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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: the Desolation of Smaug Manual 2013
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 30 2013, 11:17pm

Post #76 of 108 (569 views)
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hopefully they keep it similar to the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I know I say that enough but ...

Bilbo doesn't take the Arkenstone till after he sees there is no reasoning with Thorin. After Bard and the Elves come to the front door, after they have entered into their Stalemate. To have him withhold it before just makes Bilbo seem even less honest than when he deliberately stole Gollum's ring. Tongue To me it just wouldn't make sense from a story telling point of view. Bilbo and Thorin should be on friendly terms at this point in the story and Bilbo's mind doesn't really get changed until Thorin becomes greedy and obsessed, refusing to even deal with the men of Laketown whom without their help wouldn't have gotten supplies to make it to the Lonely mountain. Makes no sense for Bilbo to hide something from a friend. But after Thorin refuses to deal with the men and elves whom without Bard Smaug would surely have came back and ate the dwarfs.

I think the whole finding and giving the Arkenstone to Bard needs to be after the dragon is dead Bilbo finding it before just leads to more questions and discrepancies in the story IMO


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 30 2013, 11:20pm)


Semper Fi
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 2:02am

Post #77 of 108 (585 views)
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Quick thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't like the cover (floating heads, random sizes), don't like that inside the book pictures are too much publicity posing, too little movie scenes (or at least those posted here are), really don't like that Bard looks exactly like Will Turner. Took me right out of the story. And he has 3 kids. Oh dear. Harry Potter kids and Aliens Newt are about the only kids in fantasy and sci fi that I could stomach.

Really like that Tauriel likes the dwarves and disagrees with Thranduil. Really like her running off to Laketown and helping one of Bard's kids with unfortunate name Tilda - ugh, seriously, they couldn't find a nice Middle Earth name? Have a big problem with Legolas running after her because he's protective. This isn't Twilight, OK? Tauriel can take care of herself. So this sounds like Legolas I shoe-horned, while Tauriel actually has a reason to be there cause, as the Chief of the King's Guard, she is responsible for re-capturing dwarves. Take that Tauriel naysayers. She has a valid place in the story. Legolas not so much if you take away the default of being Thranduil's son.

So it looks like Tauriel will be a strong character, romance a weak link and Bard is really miscast. Pretty, well-coiffed glamour boy, not a rugged, grim one. Also, how old was he when he had the first kid, 12? Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards

Tauriel saved us from Itaril. Never forget.



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 2:42am

Post #78 of 108 (523 views)
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hate having to write in a subject line each time [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know I say that enough but ...

Bilbo doesn't take the Arkenstone till after he sees there is no reasoning with Thorin. After Bard and the Elves come to the front door, after they have entered into their Stalemate. To have him withhold it before just makes Bilbo seem even less honest than when he deliberately stole Gollum's ring. Tongue To me it just wouldn't make sense from a story telling point of view. Bilbo and Thorin should be on friendly terms at this point in the story and Bilbo's mind doesn't really get changed until Thorin becomes greedy and obsessed, refusing to even deal with the men of Laketown whom without their help wouldn't have gotten supplies to make it to the Lonely mountain. Makes no sense for Bilbo to hide something from a friend. But after Thorin refuses to deal with the men and elves whom without Bard Smaug would surely have came back and ate the dwarfs.

I think the whole finding and giving the Arkenstone to Bard needs to be after the dragon is dead Bilbo finding it before just leads to more questions and discrepancies in the story IMO


I don't know I always thought it was pretty unsympathetic the way Bilbo took the Arkenstone. I think he made a bad situation even worse by doing so. There was NO way Thorin was ever going to bargain to get what was rightfully his to begin with, if anything it risked just getting most of the other dwarves, who probably would have been more willing to say "hey you know, maybe we should give them a share" after thinking about it awhile, siding with him based on the fact that it was stolen and being used to force the issue, raising their dwarven hackles, etc, etc.

TBH honest that was one thing I was on Thorin's side about, even in the book. The men and elves show up on his doorstep with an army ready to go, start making demands(now I do believe the men deserved a share, some of it was from Dale and also just out good neighborliness for the fact that the dragon destroyed their town, but the elves could go jump off a cliff and they shouldn't have been interfering in an issue between men and dwarves to try and force the issue).

