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Gandalf, the balrog, and narya

rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Sep 3 2013, 4:12am

Post #1 of 13 (365 views)
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Gandalf, the balrog, and narya Can't Post

I was hoping for your guy's thoughts on gandalf's words on the bridge of khazad-dum:

"I am a servant of the secret fire" do you believe this is a reference to the Flame Imperishable? Or is this a reference to the secret fire of Narya, the ring of fire?

"Wielder of the flame of Anor." Again, is this a reference to the ring or something else?

I am curious for your thoughts on this.

Not all who wander are lost


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 6:56am

Post #2 of 13 (262 views)
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Anor = the Sun [In reply to] Can't Post

There's a brief, but excellent, discussion of this phrase in the Encyclopedia of Arda.








Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Sep 3 2013, 2:04pm

Post #3 of 13 (221 views)
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Well, if we wanted to get into ME universe.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The text was, purportedly, translated from other languages, so it could be taken a translation of a common idiom that just didn't translate well into English.(usually a feature of poor translation, or choices to translate it literally.{ In Hebrew, people and places are depicted, and spoken of, as people. So you have hills, nations, and natural features "rejoicing". Also, to say that someone speaks, it uses a form to say that 'this',[the words], comes from the "lip[singular]" or "mouth" of the speaker} So you have to take that into account when dealing with {purported} translations, though I have seen some HILARIOUS ONES!)

We may never know the true meaning, in the Bookverse, but we can guess the meaning of the idiom. Some Ancient Hebrew ones' meanings, in real life, have actually been lost!!


rangerfromthenorth
Rivendell

Sep 3 2013, 2:27pm

Post #4 of 13 (230 views)
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good thoughts on 'Anor' [In reply to] Can't Post

But that brings me back to Gandalf's other words. I notice the article leans towards saying that Gandalf is referencing the Flame Imperishable when he says he is the "servant of the secret fire..." and that this is really a just a way for Gandalf to say, "I am a servant of Eru." For some reason I do not think this adds up.

Their main argument is that Gandalf coul dnot be referencing Narya here because why would he reveal that one of his greatest foes? The problem I see with that is 1. Would a Balrog even know what Narya is? He is a relic of the ancient world before the Rings and as far as we can tell he hid in Moria for ages. 2. Saying "i am a servant of the secret fire" means he is a servant of a secret fire, he does not spell out what the fire is (hence our discussion), the Ring of Fire is after all a secret. Is gandalf channeling the power of Narya here to battle the Fire-demon or do you think he is announcing himself as a servant of Eru? Perhaps it's none of the above?

Not all who wander are lost


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 3:24pm

Post #5 of 13 (217 views)
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Speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that it would be foolish for him to say, "I have Narya, the Ring of Fire on my hand, and I'll use it against you." He says he has the Secret Fire, which remains secret. Could be gunpowder or a great big firecracker. Telling someone you have a secret weapon is meant to scare them, whether you have one or not.

But he also says he's a servant of the fire, which doesn't seem plausible. He wields Narya's power, but I have trouble seeing him say he serves it.

The stumbling block I have with "I'm a servant of the Secret Fire/Imperishable Flame" is that the Balrog, apparently a spirit from the time before Arda, would know, at least from Melkor if not personally, what the Flame Imperishable is, and he could say he's serving it as much as Gandalf is, just in his own way. Melkor certainly wants to take hold of that secret fire, and make it serve him. So maybe that's the distinction? Gandalf serves the Flame Imperishable whereas the Balrog/Melkor/Sauron would like to subdue it, and Gandalf may be implying that serving it gives him more power.

For the rest of it about Anor, I take that to mean the sun. Now, how exactly does Gandalf wield the flame of the sun? I don't see a special connection between him and it, but maybe it's just not something Tolkien ever touched on. Or maybe Narya ties in to the sun.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 6:35pm

Post #6 of 13 (200 views)
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Let there be light! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Then Ilúvatar said to [the Ainur]: ‘Of the theme that I have declared to you, I will now that ye make in harmony together a Great Music. And since I have kindled you with the Flame Imperishable, ye shall show forth your powers in adorning this theme, each with his own thoughts and devices, if he will. But I will sit and hearken, and be glad that through you great beauty has been wakened into song.

...for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part, and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Ilúvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased.’


The Ainur are empowered by the Flame Imperishable, and the "secret fire" is a manifestation of the Flame within them. Gandalf the Istar is sent by the Ainur, so it is logical for him to consider himself the servant of the Flame.

