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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
So...just how much more prominent is Azog's role going to be?

Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 31 2013, 5:51pm

Post #1 of 23 (833 views)
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So...just how much more prominent is Azog's role going to be? Can't Post

Now that we've got news that, apparently, Azog will be presented as having wiped out the rest of Beorn's kin, it would seem that Azog's presence is no longer just due to the fact that AUJ didn't have a clear villain. Apparently, he's become the scourge of north-western Middle-earth. Much of the info surrounding Beorn seemed to suggest that Bolg would end up providing Beorn with a rival, but now I'm not so sure. As others have mentioned, it seems Bolg is being crowded further and further out of the picture in order to accommodate Azog's presence.

So, just how much more is Azog going to have to do in these films, and is it getting to be a bit much for some of you? Should Bolg's role be diminished to make way for Azog, as some on these boards have suggested?

I have my thoughts, but I'll wait to hear some responses before I speak my opinion.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Aug 31 2013, 6:30pm

Post #2 of 23 (452 views)
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I smell a campaign of Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm even more interessted which role the Necromancer/Sauron did play in Azogs "war in the north". Regardless if this was in Tolkiens mind or not I'm only webbing my own theory now:

Yes, obviously Azog wants to destroy almost every non-orcish civilization in the northern parts of Middle-earth. It seems that he was successful in killing almost every Beorning except for Beorn himself. Afterwards he tried the same with the Dwarves of Durins line but failed finally. And the Goblin-King seems to be an ally of Mount Gundabad. But why does he what he does? I still can't and won't understand that an Orc seeks world dominion.

I can't say why but I smell a campaign of Sauron to destroy the free people of the North behind Azogs actions
.I see a connection to the Witch-King of Angmar who obiously plays a bigger part in this trilogy than expected. Angmar was mentioned several times in AUJ I think even more often than in LOTR (only once or twice there). We know that before it's defeat at Fornost Angmar destroyed the kingdoms of Eriador (west of the Misty Mountains). Perhaps Azogs mission is the same but in the east of the Misty Mountains? It's just a theory... but I only begin to like that idea :-D

Just look at the BOFA: A huge army of evil servants is marching towards Erebor. IF they'd won that single battle all Men, Elves and Dwarves of the North-East would've been destroyed and no single enemy of the Dark Lord would've been left there and able to face him in open battle. One single strike and no one left. Dragon or not it seems perfect to me. That also would give him the opportunity to concentrate on his southern campaign and destroying the kingdoms of Rohan and Gondor leaving them no ally in the North knowing that the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell already started leaving to Valinor. Can you follow? It's only a matter of time that Middle-earth falls into the darkness again. Ring or not.

Perhaps Azog would be allowed to rule the North for Sauron?


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 6:52pm

Post #3 of 23 (418 views)
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Isn't Azog the star of these films? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure him and the necromancer are much more important than say Bilbo, and The dwarfs... they were after all only tagging along on Gandalf's adventure Crazy


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 9:40pm

Post #4 of 23 (336 views)
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Yeah but azogs da man! [In reply to] Can't Post

Hes got the abs, the right attitude, the looks, those knee trembling smiles the ladies love, his presence is a refined nexus of brutality and well spoken foreign manners of an orcish gentleman of the north....


I say hes the Star, right before Swimsuit Thorin and now possibly The Elven Baywatch squad of Mirkwood.

Really , just make a dos poster with bard, tauriel, azog at the center, Kili of course, shaven pronto, Thorin looking hot and majestic, a subservient gandalf, some orcs, a mountain and insert a small figure, bilbo in the right hand corner...much like Mace windu got in the star wars posters. Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 1 2013, 1:12am

Post #5 of 23 (281 views)
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The Necromancer doesn't bother me... [In reply to] Can't Post

True, the Necromancer stuff was all behind the scenes, and I don't think I like the idea of him being behind the Bo5A, but I just don't have the same objections to him, at least not yet.

Azog, well, he's almost single-handedly ruining this trilogy for me. It's a huge bummer that they keep blowing his role up.


thomasofrohan
Lorien

Sep 1 2013, 1:41am

Post #6 of 23 (279 views)
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Manu Bennett was a terrific presence in AUJ. Excited to see more of Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

 


LordotRings93
Rohan


Sep 1 2013, 2:14am

Post #7 of 23 (273 views)
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Azog's a boss, so I'm not complaining [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog has easily become one of my favorite Middle-earth characters, and the only villain in Middle-earth who's struck a chord with me. Just his badass-ness, especially his scene on Weathertop, has me sold on him. I love this change, so honestly I don't mind his role being big.

