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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Losing Bilbo
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Sharkey
The Shire


Aug 31 2013, 6:48pm

Post #1 of 61 (1355 views)
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Losing Bilbo Can't Post

I, much like many other fans, have begun (or, more accurately, continue) to worry about PJ+Company disregarding The Hobbit himself in favor of more elf spamming and traditional heroes such as Bard and Thorin. In fact I've been almost despondent lately because my theory is that AUJ was the most Bilbo-centric these films will ever be. And that was my #1 criticism of the first installment.
Martin Freeman is doing some fantastic work with what he's given...here's hoping he's given more! The nature of DOS in many ways could make it have the least for Bilbo to do. I really hope this doesn't happen- most likely a flimsy compromise will occur. Bilbo will be our hero through Mirkwood until the elves arrive to save the day. Perhaps more emphasis will be placed on his burglar abilities in the middle chapters and then TABA will really let him shine.
Also, on a side note, it's curious more emphasis hasn't been placed on the Sherlock connection and the brilliant casting there. I know fans love it, but I think the correct marketing could really help DOS's numbers.


Nira
Lorien


Aug 31 2013, 7:14pm

Post #2 of 61 (734 views)
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Which one is the Hobbit? Bilbo who? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think it will be that bad, but I do think he'll take a back seat to the elves for a while in the next movie. Unsure

I agree about the Sherlock thing. Maybe they can't use "Sherlock" in advertising for legal reasons? It would be smart to use Martin and Bennedict together in ads. Hopefully they will as we get closer to the movie. I'm pretty sure I read that they (M&B) don't enjoy doing press, extras, or ads much. IDK if that has anything to do with it.

"Why, to think of it, we're in the same tale still! It's going on. Don't the great tales never end?" -Samwise

(This post was edited by Nira on Aug 31 2013, 7:15pm)


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 31 2013, 9:36pm

Post #3 of 61 (623 views)
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We're only working from the trailer and promo stories [In reply to] Can't Post

when we talk about the relative film-time of Bilbo vs Elves. I'm not surprised that the DOS publicity has focused on the Elves: Legolas was insanely popular during the LOTR films and hooking back into that character and the Elves around him makes sense from a marketing point of view, since they're trying to get the attention of not just book fans but also those who fell big-time for the LOTR movies.

It'll be interesting to see how much focus is on Bilbo in DOS, but we can't judge that from the publicity.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 10:11pm

Post #4 of 61 (600 views)
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My problem with that is [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Legolas was insanely popular during the LOTR films and hooking back into that character and the Elves around him makes sense from a marketing point of view, since they're trying to get the attention of not just book fans but also those who fell big-time for the LOTR movies.

These aren't the LOTR films. Obviously the tone and feel are completely different. Personally I think fans of Legolas would be upset since he is not supposed to be a main character. And shouldn't IMO be marketed as such. I can see showing him some but he and Tauriel and elves are the majority of the trailer which are only a small portion or should be IMO of the film



dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 10:19pm

Post #5 of 61 (577 views)
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Seems a bit premature to be despondent, doesn't it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Specially when it's only your own theory you're despondent about.

They're promoting the elves because they know that elves are popular; also because the last film had all those dwarves and a lot of the promotional material had to focus on them. The message is 'Look folks, this one's different'. But Bilbo is there, he's always there.

As for the Sherlock connection, I'm not sure what you mean about that. So far we've only had one trailer, an article of two and and pre-publication stuff for the books, and it isn't normal to home in on other parts the actors have played, is it? Or did you want more of Smaug and Bilbo? They teased it in the trailer, but obviously don't want to give too much away yet.

Film is called THE HOBBIT (in big letters) The Desolation of Smaug (in tiny weeny ones). I take that as a hint. The Official Movie Guide has Bilbo reflected in Smaug's eye as its cover design - how much closer to Tolkien can you get? The films are about Bilbo, don't worry. They disrupted all their schedules to get the actor they wanted for Bilbo, there's no way they'll lose him in the undergrowth.


