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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
DolGuldur and Thranduil I wonder "possible spoilers"
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 23 2013, 10:46pm

Post #1 of 32 (1425 views)
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DolGuldur and Thranduil I wonder "possible spoilers" Can't Post

in the appendices of ROTK there is mention of the "Battle under the trees", where Thranduil assists Galadriel in an assault on DolGuldur. If memory serves me correctly, I might be mistaken, But I'm wondering if this will be the events Jackson and company are using to bring the DolGuldur conflict to an end either in DOS or some where in TABA. The only issue I see with that would be that Thranduil is at the BO5A so for me IF and I do mean IF they play things out that way I think that the battle of DolGuldur will probably end in DOS.

This way it would beef up the events that the elves are involved in and explain why the DOS trailer might have been so elf heavy.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 23 2013, 11:42pm

Post #2 of 32 (761 views)
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Or will they possibly use [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas and Tauriel in Thranduil's place in the DolGuldur subplot so they can end it without troubling with moving events around which might possibly make it seem more difficult for Thranduil to be at the BO5A.


vexx801
Rivendell


Aug 24 2013, 12:04am

Post #3 of 32 (695 views)
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I wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

If maybe what happens in regard to Thranduil is this: Tauriel comes into his chamber to reveal that the dwarves have escaped and are in Laketown and the orcs (may) have attacked, when he assigns her and Legolas to do so, but he has just received a message from the White Council that makes him realize that the attack from the orcs is linked to something in Dol Guldur... so instead of pursuing the dwarves, he gathers some of his forces for Dol Guldur.

Or something. Not sure, I came up with that in about thirty seconds as a possible yet unlikely scenario, sinister. But I do think Thranduil could have a part to play in the Dol Guldur plot. It'd be logical - he does live in Mirkwood, and Sauron is occupying part of his Woodland realm.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Aug 24 2013, 6:49am

Post #4 of 32 (578 views)
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That's always how I've reconciled Legolas' absence in my mind... [In reply to] Can't Post

The explanation for why he wasn't present in Mirkwood when the Dwarves came visiting (in the book) must be because he was involved in the attack on Dol Guldur... Smile


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 24 2013, 4:35pm

Post #5 of 32 (441 views)
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I just assumed [In reply to] Can't Post

he was frolicking in mirkwood, drinking wine, speaking with bees and practising his surfing skills for he was destined to become ME's greatest surfer since Tom Bombadil's Youthfull escapades to the sea waves by the grey havens.

Which, of course caused the arrival of the Maiar. Wink

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Aug 24 2013, 4:35pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 24 2013, 6:58pm

Post #6 of 32 (409 views)
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Well I know for me [In reply to] Can't Post

I could at least rationalize it better since the Battle under the trees was an actual Tolkien event ( I can't quite remember for sure off the top of my head but I think was mentioned in the appendices which would give Jackson the right to use the event) If they substitute Legolas and Tauriel for Thranduil, then they could if necessary play out both event at a similar time without having to remove Thranduil from the BO5A. Although personally I'm hoping to get the DolGuldur stuff done in film 2 so that the third film can concentrate on the story of the Hobbit... But including the Battle under the trees or Battle of Mirkwood, which actually happened during the war of the ring but could explain why Legolas wasn't present at the BO5A as well. Since we know Jackson is making up A LOT of the content surrounding the DolGuldur subplot I would hope that they did a bit of deep research to be able to include something that might actually resemble Tolkien since to me Tauriel and Legolas's involvement in the films is nothing from Tolkien. Wink

One can hope, personally the more Tolkien they include in these films the better they will be Smile IMO of course


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 24 2013, 8:10pm

Post #7 of 32 (395 views)
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Tauriel and Legolas [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Since we know Jackson is making up A LOT of the content surrounding the DolGuldur subplot I would hope that they did a bit of deep research to be able to include something that might actually resemble Tolkien since to me Tauriel and Legolas's involvement in the films is nothing from Tolkien. Wink