Lover of Medieval Fantasy
"I know what I must do. It's just... I'm afraid to do it."


Yngwulff
Gondor


Sep 1 2013, 3:49am

Post #8 of 23 (260 views)
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I think Beorn will kill Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

That will pave the way for Bolg in TABA

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Sep 1 2013, 5:47am

Post #9 of 23 (251 views)
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Let's just say [In reply to] Can't Post

the less Azog, Professional Wrestler of the North, the better. Ugh.


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Sep 1 2013, 5:49am

Post #10 of 23 (244 views)
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Let's hope so. [In reply to] Can't Post

This actually makes sense. The sooner the better, though.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 1 2013, 7:46am

Post #11 of 23 (228 views)
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Witch-King comes North against Arnor. Rivendell/Lindon/Arnor-Gondor defeat Angmar. . . soon after a Balrog is roused in Khazad-Dum, slaying Durin [In reply to] Can't Post

and destroying that kingdom more thourhoughly than any outside foe, or any army of orcs and trolls could have hoped to do, profaning the place with his demonic power, exiling the dwarves from their most sacred ancestral home and causing a host of Elves to flee Lothlorien in fear. . . LOTHLORIEN now lies SANDWHICHED between a Maiar Demon in Moria, and a Maiar Demon in Dol Guldur, though it is not fully understood at the time by The Wise. . . The Nazgul overthrow Minas Ithil, it becomes Minas Morgul, The Tower of Evil Sorcery. . . The last king of Gondor, formerly restrained from folly by Glorfindel The Elf-Lord, finally rides to challenge The Witch King, and is lost. . . Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur and Sauron hides from him. A watchful peace commences. . . quiet centuries. . . Sauron begins moving again. He sends orcs and trolls to repopulate Moria, and the Balrog, though domimnating them through terror and power, permits them to colonize his realm. Dragons begin reaking havoc in the north. Smaug The Magnificent ruins Erebor. The Ring of Durin begins to work its ill power on the mind of Thror, who is slain etc. etc., yes, Sauron was DEFINITELY at work. .. and hopefully they will do a thourough job of tying much of that in, which is seemingly their intent despite the serious gaffes they have made along the way.


In Reply To
I'm even more interessted which role the Necromancer/Sauron did play in Azogs "war in the north". Regardless if this was in Tolkiens mind or not I'm only webbing my own theory now:

Yes, obviously Azog wants to destroy almost every non-orcish civilization in the northern parts of Middle-earth. It seems that he was successful in killing almost every Beorning except for Beorn himself. Afterwards he tried the same with the Dwarves of Durins line but failed finally. And the Goblin-King seems to be an ally of Mount Gundabad. But why does he what he does? I still can't and won't understand that an Orc seeks world dominion.

I can't say why but I smell a campaign of Sauron to destroy the free people of the North behind Azogs actions
.I see a connection to the Witch-King of Angmar who obiously plays a bigger part in this trilogy than expected. Angmar was mentioned several times in AUJ I think even more often than in LOTR (only once or twice there). We know that before it's defeat at Fornost Angmar destroyed the kingdoms of Eriador (west of the Misty Mountains). Perhaps Azogs mission is the same but in the east of the Misty Mountains? It's just a theory... but I only begin to like that idea :-D

Just look at the BOFA: A huge army of evil servants is marching towards Erebor. IF they'd won that single battle all Men, Elves and Dwarves of the North-East would've been destroyed and no single enemy of the Dark Lord would've been left there and able to face him in open battle. One single strike and no one left. Dragon or not it seems perfect to me. That also would give him the opportunity to concentrate on his southern campaign and destroying the kingdoms of Rohan and Gondor leaving them no ally in the North knowing that the Elves of Lorien and Rivendell already started leaving to Valinor. Can you follow? It's only a matter of time that Middle-earth falls into the darkness again. Ring or not.