Legomir
Bree

Aug 31 2013, 10:49pm

Post #6 of 61 (581 views)
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I think the Elves are gonna parallel... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Rohirrem from the Two Towers, as I've said before. Sure, they are new characters to the series and they are a large part in it, but they are not the main focus of the film at all, neither with Lord of the Rings (Fellowship) or the Hobbit (Bilbo and company). I can almost positively say that this is all marketing. Like others have said, the Elves are popular, and all marketing cares about is getting as many rears in seats in the theater as possible.


morro91
Bree

Sep 1 2013, 2:08am

Post #7 of 61 (525 views)
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Folly [In reply to] Can't Post

I think its folly that people keep referencing a characters percentage of trailer time, poster covers etc as some sort of valid representation of their percentage time in the actual film.

Shall I remind you of the 5 pillar characters that held up the marketing of the first film: Gandalf, Bilbo, Thorin, Galadriel and Gollum. The last two had a combined 20 minutes of the 160minute movie.

The marketing of the film is to get bums on seats, especially if studio driven. Mainstream audiences are going to gravitate easily to Legolas over Thranduil. Its marketing 101 to associate things that people already like. Gollum was advertised because everyone like Gollum. Galadriel was advertised to appeal to female audiences.

There are easily parallels between Gollum/Galadriel in regards to the marketing of the film with Legolas/Tauriel.

Now, I believe that Legolas and Tauriel will get more than what Gollum and Galdriel got in the first film, but it doesn't mean that Bilbo, Thranduil et al. are suddenly relegated.

Bilbo will be a main plot them of film #2, and I think they will really hammer the theme of why Bilbo came on this adventure, which was something not done really well in the first film. I think despite all the other marketing, Bilbo will be the main character, without equal, of Film #2.

There is a chance though, that film #3, will see Bilbo relegated, because theres not much story in the book of Bilbo during BoFA, but I'm sure the writers will have that covered.


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Sep 1 2013, 3:12am

Post #8 of 61 (492 views)
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Did you mean to reply to me? [In reply to] Can't Post

FWIW, you and I are thinking along the same lines.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 1 2013, 3:27am

Post #9 of 61 (490 views)
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You are onto something [In reply to] Can't Post

There will be subplots (mainly due to introduction of a large number of characters) that exclude Bilbo from screen time or at least importance to those plots B,C,D,etc. Screen time is nothing if it isn't meaningful. For example, dwarves, save Thorin, were in many scenes but hardly had something to do plotwise. They mainly acted as a non-descript group.

However, that shouldn't be a surprise since inclusion of Gandalf's plot (that happens off screen in the book) pretty much promoted him from one of supporting characters in Bilbo's story to a co-lead with his own story. IMO, AUJ was more Thorin movie than Bilbo movie and I think that the trilogy will be viewed as Thorin trilogy in retrospect. So there are at least 3 main characters making The Hobbit and ensemble movie like LOTR as opposed to Bilbo movie like the book.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



morro91
Bree

Sep 1 2013, 3:31am

Post #10 of 61 (479 views)
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Probably [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably, sometimes I want to reply to various posts in one post, so just click one of the "reply to this post".


Yngwulff
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 3:54am

Post #11 of 61 (483 views)
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Bilbo? Bilbo who? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo won't be the main character and take a back seat to Legolas(never appeared in the Book) Tauriel(totally PJ created) and Azog(killed 140 years prior in the Book)?
You guys mean the guy the book The Hobbit is named after??
The Company of Dwarves will get pushed to the side by the Woodelves???
Say it ain't so .....

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



(This post was edited by Yngwulff on Sep 1 2013, 3:54am)


cats16
Valinor

Sep 1 2013, 4:27am

Post #12 of 61 (466 views)
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I have to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't buy the "It's called The Hobbit for a reason and it's named after him" and similar statements. I mean, Sauron is the Lord of the Rings, yet we do not consider him to be the main character of the novel. There are other examples of this in literature.

I do agree with you that Bilbo is the protagonist and deserves the primary focus of the films, but I don't believe in that particular argument for that being the reason. I'd rather allow the words inside the cover explain Bilbo's prominence in the story, instead of equating "on the title" with "must be main character".