Then Bilbo steals the most important part of the treasure, which was a symbol of kings of Erebor, his family. For something that anyone with half a brain could see wouldn't work, because someone who is full of pride and stubborn and showing signs of instability is only going to get MORE stubborn and unstable and afraid of showing weakness when you try and force them into capitulation through blackmail.


marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 3:48am

Post #79 of 108 (529 views)
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subjects [In reply to] Can't Post


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Don't like the cover (floating heads, random sizes), don't like that inside the book pictures are too much publicity posing, too little movie scenes (or at least those posted here are), really don't like that Bard looks exactly like Will Turner. Took me right out of the story. And he has 3 kids. Oh dear. Harry Potter kids and Aliens Newt are about the only kids in fantasy and sci fi that I could stomach.

Really like that Tauriel likes the dwarves and disagrees with Thranduil. Really like her running off to Laketown and helping one of Bard's kids with unfortunate name Tilda - ugh, seriously, they couldn't find a nice Middle Earth name? Have a big problem with Legolas running after her because he's protective. This isn't Twilight, OK? Tauriel can take care of herself. So this sounds like Legolas I shoe-horned, while Tauriel actually has a reason to be there cause, as the Chief of the King's Guard, she is responsible for re-capturing dwarves. Take that Tauriel naysayers. She has a valid place in the story. Legolas not so much if you take away the default of being Thranduil's son.

So it looks like Tauriel will be a strong character, romance a weak link and Bard is really miscast. Pretty, well-coiffed glamour boy, not a rugged, grim one. Also, how old was he when he had the first kid, 12? Laugh


While I agree Bard looks way too much like Will Turner, I think he looks plenty old enough to have adolescent kids, he looks in his mid-30's, at least.

I've got no issues with Tauriel, I think she has a place in the story and I agree, to me it seems like Legolas is the one being shoe-horned in.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:39am

Post #80 of 108 (466 views)
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Emphasis and Nimrodel emerging [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the heads up. A couple of points of emphasis emerge.

Azog's role is gaining traction as he is now also a key adversary of Beorn. I think Bolg (the spawn of Azog, suggesting a lesser person rather than heir ) is probably now reduced to being the jailor of D.G. In story telling terms this makes sense and I am finding it increasingly difficult to see how or what purpose would be served for Bolg to survive DOS.

If Azog is Thorin's nemesis and the main protagonist of Beorn we have the perfect set up for the denouement at the BOFA with Azog in the book role taken by Bolg .

Once I became aware last year that Tauriel journeys to Lake Town it reinforced my view that the the wisp of a story from L.O.T.R. she is based on is Nimrodel. Like Amroth Legolas will go in search of her. If the N /A story plays out then L survives and T dies.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Aug 31 2013, 6:44am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 31 2013, 7:15am

Post #81 of 108 (455 views)
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Looks to me like Tilda and Sigrid will have blonde hair. [In reply to] Can't Post

Remember this from video blog #7? On the second row, to the right of Christopher Lee is Luke Evans. Then there is John Bell and 2 child girls. I think it is safe to assume they are Sigrid and Tilda.



dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 7:21am

Post #82 of 108 (442 views)
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Well, sorry but... [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to disagree with you there.

In the book Bilbo does take the Arkenstone before there's any question of anyone resaoning with Thorin - a long time before. When Smaug attacks the mountain and the dwarves are shut in they go into the mountain and Bilbo is sent on ahead. And finding the hoard with no dragon he climbs it and finds the Arkenstone. And takes it, saying nothing:

'Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had anuncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvellous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'

At this point he has stolen it. He hides it among his things, 'wrapped in an old bundle of tattered oddments that he used as a pillow', and all the time Thorin is talking about it and searching for it - and actually being very nice to Bilbo - he says nothing. So if they show him in the film witholding the Arkenstone before the stand-off between Thorin and Bard they are showing exactly what happens in the book - and if that doesn't make sense to you from a storytelling point of view, I'm afraid it's Tolkien you have to blame. Hiding the Arkenstone from a friend is exactly what Bilbo did - and the point of it, I think, is the power of the hoard. Dragon sickness - that is one of the themes of the book, and Bilbo isn't immune.

