied with, Sauron, all of these characters will play a part in combating the Necromancer's fell creatures. It has become apparent that Bard and the elves have more to do than in the book -- as does Beorn, according to Peter Jackson.

Is there some Maia pulling all the strings?



Does this "something more" include a part in the Necromancer story proper, or will it simply involve the aforementioned battle scenes?

According to Peter Jackson's recent interview with Empire, The Desolation of Smaug will contain multiple story-threads -- the dwarves, the Lake-men, the Wood-elves, the orcs; will Sauron be the common presence who binds these stories together, a-la The Lord of the Rings? And who in the extensive ensemble will be present at the Battle of Dol Guldur (other than the wizards and presumably Galadriel)?

Time will tell.



And what of Saruman the Wise?



[caption id="attachment_65781" align="alignright" width="300"]Peter Jackson's Saruman in The Hobbit will supposedly be 'unfallen'. Peter Jackson's Saruman in The Hobbit will supposedly be 'unfallen'.[/caption] Finally there's a wildcard -- Saruman. Known as an antagonist in The Lord of the Rings, in An Unexpected Journey he appears to be still one of The Wise of the Free Peoples, if haughty and generally dismissive of others' opinions. However, returning once again to the old Bridge Direct descriptions:

The venerable and mighty Saruman, with four other magicians to the Guardians of Middle Earth (sic) that will help the world of order and balance. Above all, Saruman the fate of the free nations arranged according to his discretion. As head of the White Council, he fears with growing unease that Gandalf the Grey and Thorin Oakenshield could mess up his careful calculations. Saruman is indeed very old and wise out there, but according to its underlying weakness, and lusts for power - a greed that ultimately produce the most deadly of all Covenants.


Are these passing references to Saruman's treachery in the original film trilogy? Or, as in Tolkien's writings, has Saruman already fallen into evil and plotting against our heroes?

Whatever the case, it is entirely possible that the Necromancer story will involve more than Gandalf and Radagast simply poking around the High Fells and Dol Guldur. As Peter Jackson once explained -- the films will frame the story amidst the greater "geopolitical" happenings of the period.

"Geopolitical" meaning that greater attention will be paid to the involved cultures/realms, and the characters therein.

Potentially, this expansion will include the most important geopolitical events that occur in The Hobbit: those concerning Sauron's strongholds and presence in the north-east which later informed the entire tale told in The Lord of the Rings itself.

Captain Salt has been a Tolkien fan since childhood when he played Gloin in a stage production of The Hobbit though as there were only about eight dwarves, he was given other dwarves’ dialogue as well, resulting in a rather strange Gloin who at times talked to himself in a Gollum-ish manner. He’s also volunteered through the years at other film sites and has written for (minor) entertainment publications.

The views presented in this article are his own and don’t necessarily represent TheOneRing.net or other staff.


morro91
Bree

Sep 10 2013, 2:53pm

Post #2 of 24 (506 views)
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Nice!! [In reply to] Can't Post

Something you forgot about Saruman, in LOTR it is said "it was by the devices of Saruman that we drove him from Dol Guldur"

But nice article!!

I certainly think people expecting things to go along the lines of the books, should perhaps get prepared. Be Prepared!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2013, 3:15pm

Post #3 of 24 (525 views)
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The book [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as the whole siege of Dol Guldur, very little was actually written. It was never described in great detail, so Jackson's got some leeway there. What IS known is that the Necromancer fled from them rather than stay and fight, and that Saruman's "devices" were instrumental in some way. That's about all we know.

But the idea of a resurrected Smaug at the Bo5A is ABSURD.


Remus
Lorien

Sep 10 2013, 4:36pm

Post #4 of 24 (471 views)
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Nice article [In reply to] Can't Post

As being a huge and big fan of Sauron. I appreciate this article. Thank you.


I hope we see Sauron fight and talk at least more than 2-3 lines. Maybe arguing with Gandalf. I keep my fingers crossed and i pray!


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2013, 4:57pm

Post #5 of 24 (452 views)
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If Necro wouldhave been able to resurrect dead orcs(Azog)that would had reinforced the urgency ofdestroying the ring and would have made evident that an army of goshts wasntenoughagainst Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post

Pirate

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


Long Hammer
The Shire

Sep 10 2013, 5:11pm

Post #6 of 24 (429 views)
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I'm interested to see... [In reply to] Can't Post

how PJ handles this. I always thought one of the main hurdles in the hobbit movie is that when the book was written - the Necromancer was just a character, it wasn't until later that he was turned in to Sauron. So it is difficult to develop him when the entire audience knows who he really is.