Sharkey
The Shire


Sep 1 2013, 4:31am

Post #13 of 61 (475 views)
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Never too early to be despondent [In reply to] Can't Post

Specially when despondent=massive (intentional) exaggeration of what is really mild concern

I don't need an ad saying "These guys are Sherlock and Watson!" persay, what I really want is PJ in a (current) vlog talking about how excited he is to get these two working together. And maybe a few shots of them in ADR or something.

That said, I think I vaguely remember somebody promising us a vlog after pick-ups were done....


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 1 2013, 5:02am

Post #14 of 61 (464 views)
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Sauron and Rebecca are primary characters in their respective books [In reply to] Can't Post

It's the testament to writer's skill that they managed to make those invisible, not present characters feel present and real. You got the essence of them through what others said about them and through actions of their minions (Sauron's Army, Saruman's Army, Mrs Denvers one of all time greatest female villains) They were also driving the plot. Yes, even dead Rebecca did that beyond the grave. And Bilbo isn't even that type of character but POV character in the book.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



boldog
Rohan

Sep 1 2013, 6:40am

Post #15 of 61 (442 views)
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sometimes i wonder (controvertial) [In reply to] Can't Post

if it would be better if the title of the book wasn't called the hobbit. Like I know that he Is the main character, but if it was called something else, that included everyone, then Im sure we would all be not arguing about bilbos screentime. This is very bland as a Tolkien fan, but to be honest im more excited at seeing all these new characters and their stories/plotlines play out rather than bilbos. to me it just seems a tad too boring, and being the last of all Tolkien adaptations, Id much rather see a bit of everything and as much of middleearth as possible, rather than just Bilbo and his Journey.

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


cats16
Valinor

Sep 1 2013, 7:06am

Post #16 of 61 (431 views)
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I completely agree with you. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's late, and I feel like I would surely contradict myself in a reply explaining myself (not what you want in a reply, I know). Though I will say that I feel there is a difference in titular characters like Sauron and those similar to Bilbo. Moby Dick is another example of this "invisible" type. But I don't expect the whale to be featured most prominently in the adaptation of that novel (in a "screentime" sense).


Yngwulff
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 8:38am

Post #17 of 61 (411 views)
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Its called the Hobbit for a reason [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Bilbo didn't kill Smaug or save the day at the BO5A, but his actions initially spurred by Gandalf doing his job as the mover and instigator of the free people to oppose Sauron was like the flutter of a butterfly's wings which causes a hurricane/typhoon. I think JRRT meant it to be that way and detracting from that theme in which little people doing small deeds of good no matter how seemingly insignificant do matter, is very important. The lucky number indeed!!!

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



Kangi Ska
Half-elven


Sep 1 2013, 9:54am

Post #18 of 61 (395 views)
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Like the way you think, DM. [In reply to] Can't Post

We often dig our own pits of despair.

KS

Kangi Ska Resident Trickster & Wicked White Crebain
Life is an adventure, not a contest.

At night you can not tell if crows are black or white.
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Skaan
Lorien


Sep 1 2013, 12:54pm

Post #19 of 61 (374 views)
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I think (minor spoilers) [In reply to] Can't Post

TABA is when we will realise Bilbo was the main character of this trilogy. Sure, DoS may or may not have lots of Bilbo screentime. And sure, other characters might get more screentime than Bilbo. But i think at the end of this trilogy, after the BoFA is over and we see Bilbo returning home and possibly rethinking about all the events that have happened and friends that he has lost, the audience will know that this has been Bilbo's story all along. The story begins with Bilbo and ends with Bilbo.


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 1 2013, 1:07pm

Post #20 of 61 (359 views)
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You nailed it [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that we got expanded roles for canon characters, added canon characters from other Tolkien works and a brand new characters because they felt that Bilbo wouldn't be commercially viable aka attractive to audiences of all ages and genders enough. This also may be controversial but when bridge movie was toyed with and it was announced that they'd add stuff from Appendices, many book readers got more excited about those additions rather than Hobbit itself. And FAQ by non-readers who loved LOTR movies was "Is Aragorn coming back?" So I'd say that based on feedback they figured the force is stronger with non-Hobbit characters and plots and acted accordingly.