Perhaps Azog would be allowed to rule the North for Sauron?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Sep 1 2013, 7:50am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 1 2013, 7:47am

Post #12 of 23 (258 views)
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It is pretty damned obnoxious, and kinda disgusting from a number of perspectives. [In reply to] Can't Post

Bolg could have done a lot of this leg work. We will see.

In Reply To
Now that we've got news that, apparently, Azog will be presented as having wiped out the rest of Beorn's kin, it would seem that Azog's presence is no longer just due to the fact that AUJ didn't have a clear villain. Apparently, he's become the scourge of north-western Middle-earth. Much of the info surrounding Beorn seemed to suggest that Bolg would end up providing Beorn with a rival, but now I'm not so sure. As others have mentioned, it seems Bolg is being crowded further and further out of the picture in order to accommodate Azog's presence.

So, just how much more is Azog going to have to do in these films, and is it getting to be a bit much for some of you? Should Bolg's role be diminished to make way for Azog, as some on these boards have suggested?

I have my thoughts, but I'll wait to hear some responses before I speak my opinion.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


tolktolk
Lorien

Sep 1 2013, 7:47am

Post #13 of 23 (217 views)
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Ditto again [In reply to] Can't Post

Awful character, awful dialogue.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 1 2013, 4:33pm

Post #14 of 23 (192 views)
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It wasn't Mr. Bennett's performance that bugs me about Azog... [In reply to] Can't Post

It is the rewriting of his history that has me annoyed.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 1 2013, 4:35pm

Post #15 of 23 (186 views)
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Seriously... [In reply to] Can't Post

He's gone from a once-mentioned DEAD character in the novel, to the damned main villain in the film version. It really surprises me that more people aren't annoyed by this.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 1 2013, 4:40pm

Post #16 of 23 (177 views)
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I don't see that happening... [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't see Jackson allowing anyone besides Thorin to kill Azog. Since Fork-hand's presence in TaBA is all but confirmed, it's almost a certainty that he'll be around for the Bo5A. That DOES give the writers a chance to have Dain do what he should have done at Azanulbizar, but will they use that opportunity, or will they go down the generic cliched route and give Thorin his revenge? If I were a betting man, I'd say the latter.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 1 2013, 4:48pm

Post #17 of 23 (173 views)
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If only... [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'd be prepared to be disappointed about that if I were you. Jackson and Boyens always gush about how totally rad Azog "the Defiler" is every time it gets brought up in an interview, so it's no surprise he's being elevated to main-baddie status. He'll show up at the Bo5A, make some dumb faces and shout some WWE lines, *SPOILERS* make good on the whole "wipe out the Line of Durin" thing, then get offed by a dying Thorin (possibly with Dain's help).


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Sep 1 2013, 4:51pm)


Yngwulff
Gondor


Sep 2 2013, 3:18am

Post #18 of 23 (121 views)
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That's a very good possibilty [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I can't see Jackson allowing anyone besides Thorin to kill Azog. Since Fork-hand's presence in TaBA is all but confirmed, it's almost a certainty that he'll be around for the Bo5A. That DOES give the writers a chance to have Dain do what he should have done at Azanulbizar, but will they use that opportunity, or will they go down the generic cliched route and give Thorin his revenge? If I were a betting man, I'd say the latter.



Didn't think of that. Give Dain his hero moment in BO5A by killing Azog there .... very likely.
Exactly something PJ would do and Beorn still gets to kill Bolg ... all neat in a tight package!

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 2 2013, 9:49am

Post #19 of 23 (118 views)
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I agree that's what Jackson SHOULD do... [In reply to] Can't Post

If we must suffer Azog until the Bo5A, then I say let Dain be the one to do away with him.

But I don't know if Jackson will do that. By then he'll have spent so much effort building Azog up into a personal foe for Thorin, that I just find it hard to see Jackson having anyone but Thorin killing Azog. Hopefully, I'm wrong in my assumptions though Wink


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 2 2013, 8:17pm

Post #20 of 23 (94 views)
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At this point, I am fine with Thorin killing Azog. But it needs to be IN Desolation. [In reply to] Can't Post

Let him kill Azog, and Bolg have a built up reason to seek vengeance. Otherwise its garbage. Dain killing Azog now. . . for what? The power of the scene is already lost. The minute it was taken away from Moria, it lost all its potency. It was part of a whole. Dain, fresh, young and fierce, slays Azog, who had recently also slain his father, aside from having desecrated his king and kinsman. Dain slays Azog on the threshold of Moria, whereat he beholds the great terror of the Dwarves, Durin's Bane, Balrog of Morgoth, and comes back stricken with fear to warn Thrain off from the folly of ever trying to claim Moria. Outside of that full context, it just isn't as compelling.

