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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
So, um, whatever happened with the Nazgul and Saruman?

aruman
Rivendell


Aug 28 2013, 2:12am

Post #1 of 14 (391 views)
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So, um, whatever happened with the Nazgul and Saruman? Can't Post

Was listening to the end of book 3 (first book of TTT) and I realized something...a Nazgul flew over their camp on its way to the now ruined Isengard. Gandalf told Pippin that Saruman might try to trap the Nazgul, or slay its steed. Do we ever hear any more about this? I'm fairly certain that we don't in the main story, but I thought maybe it was covered somewhere in an appendix or letter or something. Thanks!

In the movies Elrond, Denethor, Haldir, Galadriel, and Celeborn stink.


CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 2:42am

Post #2 of 14 (191 views)
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I'd love to know too! One of my many unanswered questions. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 3:03am

Post #3 of 14 (201 views)
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Oh yes! That's one [In reply to] Can't Post

I always wondered about myself. It seems to get lost in the fog of war. It's not in the appendices but there are many others here who could tell you if any information appears elsewhere.

Thanks for a great question!


Elizabeth
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 7:21am

Post #4 of 14 (236 views)
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Wouldn't we love to know! [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as we know, Saruman didn't manage to waylay any Nazgul, and I doubt that he had the power, after Gandalf "demoted" him. You know that Nazgul was in for a shock: he though he was going to fetch the Ring Bearer from Saruman, and instead found this erstwhile ally utterly defeated and besieged. Must have been an interesting conversation! But Tolkien never wrote about it, as far as we know.








Brethil
Half-elven


Aug 28 2013, 2:57pm

Post #5 of 14 (170 views)
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Interesting conversation is right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As far as we know, Saruman didn't manage to waylay any Nazgul, and I doubt that he had the power, after Gandalf "demoted" him. You know that Nazgul was in for a shock: he though he was going to fetch the Ring Bearer from Saruman, and instead found this erstwhile ally utterly defeated and besieged. Must have been an interesting conversation! But Tolkien never wrote about it, as far as we know.




Its fun to speculate on which approach Saruman would take:

"Yup that was the Ring, they took it. Quick you can still catch them if you move fast!!" Ducks into Tower. "Better get a move on! Go, go now. Bye!"

Or

"It wasn't the One, I never had it, No rings here. Nope."

Option 1 gives him a reason to send the Nazgul off on a wild goose chase but gets them away from Orthanc. Option 2 it seems might leave him ore vulnerable, as the truth may be seen as a lie and they may decide to search for it; though with Orthanc such a disaster and Saruman only having his voice and no other power it may give support to the tale.

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2013, 3:21pm

Post #6 of 14 (176 views)
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Is it the same Nazgul that ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Flies over Edoras as Gandalf and Pippin arrive (at the very beginning of ROTK book)?:


Quote
And hardly had they reached its shelter when the winged shadow had passed over once again, and men wilted with fear.


If it is, then Saruman failed to trap the Nazgul, and neither did he kill Saruman.



CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 4:45pm

Post #7 of 14 (171 views)
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What would he do with if he trapped it? [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf said Saruman was capable of it, even with his power broken. I'm never sure how. Lure it into some dungeon somehow, with a door it can't break by magic? Trick its winged steed into a net and wrap it up in a ball? And just what would Mr. Nazgul do to the wily wizard once he got free, even if other Nazgul had to help him, which I assume they would. If Sauron's messenger to Orthanc never came back, you'd think he'd send another, or more than one.

Hence I'd go with the theory of "Nope, just missed 'em. Yup, another Wizard with a Halfling and some hocus-pocus ring. Said something about going to Minas Tirith. If you hurry, and you can catch up with them! Don't mind the mess here in Isengard. I'll get some friendly Ents to help clean it up. They're such nice neighbors, and they give good shade in the summer months."


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 28 2013, 4:55pm

Post #8 of 14 (165 views)
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Watcher of Isengard. [In reply to] Can't Post

Encase in concrete and scare off intruders ala the Watchers of Cirith Ungol.

Or else build a maze and set it loose during daylight hours to conduct random walk experiments.

But I'll go with putting it on a treadmill with a stick and ring-scented carrot.

******************************************
Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream


CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 5:11pm

Post #9 of 14 (152 views)
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Love that idea, lol. [In reply to] Can't Post

"But I'll go with putting it on a treadmill with a stick and ring-scented carrot."


DanielLB
Immortal


Aug 28 2013, 5:27pm

Post #10 of 14 (153 views)
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What about with his mind? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Once he was as great as his fame made him. His knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle, and his hands marvelously skilled; and he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade, and the smaller folk he could daunt. That power he certainly still keeps.


Certainly, it wouldn't be enough. But it might be just enough to lure the creature (and Ringwraith?) in to some dungeon, and then use some other power.

It would be interesting to find out what Saruman told the Ringwraith! Having seen what happened to Orthanc (and the prospect of Pippin or Aragorn having the Ring), then why didn't they track Gandalf/Aragorn? The Mouth of Sauron knew Saruman had become a traitor, so Saruman must have admitted something.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 28 2013, 6:32pm

Post #11 of 14 (137 views)
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Hitchiking? [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe he wanted a ride out of Isengard, willing or not.

Perhaps he could have trapped the Nazgul? Magic is not undefeatable, or else the Maiar and Valar would have overrun ME by now. There must something that would defeat it. Perhaps Saruman knew of these things?


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Aug 28 2013, 10:37pm

Post #12 of 14 (130 views)
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My guess is, just talk. At first. [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman the spinmaster.

As far as keeping him trapped, I have no idea, other than Gandalf must have been aware of some power Saruman kept, perhaps from still being intrinsically a Maia.


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Aug 28 2013, 10:56pm

Post #13 of 14 (139 views)
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I think that Sauron had his full allocation of Nazgul at the assault on Minas Tirith so it must have escaped! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Lightfoot
Rivendell


Aug 29 2013, 4:37pm

Post #14 of 14 (121 views)
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Try The Unfinished Tales [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought I read someting about this in The Unfinished Tales awhile back. I am not quite sure if it dealt with this particular question, but it did cover the movements of the Nazgul throughout ME. I do not have the book in front of me at the moment but if someone else wants to check...

Faithful servant yet master's bane,
Lightfoot's foal, swift Snowmane


 
 

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