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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
High Fells: cutted out again?!
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 5 2013, 3:26pm

Post #26 of 47 (202 views)
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It's taken as read that these threads are speculative [In reply to] Can't Post

at least until we see the next film. Still, Gandalf has to go to the High Fells at some point. If they're where people are saying, then his only real opportunity is before he gets to the mountains. If the errand is so urgent that he abandons the dwarves (plus as yet inexperienced and uproven burglar) to face the mountains alone, then surely what he finds out in the tombs will be of the utmost urgency - he would need to let people know, hence must stop at Rivendell (although if he's there with Mr Mallet, he could send him instead - which I had forgotten about). Anyway, he's still got to track the dwarves who have a major headstart on him. How does he do this? He has to work out they've been captured. How does he do that? He has to then either get through the secret entrance, or spend time going to alternative way in. How does he do that? How does he know where to find them, once inside? How does he catch up with them fast enough to rescue them - especially as he doesn't even know they've been captured, so wouldn't have had a mad dash to save them? The scenario throws up a whole lot of questions that wouldn't have arisen if the book had been followed more closely. So in that sense, it's more complicated.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 5 2013, 4:00pm

Post #27 of 47 (203 views)
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No, Gandalf wouldn't have returned to Rivendell yet [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's a half real (Coldfells) and half made-up (tombs) location, with a changed name, supporting a major plot point that is entirely out of line with the books. It sounds like the film-makers didn't have the confidence to stick with the simpler solutions provided by Tolkien. As someone who knows the books, this, along with the Azog stuff, makes the plot seem more convoluted and contrived than it needs to be - henc the issues of timing and distance. How did Gandalf find the captured dwarves, who had disappeared through an invisible crack in the ground, for example? How did he manage to visit the Coldfells, return to Rivendell to report what he'd found, then catch up with the dwarves, happen to find the exact same cave, discover the secret crack, find a way in and rescue them???



I would imagine that Gandalf would be capable of tracking the company magically. Especially since he already knows the approximate route that they must be taking. I am also going to guess that he and Radagast do not find sufficient proof of the Enemy at the Cold Fells to satisfy Saruman and the Council and so Gandalf does not return to Rivendell at this time. Either that, or he knows that he cannot spare any more time away from Thorin & Co. if he wants to have a chance to rescue them.

In any event, Gandalf's present-day visit to Dol Guldur won't occur until after he leaves the company again at Mirkwood Forest.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Sep 5 2013, 4:08pm

Post #28 of 47 (192 views)
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timeline [In reply to] Can't Post

The most likely,after collecting the most convincing arguments should be:

-arriving at Beorn
-some interaction/discussion with Beorn
-Gandalf leaves for the High Fells
-he and Radagast head to Dol Guldur after that

The only question to me is now;:

How does Radagast get there ? Will we have a scene showing that?!


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 5 2013, 4:21pm

Post #29 of 47 (196 views)
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It's a very long way [In reply to] Can't Post

from the edge of Mirkwood to the Cold Fells. A double crossing of the mountains, and he has to get to a White Council meeting and arrange the attack. Then they have to carry it out, which means trouping down to Dol Guldor with an army - which takes time to sort out. Then he's got to go all the way to the top of Mirkwood and meet up with Thranduil and get to the mountain.

He's going to need a sit down and a cup of tea after all that.


In Reply To
The most likely,after collecting the most convincing arguments should be:

-arriving at Beorn
-some interaction/discussion with Beorn
-Gandalf leaves for the High Fells
-he and Radagast head to Dol Guldur after that

The only question to me is now;:

How does Radagast get there ? Will we have a scene showing that?!


"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Sep 5 2013, 4:29pm

Post #30 of 47 (186 views)
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audience [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right from our point view,the die hard Fans ^^

But as i said, i doubt the General audience will ask for what you pointed out...


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Sep 5 2013, 6:16pm

Post #31 of 47 (169 views)
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Probably true, [In reply to] Can't Post

although you could argue that, for example, leaving out Tolkien's explanation of the eagles' role in ME, for simplicity's sake, has created a degree of confusion and criticism from the non-book fans. Critics and film-goers are oftern quite astute at picking up plot holes, and DVDs and the internet have made things harder for directors. Ridley Scott probably thought he could get away with Prometheus, because of the spectacle or the acting or something.

Also I wouldn't like to be known as a die hard fan - the first one was just bearable, thanks to Alan Rickman, but I'm forced to watch the awful sequels every bl**dy Christmas.



In Reply To
You are right from our point view,the die hard Fans ^^

But as i said, i doubt the General audience will ask for what you pointed out...


"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 5 2013, 7:44pm

Post #32 of 47 (168 views)
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The High Fells has to take place before Goblin-town [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The most likely,after collecting the most convincing arguments should be:

-arriving at Beorn
-some interaction/discussion with Beorn
-Gandalf leaves for the High Fells
-he and Radagast head to Dol Guldur after that

The only question to me is now;:

How does Radagast get there ? Will we have a scene showing that?!