All that being said - I don't see Smaug and Sauron being linked. I think they will stay true to the book in that the Dwarves' quest is to regain their home and obviously Smaug wants to keep the treasure. Except for the white council and Sauron - everyone else's motivation for fighting is revenge or wanting a share of the money. The only wildcard is what the connection is between Sauron and Azog. Azog would have beef with the dwarves on his own and I don't see why Sauron would care about the dwarves unless he just didn't want them to kill Smaug so in fact he could use him.

One other thought is that Gandalf hints that someone else besides the party knows what they are up to and it does seem like the orcs having been hunting them from the beginning.


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 10 2013, 5:48pm

Post #7 of 24 (422 views)
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Necromencer was boring in the books [In reply to] Can't Post

If I remember correctly, the Necromencer was not described in the book...only that Gandalf had to deal with him. Pretty lazy writing if you ask me. I am glad PJ is expanding on the Necromencer's role. I called it from the beginning that Azog was tied to the Necromencer and Dol Guldur. Not sure if Azog was raised from the dead, but he probably owes the Necromencer something, and so now he is his servant. Azog is hunting Thorin for both revenge, and to stop them from reaching Smaug (under the orders of the Necromencer).

In regards to who else knows about the quest, that will be Thrain. Thrain gave the map and key to Gandalf before he met whatever caused him to disappear. Thrain knows that Thorin will one day go back and claim Erebor. One can assume Bolg (the torturerer) got the information out of Thrain (maybe the Necromencer was also looking for the map and key), and it is Azog's job to find Thorin and the key/map.

In regards to Smaug and Sauron, Gandalf's concern was established in the Appendix and in the Unfinished Tales that the Necromencer may bring Smaug to his side, hence why he too wanted to go on the Quest for Erebor.


Not_the_beard
The Shire

Sep 10 2013, 5:57pm

Post #8 of 24 (427 views)
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The Palantir [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think it might be possible that the Palantir is found in the ruins of Dol Guldur? I doubt this is cannon, but it might be a nice tie in to Lord of the Rings. Also, having been found in Dol Guldur, it would give further connection between Saruman and Sauron and be a possible motivator for Saruman switching sides.


Long Hammer
The Shire

Sep 10 2013, 6:24pm

Post #9 of 24 (378 views)
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Thrain disappeared way before [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin makes it sound like Thrain was missing since the battle of Azirockthecasbah. That would have been way before Gandalf found him. I agree he would have figured Thorin would go back to the mountain - but the timing would be vague. This seems like someone knows what is going on since starting the plan. And dont forget somehow Sauruman knows what they are doing because that is why he called the meeting of the white council


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 10 2013, 6:31pm

Post #10 of 24 (384 views)
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Balin doesn't know... [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably in the midst of Battle, Thrain was lost and no one in the company saw him. You would figure Thorin would spend more time looking for his father... PJ and team did say Thrain will be fleshed out more in DOS, so we will get our answers soon. Pretty sure Thrain gave the keys to Gandalf before he went wherever he went (my guess was into Moria to finish off Azog, only to be captured and brought to Dol Guldur).


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2013, 7:50pm

Post #11 of 24 (357 views)
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Not exactly "lazy writing"... [In reply to] Can't Post

At the time the book was written, the story was a standalone adventure not connected to any kind of wider tale. Originally, Tolkien's sole purpose for including the Necromancer was to draw Gandalf away from the group so Bilbo would have room to emerge as a hero, instead of having Gandalf repeatedly rescue the group at the last minute like he had been doing up until then. The Necromancer was more a simple literary device rather than an actual character in the story. He wasn't meant to be fleshed-out; not at the time anyway.

In any case, I too am glad that PJ is expanding on the Necromancer and the attack on Dol Guldur - it's an important event in Middle-earth history, and a good way to link to LotR. I think some of the specifics of the subplot could have been handled so as to be more in-line with canon, but whatever. Let's see how it plays out first.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 10 2013, 7:52pm)


Loresilme
Valinor


Sep 10 2013, 7:54pm

Post #12 of 24 (330 views)
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lol [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
since the battle of Azirockthecasbah


good one Cool


nhui06
Rivendell

Sep 10 2013, 7:56pm

Post #13 of 24 (337 views)
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Thanks for the clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe cause Gandalf was my favorite character, but I always hated that part where Gandalf just comes back and tell everyone he was gone because he had to deal with a Necromencer... why would the readers care about that if they did not know anything about the Necromencer before hand? Oh well.