If it makes you feel any better, I don't think that the discussion that Legolas and Tauriel have in the trailer about an upcoming fight can be about the Battle of Five Armies. Not only is the battle too far in the future for them to be debating it (it should be the climax of There and Back Again), but Thranduil's motive is to seize Smaug's hoard (or a portion thereof), not to start a fight. I thnk that they are talking about the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur and whether or not the Wood-elves should take part. The discussion makes much more sense to me if it is in this context.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 24 2013, 8:23pm

Post #8 of 32 (384 views)
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I'm hoping it is [In reply to] Can't Post

I really think that would be the best use of the characters Legolas and Tauriel would be to be involved in the DolGuldur portion of the films and honestly I would rather they were completely left out of the BO5A to be honest. But I'm sure they wont be.Hopefully Thranduil is like in the book there to assist the men of Laketown because he feels they are entitled to some of the treasure from Smaug's horde for the destruction of their town and with all intents and purposes, I hope they think the dwarfs dead at the hands (or rather jaws ) of Smaug.

I just think it would be cool since they are surely moving timeline events around to include the Battle of Mirkwood within the DolGuldur subplot substituting Legolas for Thranduil as leader of the elven forces. That way they can still have Galadriel bringing down the walls of DolGuldur yet still have some sort of battle with the elves being involved. I think it was rumored that the DG subplot would end in DOS, which at this point I doubt or at least hope not when thinking about the Battle of Mirkwood being (hopefully) included. It would at least keep the Necromancer away from the BO5A and allow DolGuldur to end with the Necromancer fleeing to Mordor, AND the BO5A ending with (SPOILER) the death of Thorin, Kili, and Fili and the defeat of the evil orcs. Two separate events barely tied together very loosely.


patrickk
Rohan

Aug 24 2013, 10:27pm

Post #9 of 32 (359 views)
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The elf action towards end of Trailer maybe Battle Under the Trees/Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

The scenes where Azog jumps up at the elves and Tauriel drops down etc must be from Dol Guldur as it is a big action scene, and there is no where else in the book for it to be. The orcs chasing the dwarves down the river is a skirmish type action rather than a full on battle.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 24 2013, 10:40pm

Post #10 of 32 (340 views)
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Thinking about it longer [In reply to] Can't Post

to me anyways it would make more sense and keep the Necromancer away from the BO5A if they held off the DolGuldur conclusion until closer to the BO5A. All of which taking place in film 3. As much as I would love for the necromancer subplot to be done and over with in film 2. This scenario makes more sense to me for some reason of keeping the Necromancer in DolGuldur until film 3 where they will combine events from the war of the ring with the white council ousting the necromancer from DolGuldur which happened during the time of the Hobbit.

Which cronologically wouldn't hurt anything in the scope of all 6 films in order since we never see DolGuldur in LOTR anyways. This way they could possibly show Mordor and the Beginnings of the tower of Barad-dur. which would lead into FOTR.

Just a thought Wink


redgiraffe
Rohan

Aug 24 2013, 11:36pm

Post #11 of 32 (325 views)
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Funny thing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Since we know Jackson is making up A LOT of the content surrounding the DolGuldur subplot I would hope that they did a bit of deep research to be able to include something that might actually resemble Tolkien since to me Tauriel and Legolas's involvement in the films is nothing from Tolkien. Wink

One can hope, personally the more Tolkien they include in these films the better they will be Smile IMO of course


I always love your posts, Sinister, even though I have different opinions than you. I personally like all of Jackson's middle earth films. Though, I definitely agree the more Tolkien the better.

What I still find funny is that Jackson keeps talking about having 125 pages of appendices material to use for the hobbit. Yeah, there's 125 pages in the appendices but a lot of it won't be usable for the hobbit's DG subplot, or anything else really.