The High Fells, as part of Rhudaur, is west of the Misty Mountains. The only logical tme for Gandalf to explore it is on his way to catch up with the Dwarves after the company leaves Rivendell. Your timeline doesn't work if Gandalf has to cross the Mountains twice before he investigates Dol Guldur--especially if the Goblins are in a frenzy over the death of the Great Goblin. The only way it works is:

1. Thorin & Co. secretly leave Rivendell and begin to cross the Misty Mountains.
2. Gandalf and Radagast investigate the High Fells; afterwards, Gandalf follows the trail of the company.
3. The company is captured by Goblins; Bilbo escapes unnoticed and encounters Gollum.
4. Gandalf arrives in time to rescue the Dwarves; they escape with Bilbo following.
5. Thorin & Co. are treed by Azog and his Orcs only to be rescued by the Eagles.
6. The company meets Beorn and is allowed to rest and recover in Beorn's Halls.
7. Gandalf leaves the company at the Eaves of Mirkwood to investigate Dol Guldur.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Sep 5 2013, 8:30pm

Post #33 of 47 (150 views)
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well [In reply to] Can't Post

I've pointed out before why i think that they're going to handle it in an other way :-)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 5 2013, 8:43pm

Post #34 of 47 (147 views)
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Yes, you have... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've pointed out before why i think that they're going to handle it in an other way :-)



And I don't agree with your reasoning. Yes, logistics mean little in film because filmmakers cheat outrageously with space and time. However, realistically, it is just too time-consuming for Gandalf to travel from Mirkwood back to, and across, the Misty Mountains (avoiding Goblins) to investigate the High Fells, cross back over to further investigate Dol Guldur, to finally set his findings before the Council. Especially when the High Fells perfectly accounts for his activities while the company was crossing the mountains only to be captured by Goblins. There is no reason to make it more complicated than it has to be.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Sep 5 2013, 8:51pm

Post #35 of 47 (144 views)
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look [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont want to argue :-) we know that what you've said is totally true,no doubt !
Just tried to see it from the (possible) directors view. And because of the facts we got/saw so far. If the scene gets a decent voice over and cutted together that it fits, it can also be a pretty good flashback.

I'm just wondering because what we've seen so far didnt felt like one.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 5 2013, 8:55pm

Post #36 of 47 (141 views)
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Agree with this... [In reply to] Can't Post

I just cannot see Gandalf backtracking across the mountains, especially considering the fact that the group narrowly escaped with their hides. Going back over the mountains to investigate the Nazgul tombs, then over the mountains again to investigate Dol Guldur, is too much IMO. It's going to have to be a flashback...

...unless Jackson has moved the High Fells (and Rhudaur) to the eastern side of the mountains. Considering some of the other big revisions he's made, I wouldn't consider that outside the realm of possibility.


NoelGallagher
Rohan


Sep 5 2013, 8:59pm

Post #37 of 47 (134 views)
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your last statement [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I just cannot see Gandalf backtracking across the mountains, especially considering the fact that the group narrowly escaped with their hides. Going back over the mountains to investigate the Nazgul tombs, then over the mountains again to investigate Dol Guldur, is too much IMO. It's going to have to be a flashback...

...unless Jackson has moved the High Fells (and Rhudaur) to the eastern side of the mountains. Considering some of the other big revisions he's made, I wouldn't consider that outside the realm of possibility.


Isnt that unlikely since PJ is directing ;-)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Sep 5 2013, 9:13pm

Post #38 of 47 (126 views)
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backtracking and timelines [In reply to] Can't Post

We all seem to be forgetting something- Gandalf has much longer legs than the company does Wink

No doubt he would have been able to visit high fells, and make it to catch up to the company in time despite the slight delay.

We are supposed to have more GT in the EE's, and we don't know for sure how long the company was in GT.

Plus, I have no doubt that huge rainstorm delayed the company, whereas Gandalf may have had clear weather.

And he may have known another entrance to GT. Perhaps the path missing from the stone giants sequence led him to realize that the company took shelter in that particular cave, and it was easy to follow thereafter.

And if he does indeed hitch a ride with Raddy, then maybe Raddy took him through the mountains too, and I have no doubt that those Rhosgobel Rabbits could easily outdistance the dwarves!

I am inclined to think that high fells is actually a flashback or explanation, rather than leapfrogging Gandalf....


But then again, Legolas seemed to be rather directionally challenged, so it is possible that the filmmakers don't know their geography as well as one would like Tongue

I guess we will just have to wait til DOS to know for sure Smile

Race is meaningless. We all bleed red-no matter who or what we are. What matters is the heart. For each race has those with good hearts and those with bad hearts. You have a good heart. You do not deserve to die.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 5 2013, 9:16pm

Post #39 of 47 (129 views)
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Exactly... [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering some of the revisions we've already seen, changing the location of an obscure region like Rhudaur seems tame.

