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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
kili and tauriel in dale?

boldog
Rohan

Sep 8 2013, 11:35am

Post #1 of 23 (1369 views)
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kili and tauriel in dale? Can't Post

I was watching the latest video blog and I noticed a scene at 2:12 of aidan and evy with peter Jackson.
it is probably a big assumption based on a small scene, but could this be possibly just before some shoot of them two together? they were both in their costumes so it could be? anyway what do you all think? this is just my assumption that it may be a scene with just the two....

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Shagrat
Gondor

Sep 8 2013, 1:00pm

Post #2 of 23 (711 views)
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I truly hope not [In reply to] Can't Post

I can live with a one-sided, jokey crush on Kili's part but this would hint at something more, which is frankly absurd. I trust it's just coincidence they're near each on the set, or they're part of a bigger ensemble in the scene.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 8 2013, 10:18pm

Post #3 of 23 (576 views)
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Love is never absurd [In reply to] Can't Post

BlushTongue Actually, of all the major changes, this bothers me the LEAST. Kili and Tauriel can have a deleted sex scene for all I care. They could kiss right in Thranduil's dungeon if it meant Azog going back to dead, The Balrog remaining the chief reason the Dwarves could not reclaim Moria, there being no ambiguity about whether Wizards have to answer to Elves, and The Witch-King having been routed by Glorfindel at Fornost.

In Reply To
I can live with a one-sided, jokey crush on Kili's part but this would hint at something more, which is frankly absurd. I trust it's just coincidence they're near each on the set, or they're part of a bigger ensemble in the scene.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


LordotRings93
Rohan


Sep 9 2013, 12:04am

Post #4 of 23 (526 views)
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But Azog's a badass [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't want Azog to be dead. His character was awesome, in my eyes. The first villain I've ever cared for in Middle-earth. But different tastes, I guess, and I'm not that much of a purist: I welcome changes to the source material sometimes since it adds a little something and makes it a surprise to me. I'd hate to just watch what I've read in a book word-for-word. But again, different tastes, eh? Wink

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 9 2013, 1:45pm

Post #5 of 23 (477 views)
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Would have loved to see most of that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there is still plenty of time for a Balrog reference, seeing as there is supposed to be more Azanulbizar footage, and we won't get any news of Balin wishing to re-take Moria until the third film. I wouldn't count that out just yet.

Glorfindel, it seems, has been omitted completely, and there's even a rumor that his prophecy will be given to Tauriel. I really don't mind the omission of Glorfindel as much as some other things, because in LotR, he shows up once and we never hear from him again (like our Radagast), and he isn't mentioned at all in connection with TH or The Quest of Erebor. I think the time to show Glorfindel should have been in LotR, but at this point I chalk it up to a missed opportunity. The whole restructuring of the history of the Nazgul though, bothers me a bit. I get that Jackson wanted some quickie way of showing that evil was again on the march, but by inventing this High Fells business, just about everything the Nazgul did in-between the fall of Angmar and the War of the Ring has been thrown in the trash - the taking of Minas Ithil, the capture and likely torment of Earnur the last King of Gondor, the preparation of Mordor and rebuilding of Barad-dur in anticipation of the return of their master - all gone in favor of a few hundred years of entombment, a scenario which in itself suffers from some degree of implausibility.

As for the whole wizard/elf dynamic, I thought Saruman looked firmly in charge of the Council - yes, Galadriel admonished him for not allowing Gandalf to speak, but at the end of the meeting, Saruman basically told them there was no proof, and even Galadriel knew there was nothing she could do about it. Yes, Gandalf should have been portrayed as more headstrong than he was. But Saruman overriding everyone else at the Council I felt was appropriate.

Azog, well...I think most know my thoughts on him.