[If you want to read it for yourself, it's from 'Not at Home' and 'The Gathering of the Clouds' ]


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 8:43am

Post #83 of 108 (440 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

It really is quite a reprehensible act on Bilbo's part, there's no getting away from it. I hope it comes across that way in the film. We ought to feel Thorin's betrayal, and not just sympathise with Bilbo in the pivotal scenes.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:10pm

Post #84 of 108 (387 views)
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there has to be [In reply to] Can't Post

some rational for Bilbo withholding the Arkenstone from Thorin. (Jackson has deviated in every other way pretty much from the book why should this be any different Tongue) needs to be a good reason. The only good reason there will be for Bilbo to withhold it is for Bard to bargain with Thorin. No other reason makes sense with what they have already done to the characters at this point. They haven't really made Bilbo like the book in many ways, Thorin and Bilbo are supposed to be friends. Maybe Bilbo will find it early on maybe he wont. at this point nobody but Jackson knows since he has already deviated 1000 times over.

But the only scenario that makes sense to me based on the direction Jackson is taking the characters is Bilbo taking the Arkenstone maybe at anytime but withholding it because Thorin may already be showing signs of dragon sickness earlier than in the book, or doing things where Bilbo begins to not trust him. I really can't see the arkenstone which in Jackson's film is supposed to be all important in the quest to be the catalyst that sets Smaug off.

The book even sayd Bilbo no matter when he takes it had an uneasy feeling that it would cause trouble and be a problem...


Quote
"All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it."

the character arc that Jackson has given Bilbo is one of a good person not someone who would do something out of malice. So in taking the arkenstone, which Bilbo has a feeling will cause some trouble, he is trying to stop trouble before it starts. i see nothing wrong with that. Bilbo for the most part was honest, I can't remember but i don't think he outright lied to Thorin about the arkenstone, he just chose not to tell him at that exact time to do it when he found it at a time when he felt it would not cause trouble

Quote

"But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time.

which to me implies he would tell them about it even though he does contemplate keeping it. But he KNEW he would have to tell them about it. He just opted to do it when he chose. Had he not withheld the arkenstone, there would have never been any negotiating with Thorin. I'm sure Thorin would have never budged and after the BO5A would have holed himself and the dwarfs back up inside the mountain and the men elves and dwarfs would have still ended up waring with each other because of Thorin's stubbornness and greed not to at least give the men some of the treasure


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 31 2013, 12:21pm

Post #85 of 108 (394 views)
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Well, it's Tolkien's story you're criticising now.... [In reply to] Can't Post

And fair enough, if you don't think Tolkien's version works and you'd like Peter Jackson to improve on it.

But according to Tolkien, Bilbo took the Arkenstone because he couldn't resist it. He knew he was doing wrong and rationalised it to himself, but all the time Thorin was searching for the Arkenstone and saying how much it meant to him - and being very nice to Bilbo - Bilbo kept the stone hidden and he said nothing. At the time Thorin gave Bilbo the mithril coat, Bilbo was keeping the Arkenstone from him.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Aug 31 2013, 3:16pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:24pm

Post #86 of 108 (373 views)
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forgot to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO the Bottom line is, it shouldn't matter what Bilbo takes it should just matter he takes something. To me the arkenstone is the most irrational choice for the film makers to use because of its importance. It shouldn't matter WHAT Bilbo takes but IMO they shouldn't find the arkenstone till they have time to investigate and look around Erebor. We saw in the prologue that it. gets buried under mounds of treasure and surely wouldn't be found so early. Something small and insignificant should be enough to show Smaug's obsession with his treasure horde. Since they know every single piece of treasure in it and do not like to lose any of it no matter how small and meaningless.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 12:27pm

Post #87 of 108 (389 views)
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But he also knew it would cause trouble [In reply to] Can't Post

the book even says so. I think it caught his eye but his rationalization made him realize the truth of it. Nothing that wasn't in the book Wink.

