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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Wargs, Eagles, and Bats OH MY!!
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 26 2013, 10:50pm

Post #1 of 35 (1152 views)
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Wargs, Eagles, and Bats OH MY!! Can't Post

ok we've seen from the Vlog's and heard rumors of things. We all know the eagles and wargs are at the BO5A. There is speculation that Bats will be there as well probably from the bats in the necromancer scene in AUJ and ther have been rumors unknown to be true at this point about dain and the dwarfs from the Iron hills showing up riding giant Boar. What other creatures could we be seeing at the BO5A maybe some of Beorn's bear friends? Maybe goblins from the misty mountains? Trolls maybe since they are hinting at all sorts of nasty things coming around now that evil is stirring.

What kinds of things do people think we'll be seeing at the BO5A in TABA?


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 27 2013, 12:00am

Post #2 of 35 (522 views)
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I'd rather not see trolls... [In reply to] Can't Post

...to me that's a pretty big deviation. I'd like to see some of the Misty Mountain goblins there though, in conjunction with Bolg and his group (I'm fairly certain Fork-hand will still be around for the battle as well). As has been heavily speculated, I believe that the Necromancer will end up playing a big role in the battle. Not necessarily an active role, but I have a feeling that the orcs/goblins, bats, and wargs are going to somehow be linked to the Necromancer and "evil things stirring" and all that jazz. I would be very surprised if the orc attack was mounted to avenge the death of Great Goblin like it was in the book.

Knowing PJ and his penchant for OTT epic action sequences, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if instead of just Beorn showing up, we got a whole army of skin-changers (which I would be totally against).

I just really hope Jackson keeps in mind that the Battle of Five Armies is supposed to be child's play compared to the Battle of Pelennor Fields.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 27 2013, 12:30am

Post #3 of 35 (465 views)
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If he has to add trolls, why not [In reply to] Can't Post

vampires and werewolves! Laugh The werewolves can fight the skin-changers/berserkers, and the vampires can attack the humans, dwarves and elves, and try to drink their blood! Pirate Then a vampire can victimize Bilbo, and hence another subplot not in the novel unfolds! Laugh Now that would be epic! Sly Tongue


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 27 2013, 12:31am

Post #4 of 35 (468 views)
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So true [In reply to] Can't Post

That Battle of the Pelennor Fields is much more dramatic than the Bo5A. I hope he remembers this. He should make the Bo5A exciting, but not try to top the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.


(This post was edited by Ziggy Stardust on Aug 27 2013, 12:31am)


Oin's parasite
Rivendell


Aug 27 2013, 3:03am

Post #5 of 35 (431 views)
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I see it as this.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Battle of five armies is grand and epic in its own sense, but Pelanor is epic in another. Not sure how to explain it but one does not have to be toned down because of the other.

"I've got parasites as big as my arm!"


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 27 2013, 4:29am

Post #6 of 35 (427 views)
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Pelennor was THE decisive battle of the Third Age... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Battle of Pelennor Fields was meant to be Sauron's masterstroke, the culmination of his centuries of plotting to destroy the last stronghold of the descendants of Numenor. It was where the enemies of Sauron turned the tide of the war.

The Bo5A was an argument over a treasure hoard, interrupted by an army of orcs (and their warg and bat compatriots) seeking revenge for the slain leader of one of their tribes.

There's a major difference in the scope of these two battles, and PJ shouldn't try to top the Battle of Pelennor just because this is his last hurrah in Middle-earth. I'm not saying he will do that, just that he shouldn't.


emre43
Lorien

Aug 27 2013, 6:35am

Post #7 of 35 (406 views)
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Don't think it is speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

Richard Armitage said that Giant Bats fight the Eagles.


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Aug 27 2013, 8:04am

Post #8 of 35 (347 views)
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Stag party! [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe we'll see elvish cavalry, mounted on giant deers?

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 27 2013, 6:06pm

Post #9 of 35 (292 views)
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doubt PJ will want to scale down BOT5A because.. [In reply to] Can't Post

the battle of pelennor fields has already been shot, if anything PJ is going to try to make the BOT5A the biggest battle in the entire six film series....and he should.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 27 2013, 7:08pm

Post #10 of 35 (263 views)
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STRONGLY disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
if anything PJ is going to try to make the BOT5A the biggest battle in the entire six film series....and he should.