I still think it's going to be a flashback though. Didn't one of the AUJ tie-in books already say that Gandalf went to the High Fells after Rivendell?


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Sep 5 2013, 9:50pm

Post #40 of 47 (128 views)
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Yes, the Weta Chronicles... [In reply to] Can't Post

and the guy on the MordorCast video quotes from the page concerned:




Quote



"While Gandalf seeks answers beneath the mountains, Thorin tries to lead his company over them., and finds himself at the mercy of elemental forces both natural and not."



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 6 2013, 7:34am

Post #41 of 47 (105 views)
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Not sure that they are visible just because Radagast sees them. He is, after all, A Wizard [In reply to] Can't Post

and himself a creature of the Supernatural, indeed of a enchorial higher order than they. It is plausible that Radagast, existing to some extent in both worlds as did The High Elves, could percieve them as they are.

In Reply To

Quote
In the book, they just "appear" one year (2251 of the Second Age) with no further explanation. So for the movie they changed it to a simpler plot that anyone can understand: they were once evil men; they died; they were resurrected in their wraith state by the Necromancer.


As far as the books go, it was explained that the Nazgul never actually died, but rather due to the unnatural influence of Sauron's Ring over their rings, they lived so long that they physically "faded" from the living world, and existed, as you said, in a sort of in-between state. The descriptions and depictions of them in Jackson's own LotR trilogy were pretty consistent with this (Aragorn saying they were neither living nor dead, Gollum saying they could not be killed, their true forms only being visible when one is wearing the Ring).

For The Hobbit, by contrast, it looks like Jackson has gone and combined the Nazgul with barrow-wights. Now apparently they ARE dead, but reanimated, and are visible to the naked eye without cloaking themselves.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Sep 6 2013, 7:52am

Post #42 of 47 (97 views)
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I should add... [In reply to] Can't Post

that the Chronicles go on to state:




Quote

"The concept behind the High Fells was that the men of old had taken the defeated nine kings, the Nazgul, Sauron's chief servants, and sealed their remains in crypts that no one would possibly want to visit. It was no
shrine, but rather an indictment, like a prison for the dead."





"Remains" not "bodies" but even so, it makes no sense in accordance with canon or Aragorn's words from FotR.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Sep 6 2013, 8:12am

Post #43 of 47 (95 views)
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Mortal remains... [In reply to] Can't Post

In the actual movie, Galadriel does use the word "body": "The men of the North took his body, and all that he possessed..."


While the Nazgul having died as mortal men is not in accord with the Tolkien canon, I think it doesn't contradict Aragorn's speech in movie FOTR. His language was metaphorical: "...one by one falling into darkness. They are the Nazgul, Ringwraiths, neither living nor dead." That doesn't have to mean they never died a mortal death; it's more of a description of them falling under the evil spell of The Ring.




Quote
"Remains" not "bodies" but even so, it makes no sense in accordance with canon or Aragorn's words from FotR.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




(This post was edited by DwellerInDale on Sep 6 2013, 8:13am)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Sep 6 2013, 9:11am

Post #44 of 47 (83 views)
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True, i'd forgotten that... [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose the bigger question is how the "Men of old" were supposed to have defeated Sauron's chief servants, considering the Wiki at least is supposed to be beyond the reach of any man. Are we supposed to understand that the Nazgul were dramatically weakened when Sauron lost the Ring? If so, why did the WiKi risk invading the Northern Kingdoms when he did?


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Sep 6 2013, 12:57pm

Post #45 of 47 (80 views)
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Settled? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yes, the Weta Chronicles... and the guy on the MordorCast video quotes from the page concerned:


Quote
"While Gandalf seeks answers beneath the mountains, Thorin tries to lead his company over them., and finds himself at the mercy of elemental forces both natural and not."




Well, that should settle that question, I would think.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 6 2013, 8:38pm

Post #46 of 47 (63 views)
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Interesting theory... [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess the issue of one of the Ainur being able to see an unclad Ringwraith was never stated one way or the other as far as I can recall. All I remember is the explanation in UT that they were invisible unless clad in some kind of raiment, and that the terror that went before them was greater when all 9 were gathered together, unclad and invisible.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 6 2013, 8:43pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 6 2013, 9:11pm

Post #47 of 47 (70 views)
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If that turned out to be the case... [In reply to] Can't Post

...then were they not yet the invisible-when-unclad wraiths, but instead still visible men when they were buried in the "High Fells"? According to canon, the Nazgul had first appeared something like 5 or 6 thousand years prior to Bilbo's quest. If the Witch-king and the other Nazgul were alive and still in their "man" forms up until the realm of Angmar fell, that would mean that the 9 kings did not actually take the form of Nazgul until they broke out of their tombs during the time of Bilbo's quest. While not necessarily a contradiction in terms of the movie history, it's a major departure from book lore. Sorry if this is confusing (I'm beginning to confuse myself TBH), but I'm just trying to wrap my head around what exactly the history of the Nazgul is in film-lore.

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