I don't think Jackson can improve on the book honestly. Tongue


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 31 2013, 12:31pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Aug 31 2013, 1:48pm

Post #88 of 108 (366 views)
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One reason for PJ to replace the cup with the Arkenstone... [In reply to] Can't Post

(which is the basis of what is been discussed, I think) would be simply because he wants to cut the number of times Bilbo goes up and down the tunnel to Smaug's lair. The BBC radio adaptation did this by cutting out the theft of the cup altogether, and having Smaug be aware of Bilbo the first time he comes into his presence. So, I could see Bilbo finding the Arkenstone on his first visit, which awakens the dragon, and the riddles with Smaug conversation takes place there and then...

But if PJ is keeping the sequence of events as written, then replacing the cup with the Arkenstone would cause problems because with the cup, Bilbo showed his prize to the Dwarves, and earned their praise for his courage and daring before bein sent down the tunnel again. He's hardly going to show them he's got the Arkenstone. In that sense it is better for the Arkenstone to be found by Bilbo exactly as in the book - after Smaug has flown off to Laketown and the Dwarves are all exploring the hoard.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Aug 31 2013, 1:50pm)


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 3:18pm

Post #89 of 108 (321 views)
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About that last bit... [In reply to] Can't Post

...are you sure about the ending of the Nimrodel story arc? I seem to have mislaid my copy of Unfinished Tales, but I rechecked with the Tolkien Wiki: it is Amroth the prince who dies, drowning in a shipwreck. Nimrodel then goes off to live by herself and eventually pines away.

Not that this means that Tauriel's story arc isn't based on Nimrodel; in fact I'd been leaning about 60:40 or so in favor of Nimrodel over Glorfindel and the Witch King prophecy. The weak point of the Nimrodel idea was that, as I said above, her lover the prince dies first in her story. So...what about this: Legolas appears to die in the BOFA or some other place (maybe he appears to drown when Smaug hits Laketown) so that we have another patented Walsh / Boyens "dead...not really dead" scene. Interesting to speculate how they would take it from there.


Quote
Once I became aware last year that Tauriel journeys to Lake Town it reinforced my view that the the wisp of a story from L.O.T.R. she is based on is Nimrodel. Like Amroth Legolas will go in search of her. If the N /A story plays out then L survives and T dies.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 3:30pm

Post #90 of 108 (307 views)
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Completely agree IMO its the only way it makes sense [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But if PJ is keeping the sequence of events as written, then replacing the cup with the Arkenstone would cause problems because with the cup, Bilbo showed his prize to the Dwarves, and earned their praise for his courage and daring before bein sent down the tunnel again. He's hardly going to show them he's got the Arkenstone. In that sense it is better for the Arkenstone to be found by Bilbo exactly as in the book - after Smaug has flown off to Laketown and the Dwarves are all exploring the hoard.

using the Arkenstone as to his proof of being the burglar who was able to get into Smaug's lair and back out with somethiing of the treasure would make completely no sense since it is that which Thorin covets most in the whole of Erebor Wink



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 4:31pm

Post #91 of 108 (307 views)
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forgot again [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
the book even says so. I think it caught his eye but his rationalization made him realize the truth of it. Nothing that wasn't in the book Wink.

I don't think Jackson can improve on the book honestly. Tongue


That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening. He's thinking taking it will cause trouble, even if he does eventually tell them about it, but he does it anyway. He realized it's importance, he knows that this stone really wasn't part of the deal, he knows taking it will cause trouble. But he does it anyway.

I don't think he was really malicious but he was being selfish about it, he too in some way was seduced by it's beauty(perhaps an effect of the ring?) and so he wanted to, he rationalized, keep it for just a while and then at some point he'd tell them about it.