And Bilbo's "one of main characters but not the main character" fate was sealed when they cast a hot Thorin. It's a no brainer. Of course that handsome brooding warrior is going to get equal or bigger amount of screen time when another emerged the most popular LOTR character. Nobody was asking for Frodo cameo or otherwise. They were asking for Aragorn.

So I agree that there would be less controversy (well, only on forums frequented by book fans) if title of the movies acknowledged ensemble spirit, instead of milking the famous brand name that's clear on who the only lead is.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



tolktolk
Lorien

Sep 1 2013, 2:11pm

Post #21 of 61 (350 views)
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The promotional campaign [In reply to] Can't Post

Apart from the elf-overkill in the summer, it hasn't really kicked off yet, but you can expect it to from this month onwards. Interviews and chat show appearances are beginning, there will no doubt be a new vlog and trailer and photographer Sarah Dunn has been doing photo sessions with ten main actors (starting with Stephen Fry and Martin Freeman).

On Bilbo and Smaug, Peter Jackson is well aware of the success of Sherlock (remember he said it was while watching an episode he decided to change the schedule so Martin Freeman could be available), he has connections with the Moffat stable and he has already issued a picture of them together on set.

Given the insane popularity of the show, some of the publicity is bound to focus on the fact that they both star in the film, in Britain at least. If for some reason Warners don't, the press will do it for them!

Incidentally, Sherlock has literally just wrapped this weekend, so I expect they will both have some time committed to promoting The Hobbit, among their numerous other projects.


glor
Rohan

Sep 1 2013, 4:18pm

Post #22 of 61 (323 views)
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yes and TABA may be when we get another Bilbo reveal? [In reply to] Can't Post

the one thing that struck me very early on, on my first viewing of AUJ, was that a lot of the film is shot from Bilbo's perspective, camera angles reflecting Hobbit height etc.

The Hobbit is Bilbo's story literally, Bilbo wrote it, this is not the third person narrative employed for LOTR, but a story where Bilbo is the conduit for the audience, the reader, it his story we are reading/watching, his story embelished as all good tales are by the author, Bilbo.

The Hobbit is a story being told, LOTR is a narrative being revealed, this is reflected in the films and I have feeling Bilbo's authorship will have a place in the final part of this trilogy.


(This post was edited by glor on Sep 1 2013, 4:19pm)


cats16
Valinor

Sep 1 2013, 4:30pm

Post #23 of 61 (309 views)
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Hopping threads to agree with glor again. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wholeheartedly agree with everything here.

I also feel that Bilbo's authorship will come back in TABA. In what manner exactly, I cannot say. My true gut instinct tells me we will return to Bilbo sitting on the bench, and go back into Bag End for the writing of his tale to continue. TABA and FOTR will be linked here.

Great distinction between the differences between the stories. I feel that Bilbo and Frodo's writing styles are underrated when considering the storytelling employed by both texts. The really contribute to the overall tone and feel to the stories.


(This post was edited by cats16 on Sep 1 2013, 4:33pm)


joec_34
Rivendell


Sep 1 2013, 11:38pm

Post #24 of 61 (262 views)
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His role/screentime parallels his character growth [In reply to] Can't Post

I similarly think that we'll subtlely see Bilbo's role move from useless baggage to expert burglar to ambassador of peace. In the end I think the way it is filmed will parallel Bilbo's character growth.

"Happy painting and God bless, my friend." - Bob Ross


Semper Fi
Rohan


Sep 2 2013, 12:41am

Post #25 of 61 (260 views)
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"Insane" popularity of Sherlock didn't help Star Trek Into Darkness [In reply to] Can't Post

They tried to sell the movie on Cumberbatch over Star Trek crew and the movie underperformed despite inflation and 3D. It also had bigger budget than previous movie.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.


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