Old Pilgrim
Rivendell


Sep 11 2013, 6:04am

Post #14 of 24 (266 views)
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Important role, but not the main one [In reply to] Can't Post

It is good that the filmmakers expand the story around the Necromancer but he should never be the main figure in the Hobbit nor he shouldn't be connected with the Smaug. Gandalf story and Bilbo story should remain two separate stories with two different enemies, however their should always be a sence of danger that the Necromancer and Smaug will join their forces. Since Bilbo is the main hero in the Hobbit his story should be more important while Gandalf story should be more dark and mysterious with questions that need to be answered. Azog may be working for the Necromancer, but expanding his role over the Master of Lake-Town and Battle of the Five Armies is just ridiculous in my opinion. His story in the Hobbit should end with the attack on Dol Guldur and his escape to Mordor. Whenever that happens.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Sep 11 2013, 6:26am

Post #15 of 24 (254 views)
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Couldn't agree more... [In reply to] Can't Post

What's with all this wanting to tie everything into the Necromancer? Is it a Hollywood convention that everything needs to be wrapped up in neat bundles, with no loose ends? The Master was an inherently weak, selfish character who succumbed to the dragon sickness and abused his position of authority...no need to read anything more into it than that.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 11 2013, 6:43am

Post #16 of 24 (263 views)
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Azog may never have been independent of Sauron even in the text. Recall that after The Balrog empties [In reply to] Can't Post

Moria of the Dwarves, Sauron eventually sends his own servants to populate it. Azog likely would have either been one of these, or a descendant of one.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 11 2013, 3:31pm

Post #17 of 24 (220 views)
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Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that in Tolkien's legendarium, Saruman was already on his way to falling into evil. He was already keeping secrets from the other members of the White Council and deliberately lying about the status of the One Ring. He had likely already begun his breeding experiments that resulted in his Half-orcs. Of couse, Saruman may have justified this to himself as coming to understand the methods and mind-set of the Enemy, along with his belief that the Ring could not be entrusted to anyone of lesser status then himself.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


vexx801
Rivendell


Sep 11 2013, 6:23pm

Post #18 of 24 (194 views)
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Ooooo! [In reply to] Can't Post

I like that idea, even if it isn't canon! I can picture a scene after the destruction of Dol Guldur where Saruman wanders off and happens to see the Palantir - and given PJ has shown similar images from LotR in The Hobbit: AUJ (prime example: the ring falling onto Frodo's hand, same case with Bilbo), we may even see him finding it in a watery area.

If nothing else, this would keep the surprise of Saruman's treachery for those who have yet to see LotR, yet at the same time it would be enough of a foreshadowing for people "in the know" to make the fanboys (like myself) fairly giddy.

Good on ya, mate.


Lio
Lorien


Sep 12 2013, 12:49am

Post #19 of 24 (164 views)
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I hope they keep the Necromancer's role subtle (and no zombies please!) [In reply to] Can't Post

There's almost certainly a connection between Azog and the Necromancer (due to what's been revealed about Bolg, and Azog knowing both Black Speech and Orkish). However I really don't think Azog is undead or anything of the sort. At least, I hope not. Tongue We don't know what his connection to the Necromancer is yet, but I hope they don't go over the top with it. I like to think the two are working together for some mutual benefit. Perhaps with the Necromancer having been interested in reclaiming Thrain's ring, and providing some means to help Azog or Bolg hunt him down?

At the same time, I don't think the Necromancer ordered Azog to do the things he does any more than he commanded Smaug to take over Erebor or the Balrog to drive the Dwarves out of Moria. The story is fine without him pulling all the strings. I hope they don't reduce its complexity by expanding the Necromancer's role too much.

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


kbdiggity
Rivendell

Sep 12 2013, 1:47am

Post #20 of 24 (170 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

zombie orcs, zombie dragons, and Sauron being the big baddie (even though in LoTR films we were told he can't yet take a form.)


Some interesting fan fiction right there.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 12 2013, 9:44pm

Post #21 of 24 (128 views)
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Completely agree [In reply to] Can't Post

ESPECIALLY about the zombies. Sauron never raises anyone from the dead in the books. Even in film universe, it would look silly. When the audience gets confirmation on who the Necromancer is, most folks will remember that Sauron was not reanimating dead bodies in LotR. So why would he be doing that here, when he was actually weaker? Why should Sauron have the power to raise the dead in The Hobbit, but not in LotR, when he was supposedly using everything he had at his disposal to destroy his enemies? The Necromancer WAS NOT a "necromancer" in the literal definition of the term.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 13 2013, 2:24am

Post #22 of 24 (126 views)
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Oh yes, totally!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the misnomer should be obvious enough, or at least made clear by the end. "Technically" he did recall the Ulari, but they were more 'imprisoned', or 'hiding' than they were 'dead'.


Elskidor
Rohan

Sep 22 2013, 11:12pm

Post #23 of 24 (73 views)
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I think they are dead [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe the entire reason why they showed Sting stop glowing in Riddles, and while near Azog was done entirely on purpose. It was an obvious hint to me, and I'd be shocked if it doesn't end up turning out this way.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 24 2013, 1:20am

Post #24 of 24 (89 views)
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We will see... [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog, could be, but I was specifically talking about the Ringwraiths. The books say that they are "neither living, nor dead", or something to that effect....

Anything past that is open to interpretation, until we see the rest of the movies.

 
 

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