And in my opinion, the taking of the Arkenstone and giving it to the Elves is exactly what doomed any negotiations to failure. Then you aren't just having a tiff over money where maybe at some point saner heads would prevail but it becomes a question of deeply held dwarven pride. The Arkenstone really send Thorin over the edge.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Aug 31 2013, 4:36pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 5:03pm

Post #92 of 108 (280 views)
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disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening.

that is your opinion of what the book says, myself and others think it may have started out as Bilbo wanting the arkenstone but he quickly realizes it will never be his and the dwarfs will eventually have to know about it. He also acknowledges that he is sure that would NOT be part of the split even if that was all he wanted. He realizes that all in the same instance of taking it for himself. Many believe, myself included that Bilbo could sense things or could maybe already see the signs of Thorin's changing demeanor. So rather than let what may have been a possessed or irrational Thorin have his prize Bilbo withheld it for what ended up being the greater good. Because had he no withheld it there would have been NO bargaining with Thorin probably ever.

What I read and what you read may be the same words but its open to interpretation clearly Wink



Lio
Lorien


Aug 31 2013, 5:04pm

Post #93 of 108 (281 views)
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How do you find this stuff? XD [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to tell from the pictures, but one of them looks older than Bain. The other (Tilda?) might be younger. Does that make Bain the middle child? Smile

I wonder what the purpose of adding these characters is, story-wise. Will we hear about Bard's family life or what happened to his wife?

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." Dean O'Gorman (Fili)

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 5:30pm

Post #94 of 108 (283 views)
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You give Bilbo far too much credit [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a cynical act of greed, nothing more (notwithstanding Bilbo being overcome by a slight bout of dragon sickness or the influence of the ring). Thorin is rightly angry that Bilbo A) withheld the Arkenstone from him; and B) gave it to his 'enemies'. Bilbo knows full well what he's taken, and the value of the object to Thorin. And for some time (several days) that's all he knows. What he eventually does with the Arkenstone can't be linked to his initial actions, because he doesn't possess that much foresight.


(This post was edited by Shagrat on Aug 31 2013, 5:34pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 5:40pm

Post #95 of 108 (276 views)
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But if he hadn't what would have happened? [In reply to] Can't Post

read the text of the book... Bilbo knew immediately that he would never be allowed to keep the arkenstone, He knew he would at some point have to disclose its find to the dwarfs. He knew all that. Yes he willingly hid it from Thorin but I don't ever think he honestly thought he would hide it and keep it for his own. It says it right in the text of the book.But had he not hid it from Thorin all the dwarfs that went on that journey would likely be dead. Bilbo may not have had foresight but since Jackson wants to play up the pity of Bilbo and the destiny of the ring issue Why could it not be Bilbo's suspicions or feeling of what is becoming of Thorin be his reason for withholding the arkenstone from him... To me its obvious in the text that he knows he'll never be able to keep the arkenstone but maybe feels it isn't right to hand it over just yet. and his intuition turned out to be right just like his intuition not to kill Gollum.


Shagrat
Gondor

Aug 31 2013, 5:53pm

Post #96 of 108 (280 views)
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Why take it in the first place? [In reply to] Can't Post

You're reasoning is largely based on knowledge of later events in the book rather than Bilbo's actions at that specific moment and the immediate aftermath.

The problem as well with making Bilbo's action noble is that it essentially paints Thorin to be the bad guy when he casts Bilbo out. Some will see his side, but the majority of cinema-goers will just see him as a bully. Turning people completely against Thorin at this stage of the film would disastrous given the events which follow. There must be an obvious sense that Bilbo brings this on himself and warrants Thorin's anger. The balance has to be there.


marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:12pm

Post #97 of 108 (259 views)
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subject [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
That's a total misreading of what is being said in the book, IMO. Bilbo is realizing HIS taking of it will cause trouble and he does it anyway. He's not taking it to stop trouble from happening.

that is your opinion of what the book says, myself and others think it may have started out as Bilbo wanting the arkenstone but he quickly realizes it will never be his and the dwarfs will eventually have to know about it. He also acknowledges that he is sure that would NOT be part of the split even if that was all he wanted. He realizes that all in the same instance of taking it for himself. Many believe, myself included that Bilbo could sense things or could maybe already see the signs of Thorin's changing demeanor. So rather than let what may have been a possessed or irrational Thorin have his prize Bilbo withheld it for what ended up being the greater good. Because had he no withheld it there would have been NO bargaining with Thorin probably ever.