I think turning the Bo5A into the biggest battle in the whole series would be a massive mistake, and would show a major lack of perspective. Some day, when people are watching these films in chronological order, it's going to look extremely silly IMO if the battle for the fate of the world ends up being dwarfed by a battle that began as an argument over treasure. I'm sorry, but I think that would render the Battle of Pelennor anti-climactic. The Hobbit is nothing more than a prelude to LotR, and I hope Jackson doesn't forget that. I'd rather forfeit some of the spectacle to keep the scope of the story more intact.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Aug 27 2013, 7:08pm)


Eowyn of Penns Woods
Valinor


Aug 27 2013, 7:20pm

Post #11 of 35 (243 views)
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No, I'm fairly certain [In reply to] Can't Post

that one of the vampires develops an obsessive love for Tauriel, and then things go swirly and sparkly before the lovebirds ride or fly off into the twilight together. Or something like that.

**********************************

NABOUF
Not a TORns*b!
Certified Curmudgeon
Knitting Knerd
NARF: NWtS Chapter Member since June 17,2011


Arannir
Valinor


Aug 27 2013, 7:40pm

Post #12 of 35 (252 views)
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I don't think... [In reply to] Can't Post

... he will make it grander in terms of numbers. There, Minas Tirith and the Morannon will remain the champions.

But it will take its epicness from other aspects, such as the interesting landscape (slopes of the mountain etc.) and the weather (snow for all we know) imo.



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 27 2013, 7:44pm

Post #13 of 35 (258 views)
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Nope. [In reply to] Can't Post

*THE* decisive battle of the Third Age was the battle between Frodo and Gollum at Mount Doom. (spoiler: Frodo lost.)

Everything else, Helm's Deep, Perlagir, Pelennor, the Morannon, were merely sideshows and, er, "diversions".

And anyway, any battle that has Eowyn, Lady of the Shield-arm fighting in it is not going to be overshadowed by any other battle, even one with a whole battalion of Elven maid archers.

******************************************
Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Aug 27 2013, 8:36pm

Post #14 of 35 (234 views)
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I think it may be a nod.... [In reply to] Can't Post

To the fact that Gandalf when he informs the reunited Fellowship (or what is left of it) after Aragorn's coronation, he tells them about the battle of Dale, where forces fought Sauron's armies there as well, and where Dain fell defending King Brand.

Gandalf reminds them of the importance of that battle, and how it may have been just as important as Pelennor in that it protected the western half of Middle-earth from invasion through the north. He draws back links, to night in Rivendell, no queen in Gondor, etc. And says that all of this came about-because he met Thorin Oakenshield at an inn one night in Bree- A chance meeting, as it were.

That last part is mostly quoted word for word as I can remember from ROTK appendices.

So, PJ&co, since they didn't show this, might be nodding to it with the BO5A.

That's my theory anyway.

Tauriel (as her hair catches during BO5A)- Ah, now I understand why you keep your beard so short, master Kili!
Kili: Um, because it grows slowly? (glares at her for perceived insult)
Tauriel: Because your arrows don't get tangled in your *^%*(^$%* beard every time you shoot! (more curses as it gets further tangled)
Kili: Um, YEAH! That's it! That's why I keep my beard short! (strides off triumphantly with a huge grin on his face, still shooting arrows as the cursing and tangles continues behind him)

Tauriel keeps fighting the tangles on the battlefield long after Dain takes the throne and Dale is rebuilt. Frodo takes the ring to Morder and once Sauron is defeated she FINALLY gets the last arrow out.


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


Aug 27 2013, 10:09pm

Post #15 of 35 (203 views)
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Wouldn't mind Trolls [In reply to] Can't Post

But more like the Cave and Mordor Trolls seen in LOTR trilogy rather than Stone Trolls (I can't imagine them going of to battle). They can be used exactly like they were in LOTR, as shock troops. They wouldn't be a separate army just part the orcs/goblins hordes.