The Sun and Moon were lit by light from the fruits of the Two Trees, which in turn had been lit by the Flame, channeled by Yavanna. And it is reasonable that the "fire" that Narya represents would be of the same origin. Therefore, to me there is a consistency between "I am a servant of the Secret Fire" and "wielder of the flame of Anor." I take this to mean that he was sent by the Ainur, and is therefore their servant, and moreover he bears a token of this office in the form of a Ring. He does not specify exactly what powers this confers, but uses his powers judiciously and appropriately on this and other occasions.







Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 6:35pm

Post #7 of 13 (197 views)
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Great question Ranger! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


"I am a servant of the secret fire" do you believe this is a reference to the Flame Imperishable? Or is this a reference to the secret fire of Narya, the ring of fire? My own feeling is that this refers to the Secret Fire - a bit of a dig to the servant of Melkor, who never got to touch and mold the Fire himself and whom it tormented with its absence. The Balrog, as an Incarnate spirit, is indeed a child of the Flame, but has no power from it. I think indeed what Gandalf implies here is that by serving the Flame (Eru) he is identifying himself as the Balrog's opposite. (In Letters JRRT says the Istari have no direct opposite, but implies that the Balrogs are pretty close.) I do not think it refers to Narya. The greatest point to me to support this that the Three were created to maintain and preserve, and even the Kindler, as JRRT calls Narya, was meant to kindle the soul. It gave Gandalf some small power over fire in Arda (ie: his fireworks, which JRRT references with Narya) but I do not think it has any 'weaponizable' properties. It certainly I think gave Gandalf the strength to endure the Balrog over any member if the Fellowship - which is why he sacrifices himself (forfeiting, as he thinks, any chance of personal success in the endeavors against Sauron: a sacrifice, as JRRT says. But one that shows his humility, his lack of grasp for power, and thus brings about, through higher Authority, his return.)


"Wielder of the flame of Anor." Again, is this a reference to the ring or something else?
I vote for 'something else.' I see a bit of symbolism here, and some literary patterning, as fond as the Professor was of alliteration. Two points to begin:

- Indeed the word Anor represents the Sun: the light of the new Ages, life-giving, even if it is second best.

- Balrogs are described by JRRT as 'primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age.' (#144) He repeats the word 'primeval' here twice, and I think that's important: on a philosophical and in a linguistic way. Plus describing the fire of the Balrogs specifically as 'destroying' I think has meaning as well. So connecting these two points, along with some of the other dialogue on the Bridge, I see a pattern of wordplay: the Balrog is a leftover from an older age, an age that has passed; the dark consuming fire of Melkor, the power of the First Age, is passed and gone. The Fire of today, of this age, is the new fire of the Sun: which gives life and does not consume it.

So I think what Gandalf might be saying here is : Your time is passed...your age is passed...the time of the Sun is now, and that is what I stand for; and finally of course, (by me) YOU shall not pass. So perhaps both a statement of the Ages and a linguistic gauntlet - a challenge of one Age to another.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








(This post was edited by Brethil on Sep 3 2013, 6:38pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 6:49pm

Post #8 of 13 (186 views)
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Contrasts [In reply to] Can't Post

They're both fire specialists, aren't they? Gandalf says so himself, vaunting his fire sources while calling the Balrog "Flame of Udun," which I take to mean "flame of hell." Of course the Balrog has whips of fire and seemed to command the fiery pits he leaped over, so he was no fire wimp, making this a fire vs. fire combat (minus the part in the bottom-most lake). Would the Balrog have been intimidated by Gandalf naming the associations with his fire magic, or would it have thought, "As the wizard just admitted, I'm a flame of Udun, so who cares about this Anor stuff?"

Or maybe the Balrog remembered when the Sun and Moon first rose. Morgoth sent spirits to attack the (weaker) Moon, but didn't dare attack the Sun, and he and his servants were always afraid of it. Maybe Gandalf was using that fear to plant a seed of doubt in his opponent, who did seem to briefly waver before his assault.


Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 9:38pm

Post #9 of 13 (177 views)
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Reminder of the Sun [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Or maybe the Balrog remembered when the Sun and Moon first rose. Morgoth sent spirits to attack the (weaker) Moon, but didn't dare attack the Sun, and he and his servants were always afraid of it. Maybe Gandalf was using that fear to plant a seed of doubt in his opponent, who did seem to briefly waver before his assault. That's a great point! I like it! After all this Balrog hid deep in Moria just to avoid the new Age and its Sun (though I doubt he thought of it as the Yellow face. I'm sure it was something much more profane.) Wink


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Na Vedui
Rohan


Sep 4 2013, 12:16am

Post #10 of 13 (173 views)
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Sun and earth [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first read LOTR - not having read the Silmarillion - I simply associated the Balrog and "dark fire" with the volcanic fires in the earth (which Sauron also used to forge the Ring, and Mount Doom was in Mordor, so there was a clear association between use of those powers and the "baddies"), and assumed that Gandalf could wield the power of the sun (Anor) through Narya.
This seemed a clear case of fighting one kind of fire with a more powerful one, in terms of our own cosmology at any rate - earthfire being sunfire but less of it and at one remove, so to speak.


Darkstone
Immortal


Sep 4 2013, 2:23pm

Post #11 of 13 (156 views)
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Nienna, mockery, and Hinduism [In reply to] Can't Post

I just don’t see "I am a servant of the secret fire" referring to Narya, since as we see with the One Ring, being a servant of any ring of power is generally a bad thing.

As for "Wielder of the flame of Anor," Anor is Sindarin for “fire”, so it’s “Wielder of the flame of fire”, which is redundant and rather confusing, which is probably the point. As the Balrog wrinkles his fiery brow and goes “Wha..?” Gandalf plants one inna labonza.

As for where he probably got it, it was probably from Nienna. She helped make the Two Trees, and later she’s the one who cried over their ruin and so created the Sun and Moon. Olórin was her student and spent a lot of time over at her house. (No, they’re just good friends.) She was also big on the power of pity, and wore a grey cloak. Obviously Olórin copied just about his entire Gandalf schtick from Nienna, so it‘s no surprise that he somehow convinced her to let him wield the Flame of the Sun, aka Anor.

As for the Flame Imperishable, Melkor always wanted the Flame Imperishable, but he never got it, so how could one of his creatures have it? So the Balrog’s flame has to be a mockery of the Flame Imperishable, which would be why Gandalf mocks him about it.

(Then again, from the Ainulindalë:

'And I will send forth into the Void the Flame Imperishable, and it shall be at the heart of the World, and the World shall Be; and those of you that will may go down into it.'

So maybe it was the Flame Imperishable and the Balrog had indeed gone really really down deep.)

Or perhaps maybe Tolkien was slipping a bit of Hinduism in LOTR:

“As the spider sends forth and draws in its thread, as plants grow on the earth, as hair grows on the head and the body of a living man—so does everything in the universe arise from the Imperishable."
-Mundaka Upanishad, First Mundaka, 1:7

Then again there is no record of Tolkien saying anything like "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Hinduistic work" so probably not.

******************************************
“That hobbit has a pleasant face,
His private life is a disgrace.
I really could not tell to you,
The awful things that hobbits do.”


elaen32
Gondor


Sep 4 2013, 10:33pm

Post #12 of 13 (132 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post

with your first point- I too think that the "Secret Flame" is the Flame Imperishable and identifies Gandalf with Eru (ie he is one of the good guys). Hence the "servant" of the secret fire. I do not think that Gandalf would describe himself as a servant of a ring, made by the Elves at the behest of Sauron, somehow.
However, I think that "Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could well relate to Narya. We are not told how Narya was made and why it was the Ring of Fire, but maybe the sun's rays were involved, or,maybe, the fire in which it was forged was lit from the rays of the sun, like the Olympic torch. The Fire which Narya represents is the "good" or "clean" Fire within Middle Earth- which I suggest could be the Sun, as opposed to the subterranean fires of the Dark powers


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Brethil
Half-elven


Sep 5 2013, 12:03am

Post #13 of 13 (137 views)
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Interesting possibility Elaen [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

However, I think that "Wielder of the Flame of Anor" could well relate to Narya. We are not told how Narya was made and why it was the Ring of Fire, but maybe the sun's rays were involved, or,maybe, the fire in which it was forged was lit from the rays of the sun, like the Olympic torch. The Fire which Narya represents is the "good" or "clean" Fire within Middle Earth- which I suggest could be the Sun, as opposed to the subterranean fires of the Dark powers




I agree here with the idea that one way or another, Gandalf represents the new generation of 'fire' as personified by the Sun - had never considered that Narya might have had some measure of origins with the light of the Sun. And that 'clean' fire in is opposition to the dark, primeval fire of the Balrog.

Cool idea! Cool

We really need to find those Ringmaking instruction manuals. Purely for information of course.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!







 
 

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