Azog has been set up as having a grudge match with Thorin. It would really rub movie first audiences the wrong way now if Thorin doesn't slay him.

In Reply To
If we must suffer Azog until the Bo5A, then I say let Dain be the one to do away with him.

But I don't know if Jackson will do that. By then he'll have spent so much effort building Azog up into a personal foe for Thorin, that I just find it hard to see Jackson having anyone but Thorin killing Azog. Hopefully, I'm wrong in my assumptions though Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 2 2013, 11:58pm

Post #21 of 23 (67 views)
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If it were a choice between... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Azog being killed off in DoS, or Azog being killed by Dain in TaBA, I'd agree with you. But unless something's been changed, Jackson has all but confirmed that Azog will be in TaBA. Now I do think you're right, and most of the film-only audience probably wants to see Thorin kill Azog, and Jackson's setting up of Azog as Thorin's main nemesis would likely point to eventually Thorin being the one to kill Fork-hand.


I also agree that the whole Azanulbizar sequence being played out like it was in the book would have been AWESOME to watch unfold. But I still think Dain, who becomes King under the Mountain, needs something to get the audience to accept him, since he's already suffered a bit of character-assassination in the dialogue at Bag-End. Let's face it, when all is said and done, Azog will likely have been the most prominent villain in the trilogy, the only one to have been present since the very first film. Dain killing him would most certainly give the audience a reason to accept him as King under the Mountain. Of course, this is assuming Jackson sticks to the script regarding Dain and his ascension. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Thorin kills Azog, but in the end Azog succeeds in his "wiping out the line of Durin" mission/quest/thing, and Dain's ascension to the throne is either glossed over real quick, or forgotten altogether, in the name of emphasizing Thorin's pyrrhic victory.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Sep 3 2013, 8:18am

Post #22 of 23 (57 views)
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I think maybe Dain's kingship should smart. Especially for Balin. Balin is going to dare Moria, [In reply to] Can't Post

and we know that The Wizards know something far more dreadful and dangerous than Azog, far older and fouler than ANY orc, abodes there. Something has to prompt Balin to go into that folly. A dissatisfaction with a johnny come latey king would make sense to start.

In Reply To
...Azog being killed off in DoS, or Azog being killed by Dain in TaBA, I'd agree with you. But unless something's been changed, Jackson has all but confirmed that Azog will be in TaBA. Now I do think you're right, and most of the film-only audience probably wants to see Thorin kill Azog, and Jackson's setting up of Azog as Thorin's main nemesis would likely point to eventually Thorin being the one to kill Fork-hand.


I also agree that the whole Azanulbizar sequence being played out like it was in the book would have been AWESOME to watch unfold. But I still think Dain, who becomes King under the Mountain, needs something to get the audience to accept him, since he's already suffered a bit of character-assassination in the dialogue at Bag-End. Let's face it, when all is said and done, Azog will likely have been the most prominent villain in the trilogy, the only one to have been present since the very first film. Dain killing him would most certainly give the audience a reason to accept him as King under the Mountain. Of course, this is assuming Jackson sticks to the script regarding Dain and his ascension. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Thorin kills Azog, but in the end Azog succeeds in his "wiping out the line of Durin" mission/quest/thing, and Dain's ascension to the throne is either glossed over real quick, or forgotten altogether, in the name of emphasizing Thorin's pyrrhic victory.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Sep 3 2013, 10:17pm

Post #23 of 23 (47 views)
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While I think that would be good motivation for Balin... [In reply to] Can't Post

I still would like to see Dain do something heroic, instead of having all of his deeds appropriated by Thorin, who himself really was not a very heroic dwarf, or even a competent one, as far as what Tolkien wrote about him. It doesn't seem right to me to have Dain, quite possibly the greatest dwarven warrior recorded in Tolkien's histories, to be portrayed as nothing more than an undeserving Johnny-come-lately. I think they can accomplish proper motivation for Balin's departure without further assassination of Dain's character.

 
 

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