Now to the topic at hand. Kili and Tauriel...a one-sided crush I would be fine with, even though it does sort of cheapen Gimli's unlikely reverence for Galadriel in my eyes. But an out-and-out romance sub-plot is, IMO, unnecessary, cliched, and inappropriate. There doesn't have to be a love story, just for the sake of having a love story. Anyway, it's only a rumor, and the fact that Turner and Lilly were photographed on set talking to PJ means nothing.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 9 2013, 1:54pm)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 9 2013, 11:19pm

Post #6 of 23 (406 views)
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It changes the entire history. The war was fought with HIM as the goal of the dwarves. [In reply to] Can't Post

They were an extremely Patriarchal society. Dwarves would sometimes spend their lives trying to avenge a wrong done to a father. Thror was the symbolic father of the race, and the heir of the Eldest of the race, Durin. Durin's reincarnation was slain by a Balrog. The dwarves had no hope of vengeance against such a Dark Power until another Power came to face him. But Azog? Azog was an orc. Big, strong, nasty, but an orc still, and dwarves knew ways of dealing with orcs. The desecration of Thror infuriated ALL the houses of the dwarves. It was one of the few violations capable of bringing together armies from all 7 houses.


"For this insult to the heir of the eldest of their race could not be borne. . . they sacked, one by one, every stronghold of the orcs they could find, from Gundabad to The Gladden, and they hunted for Azog in every den under the mountains."

When Nain, Thror's nephew, arrived with his army they were chanting Azog's name as they marched. And then his slaying, and the iconic, terrifying encounter with THe Balrog. . .. these movies sacrificed GREAT EPIC moments, for one badass orc, who could still have been featured, and whose later functions could have been well carried out by Bolg.

In Reply To
I wouldn't want Azog to be dead. His character was awesome, in my eyes. The first villain I've ever cared for in Middle-earth. But different tastes, I guess, and I'm not that much of a purist: I welcome changes to the source material sometimes since it adds a little something and makes it a surprise to me. I'd hate to just watch what I've read in a book word-for-word. But again, different tastes, eh? Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 10 2013, 12:29am

Post #7 of 23 (410 views)
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What?! No way! Now THAT is absurd [In reply to] Can't Post

They're giving the prophecy to that Sue Tauriel? They o omitted Glorfindel entirely, can't they just let sleeping dogs lie? Omit the prophecy too, dang it! That, I can live with. Omit Glorfindel, omit everything that has to do with him, including the prophecy. Giving it to Tauriel is just blasphemy. Someone knock me out. I'm sorry, but I really like Glorfindel. Next to Legolas, Elrond, Galadriel, Finrond, Galdor, Thranduil, and a few other elves (mentioned in The Silmarillion), Glorfindel is one of my favorite elves.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 1:11am

Post #8 of 23 (395 views)
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Well I've heard a rumor regarding that... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not sure how true it is though. Would not surprise me.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 10 2013, 9:38am

Post #9 of 23 (360 views)
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There's no truth behind it. I wouldn't worry. / [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 9:45am

Post #10 of 23 (357 views)
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Nope, not even a rumour... [In reply to] Can't Post

it was simply suggested by a poster on here, because we've all been trying to wrack our brains over PB's quote that Tauriel was somehow born from the thread or germ of an idea left over from LotR (possibly Appendices only?) that they didn't have room for in the original trilogy.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 10 2013, 10:24am

Post #11 of 23 (363 views)
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Current status of the idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

As the (self-styled?) Tauriel expert around here, I've been trying to puzzle out the story arc that PB alluded to in her comments. Right now I'm about 60%-40% that Tauriel's story arc is based on Nimrodel, with the 40% being the Witch King prophecy. The arguments pro and con go as follows:

Nimrodel: hers is the story of a romance with an elf prince, who searches for her in vain, and then is lost at in a shipwreck. Nimrodel leaves her home after the Dwarves "release a great evil" in the mountains (Balrog?).

PRO: Involvement with an elf prince (Legolas) who goes searching for her (as the DOS Annual suggests); Nimrodel was also a sylvan elf; leaving her home after Dwarves release "something evil" (in this case Azog and his orcs).

CON: No obvious reason for Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens to have wanted to tell her story in LOTR; most of Nimrodel's story is in Unfinished Tales, not LOTR where there is only Legolas' song (but maybe they mean to have him "reminiscing" for a lost love).

The second possibility is the Witch King prophecy.