What I read and what you read may be the same words but its open to interpretation clearly Wink


Which is based on absolutely nothing in the quote itself. IMO it isn't open to that much interpretation. :) It's more along the lines of trying to give Bilbo excuses for what he did. I've already said I don't think he did it really maliciously, but that he was selfish about it. Nowhere is he thinking about any of that, he's thinking about the effect of what he is doing is likely to have. And even the way there is that pause in the writing while he's thinking he'll have to tell the dwarves - sometime.

That's exactly the way things are generally written/spoken when someone is making rationalizations to themselves about how they are going to do the right thing and tell the truth about it...you know, when the time is right, when they've just had a little bit more time with the thing or person they want, etc, etc. Only that "sometimes"/"just a little longer" keeps getting pushed back and pushed back and lo and behold...that "sometime" has never come unless the person is actually caught. It was pretty deliberately written that way IMO.

Thorin refused, even for the Arkenstone, if anything it appeared to me the Arkenstone is what set him solidly against the idea of negotiation and made him truly go mad, well that and you know, showing up with an army on his doorstep and showing no signs of sending the army away even when it turned out he was in fact still alive.

It was stolen and by someone he considered a trusted friend. Negotiating for something that unquestionably and rightfully belonged to him, as the king of Erebor and the head of the line of Durin was never ever going to happen, there was too much pride on the line by that point, and it didn't. The dwarves, elves and men were going to go to war against each other, it just so happens the Goblins and their allies interrupted before it started.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Aug 31 2013, 6:15pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 6:12pm

Post #98 of 108 (265 views)
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AGAIN read the scene in the book where Bilbo takes the Arkenstone. [In reply to] Can't Post

From the book.. this scene would take what maybe 1 or 2 minutes if that?


Quote
'Suddenly Bilbo's arm went towards it drawn by its enchantment. His small hand would not close about it, for it was a large and heavy gem; but he lifted it, shut his eyes, and put it in his deepest pocket.
"Now I am a burglar indeed!" thought he. "But I suppose I must tell the dwarves about it - some time. They did say I could pick and choose my own share; and I think I would choose this, if they took all the rest!" All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'

which to me means yes he took it but he had some intuition that it shouldn't be handed over yet At least that's how i read it. from reading that Bilbo has no intention of keeping the arkenstone. NONE what so ever IMO well mine and a bunch of others I have talked to your entitled to your opinion though we'll just have to wait and see how Jackson has rewritten the scene Angelic



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 31 2013, 6:23pm

Post #99 of 108 (260 views)
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I don't want to enter a subject [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
All the same he had an uncomfortable feeling that the picking and choosing had not really been meant to include this marvelous gem, and that trouble would yet come of it.'


Yeah, I'm reading it and from what I can tell it's saying Bilbo knows he's doing wrong(the uncomfortable feeling) and that when it was discovered he had done so, trouble would yet come of it. It's not intuition if you know you are stealing something, which Bilbo clearly does, and have the feeling that if you get caught, it's going to cause real problems.

There's no real intuition involved, just the most basic level of common sense. It SO obvious that this stone was not included in what he could pick and choose that he immediately realized it, even as he's coming up with rationalizations for taking the stone for what he's claiming to himself will be just a little while.

A stone which he then keeps for days on end even while Thorin is still being quite nice to him and he gets more and more upset about not being able to find the Arkenstone and once Bilbo has found out exactly what the stone means.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 31 2013, 6:47pm

Post #100 of 108 (252 views)
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we can keep going round and round [In reply to] Can't Post

so we can agree to disagree. i see it one way you obviously see it another way obviously others see it BOTH ways. But it depends on whether you want to justify the book or Jackson. one is Tolkien one is completely made up.

I guess I really don't care at this point what Jackson does. His film will never truly be the Hobbit for me and a great many other people.which at this point I'm perfectly fine with. it is what it is Wink At this point I'm just gonna go to DOS and treat it just like any other meaningless ( IMO ) stereotypical generic action fantasy film maybe then I can enjoy it more

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