Yes, my username is terrible.


dormouse
Half-elven


Aug 27 2013, 10:12pm

Post #16 of 35 (217 views)
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Agreed.... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Battle of Five Armies has some visually dramatic element the later battles don't. Scenery, as you say, and weather - but also the variety of characters involved. All the LotR battles are basically men against orcs, with maybe one elf, one dwarf, a couple of hobbits. Five Armies has whole armies of elves and dwarves and a lot more creatures involved - and a giant bear. It's going to look very different.


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Aug 28 2013, 6:36am

Post #17 of 35 (199 views)
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well than you shall be sorely disappointed [In reply to] Can't Post

because everything i've heard about the upcoming BOT5A is that its going to be the largest battle yet.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2013, 4:08pm

Post #18 of 35 (145 views)
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Care to share where you got this info from? [In reply to] Can't Post

You sound like you're 100% certain about it.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2013, 4:18pm

Post #19 of 35 (150 views)
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I expect... [In reply to] Can't Post

the Bo5A to be full of all kinds of wood-elf acrobatics, and the whole battle in the sky between the bats and eagles will certainly bring in another aspect that was missing in the Battle of Pelennor Fields. And as you said, we'll see more than just men and orcs this time around, so right there you have something to set this battle apart from the major battles in LotR. Jackson could certainly stick with the proper scope of this battle and still make a dazzling spectacle out of it like we all know he wants to. He doesn't need to top the sheer numbers at Pelennor, and IMO he shouldn't even come close to that. What was there at Pelennor, about 100,000 orcs? And I think the Rohirrim numbered around 6000. Then there were the Haradrim and the Gondorians (who seemed to be very few in the movie). As far as the Bo5A, the numbers are MUCH lower than that. I think there were around 500 dwarves, 200 men, and a thousand or so elves. All that was said of the orcs and wargs was that they vastly outnumbered everyone else, so let's say around 3000-4000 for them. I'm certain Jackson will beef up the numbers at the Bo5A, but he doesn't need to approach the numbers at the Battle of Pelennor to make the Bo5A an epic battle.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Aug 28 2013, 4:20pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2013, 4:25pm

Post #20 of 35 (155 views)
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Fair enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

Technically, you'd be right about Frodo and Gollum being the *real* battle. But I'm talking about large scale battles, and Pelennor was supposed to have the biggest (although the battle in front of the Black Gate might have come close, or even topped it in terms of numbers). The Bo5A shouldn't top Pelennor as far as numbers are concerned.


Arandir
Gondor


Aug 28 2013, 5:02pm

Post #21 of 35 (147 views)
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Here you go ... a short analysis [In reply to] Can't Post

The Battle of Five Armies: An Analysis ... enjoy Smile

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 28 2013, 5:15pm

Post #22 of 35 (137 views)
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Interesting read, thanks... [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I thought they shot a little high with the orcs numbers. In any case, it's nowhere near the numbers at Pelennor, nor should it be.


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 28 2013, 5:21pm

Post #23 of 35 (134 views)
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Exaclty. [In reply to] Can't Post

You'll have a concentrated battle in a valley versus a dispersed battle on a plain. BOFA is going to look very crowded and claustrophobic.

Jackson cut most of the scenes filmed of the Pelennor because he said he found large battles between anonymous soldiers boring. He felt concentrating on the principals preserved audience interest. So I expect BOFA to seem larger, longer, and grander not only because of the location, but because Jackson will be cutting between far more numerous characters.

******************************************
Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream


Arandir
Gondor


Aug 28 2013, 6:07pm

Post #24 of 35 (120 views)
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Agreed ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Orc numbers for the BOFA were mainly calculated in respect of the extended of the Misty Mountain Range and the large numbers that seemed to have overwhelmed the sides of the Lonely Mountain ...

'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
'How Peter Jackson inches closer to making 'The Silmarillion'


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 28 2013, 7:43pm

Post #25 of 35 (107 views)
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Maybe at Dol Guldur? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If he has to add trolls, why not vampires and werewolves! Laugh The werewolves can fight the skin-changers/berserkers, and the vampires can attack the humans, dwarves and elves, and try to drink their blood! Pirate Then a vampire can victimize Bilbo, and hence another subplot not in the novel unfolds! Laugh Now that would be epic! Sly Tongue



I wouldn't mind such creatures at Dol Guldur (one of Sauron's tiytles was Lord of Werewolves, wasn't it?). But, keep them away from Erebor.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 28 2013, 7:50pm)

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