PRO: We know the Witch King (+ other Nazgul) have been resurrected and will presumably play a part in the Dol Guldur story line, so it makes sense that the prophecy should be spoken; original story involves an elf (Glorfindel); female-to-female synchronicity with Eowyn; FW and PB would probably have liked to include it in LOTR.

CON: Tauriel may not be at Dol Guldur; she has no reason to have the ability to foretell the future; the Witch King scene is not really a story arc as such.

HOWEVER: If the Witch King prophecy is what PB is alluding to, it would not have to be Tauriel who makes the prophecy. Instead she could take Earnur's role, while Galadriel takes Glorfindel's role. I speculated before that it could go something like this: Tauriel helps fight orcs at Dol Guldur; near end of battle the Witch King appears; Tauriel promptly sticks him with a half dozen arrows, to no effect. Said Witch King, now looking like a black porcupine, just laughs his evil laugh as in the book. Galadriel then says something like "Stay your hand, daughter of Mirkwood; far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of a man". So relax folks, it might well be Galadriel, not Tauriel, who actually speaks the prophecy, if this is what PB is hinting at.

Those are my two lines of thought at present. If anyone has another possible suggested story line "involving and elf" and mentioned in LOTR, I'd love to discuss it.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2013, 12:34pm

Post #12 of 23 (344 views)
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Other idea [In reply to] Can't Post

My recollection is that for Fellowship, scenes were shot (but not used even for the EE) of Moria Goblins chasing the Fellowship into Lothlorien, resulting in a skirmish in which the Elves defeated these Goblins and drove them out of the woods.

It is sounding like there are some parallels to this already in DoS (we see Azog and Elves fighting in the trailer, and it seems likely this ensues because Azog pursues Thorin's Company into Mirkwood.) This could be what the filmmakers meant - they realized they could do their idea of an Orc/Elf fight in the forest with the Orcs pursuing Our Heroes, and Tauriel was born out of this idea, because the Elves would need a leader in this scenario. In other words, rather than reprising a character of the legendarium who is fairly remote from either the Hobbit or Rings story like Glorfindel or Nimrodel, Tauriel in AUJ is taking movie Haldir's FotR role in this specific unused scene.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 10 2013, 1:22pm

Post #13 of 23 (331 views)
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Interesting Idea [In reply to] Can't Post

I had heard of this idea of DOS's orcs / elves fight be based on the scene that was shot but never used in FOTR, but didn't connect it to Tauriel. Pro: it involves elves, and matches something we know will happen in DOS, and Haldir could be considered as a sort of captain of elf guards. Con: Haldir doesn't have much of a story arc at all, and isn't even at the elves--orcs skirmish mentioned in FOTR.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 2:23pm

Post #14 of 23 (310 views)
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Thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Daniel and Eleniel for clearing that up. I'm sure that would have caused a mini-outrage on these boards if it turned out to be true Tongue


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 2:34pm

Post #15 of 23 (317 views)
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I guess... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Galadriel might be acceptable in my eyes, although I'd still just prefer they left the prophecy alone at this point.

As for Tauriel, I really never minded them making the Captain of Thranduil's guard into a woman, and I never minded them expanding on the role a bit. I'm a little worried that Tauriel is going to take up far too much screen time for what was such a minor book character, but I'll wait until I see the film.

On the other hand, I really don't agree with using omitted LotR material to spice up The Hobbit. If it didn't make the cut into LotR, just leave it at that, I say. I'd rather Jackson didn't start treating the two stories as if they are interchangeable, and take whatever he wants out of LotR and stick into The Hobbit.


DanielLB
Immortal


Sep 10 2013, 2:48pm

Post #16 of 23 (320 views)
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The prophecy and Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf says in the ROTK film:


Quote
Sauron has yet to reveal his deadliest servant . . . The one who will lead Morder's armies in war, the one they say no living man can kill.


I've emphasized the "they" part. If they were going to include the "prophecy" why does it even have to be an Elf? Since they've changed it that much, "they" could refer to anyone. Perhaps the Witch-King himself reveals to Gandalf that he cannot be killed by a living man. "They" could be the Ringwraiths?



Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 3:05pm

Post #17 of 23 (303 views)
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I forgot to add... [In reply to] Can't Post

that Philippa explicitly says that the omitted storyline from LotR involved "an Elf..."


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Sep 10 2013, 3:12pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Sep 10 2013, 5:15pm

Post #18 of 23 (299 views)
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If not Haldir, then Arwen? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, Haldir would not have been in that scene? I did not realize that, I assumed he would have, as he was the leader of the Elves who met the Fellowship when they entered Lorien.

In that case, another thought....we also know at some point Liv Tyler/Arwen was shot fighting at Helm's Deep, before the filmmakers decided that the whole Aragorn-dream-sequence and Arwen-leaving-to-take-ship-for-Valinor-story were superior ways to keep her and her connection to Aragorn alive in the later films. How, I wonder, did Elrond feel about this? My guess is, he did not approve. That would be similar to what we have heard about Tauriel in publicity materials - that she is headstrong and runs off to do what she thinks best, and that she disagrees with Thranduil's non-involvement policy (and will wind up fighting Orcs in Laketown and similar perhaps against his orders).

It's also more of a storyline, involving a conflict of two or more characters (also possibly enmeshing Legolas) that could have a resolution in TABA when spoilerish book events bring Thranduil to the realization that, yes, it is his fight.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 10 2013, 6:20pm

Post #19 of 23 (290 views)
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Dragging the prophecy into The Hobbit is absurd, not giving it to Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

The prophecy wasn't that memorable in LOTR movies for anyone but rabid fans to know what it connects to. No offense but the Witch King slaying was such a disposable generic TV fantasy scene. It should have been epic but execution was atrocious. So since it definitely didn't go down in history as one of movie's defining moments (for casual viewers), I see no reason why it should be dragged into these movie, even as a die-hard fan services. Fans of movies who didn't read books often asked if Aragorn would be in The Hobbit. They never asked if any reference to Witch King or Eowyn or another minor character would be made or any of them return. So I honestly don't know what they are trying to achieve with this.

That said, Tauriel is NOT a problem here. Dragging the prophecy itself into this is a problem regardless who says it. But, of course ,naysayers can never run out of ammo against Tauriel. Mad

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Sep 10 2013, 8:08pm

Post #20 of 23 (265 views)
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I agree, it doesn't have to refer to an elf... [In reply to] Can't Post

...if it's not Glorfindel, it could be anybody at this point.

One thing about the movie portrayal of it that bugs me is that Gandalf says "...no living man can kill", when the actual prophecy had nothing to do with who could kill the Witch-king, but rather who would end up killing the Witch-king. The movie doesn't mention that it was actually Merry's enchanted blade of Westernesse that made the Witch-king vulnerable, not the fact that Eowyn was a woman. Merry, or rather Merry's dagger, was actually more important in killing the Witch-king than Eowyn was, at least book-wise.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 10 2013, 8:08pm)


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 11 2013, 12:16am

Post #21 of 23 (235 views)
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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

for pointing out Merry's importance in the slaying.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Sep 11 2013, 12:38am

Post #22 of 23 (229 views)
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To me, both is bad [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to agree with you that the prophecy itself has nothing do with the Hobbit, and should not be dragged into the film. Like I already said, they omitted Glorfindel, they should just omit everything that has tio do with him, including the prophecy.
I admit I'm anti-Tauriel, but the whole prophecy thing was not ammo against her. It was a valid point brought up by some. It would be like someone is doing a cover of a song, for example, "Beds Are Burning" by Midnight Oil, which is about giving land back to the aboriginals of Australia, and changing the lyrics so that it's about promiscuity. It would be changing the real meaning (not to mention message).


Symbelmine
Rohan


Sep 20 2013, 9:17pm

Post #23 of 23 (208 views)
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Yes, there is going to be a scene with just the two... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an article theonering.net shared some time ago.
Its written by a girl who visited the set. She says:
"So we were back to watching the little screen thingy and it was Evangeline and Aidan doing stuff, (cant tell you what doe~) And that was really neat...."
http://elvenbutterflies.tumblr.com/post/54881582834/the-moment-weve-all-been-waiting-for-my-day-with

 
 

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