IIRC, the dwarf/goblin wars and battle of azanulbizar took up quite a few pages, and in the movie it was easy to sum it up within a few minutes. There's still lots of Appendices material that involves much later or much earlier events that can't fit into the hobbit. IIRC, the DG stuff in the appendices wasn't really detailed.

So, I don't know, I guess I just think it's funny that PJ comments about how much info he has to use, when he doesn't really have that much. A lot of it is being made up.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 24 2013, 11:47pm

Post #12 of 32 (323 views)
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I've said before the 125 pages thing is an ulterior motive... [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of me thinks its a clever ploy to get the rights to the silmarillion (as IMO Jackson never cared for the light hearted side of Tolkien a la hobbit)-maybe he's putting emphasis on the appendices so it comes across as Christopher Tolkien's fault for not giving up the rights to the other books, after seeing the results maybe he's hoping C Tolkien will dop dead in shock leaving him free to pinch the rights to the other material...

Joking Of course! (or am I?)...but seriously does he actually think hobbit calenders and the military history of Gondor is in anyway shape or form related to The Hobbit?

As for the much talked about 'adult rewrite' hardly anyone has read thatTolkien quickly abandoned after lending to one unnamed person...the talking purse remains in this version unchanged...that's all you need to know IMO (see Jackson? Tolkien realised the purse had an important place in the story...and yet you give us Azog the fork monster and Radagst the Bunny wrangler...)

Wink

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 24 2013, 11:57pm

Post #13 of 32 (327 views)
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I love LOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't really have too many issues with them, well with the exception of the Witch King breaking Gandalf's staff in the EE. Wink

Personally I think where Jackson stuck to Tolkien his films are quite good. ALL OF THEM My problems are where Jackson chooses to insert made up content (some of which isn't bad , some Horrible and cringeworthy IMO of course) that either A. contradicts what Tolkien wrote, or B. takes the material which would have worked and changes it for no apparent reason (Trollshaws). I've found with the Hobbit that Jackson obviously likes to repeat himself esp. with his own dialogue, something that wouldn't happen if he stuck to the dialogue in the actual story. I loved the beginning of the Hobbit at Baggend, I found it true to the story and feel of the book, I even liked the betting scene following it. Personally I would have made his leaving Baggend differently by making Gandalf push him out the door but other than that I really enjoyed that part of the film. Once the Rock em Sock em stone giants came into play I felt there were only highlights of the book that were IMO good like Riddles in the dark, and brief glimpses in between. I found the Azog parts of the story to be utter garabage (IMO) with a character that to me looked painted over top of the scene instead of being IN the scene. All the sequences with him to me seemed forced and unnatural in the story, but again just my perspective.

As to DOS my expectations are extremely low so there shouldn't be much let down, I'm really looking forward to some things Thranduil being one of them. And I know its only speculation but am hoping that they are including the Battle under the trees in the DolGuldur subplot since it would add a bit more Tolkien to a story I personally feel they have already stretched too thin. Adding that material would at least justify Legolas and Tauriel being added to the story of the Hobbit in some small way to me.Wink


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Aug 24 2013, 11:59pm

Post #14 of 32 (321 views)
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I hope there's no Necromancer connection to the Bo5A... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Bo5A had NOTHING to do with the Necromancer, it was groups of dwarves, elves, and men who were arguing over their share of the spoils, interrupted by a bunch of angry goblins seeking revenge for their leader that had been slain.


malickfan
Gondor


Aug 25 2013, 12:21am

Post #15 of 32 (322 views)
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If TORn ever gets a chance to record a fan commentary for the Hobbit film's I'm nominating you [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink
Once more I totally agree with you-Azog is probably the main reason I haven't watched the film since January (funny how one of their most 'necessary' deviations from the story, ended up feeling like one of the most forced and tacked on, not to mention despised by many).

The Talking Purse is Awesome, deal with it.

But he isn't quite as aweome as Cirdan.

The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite, December 2012
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon, December 2013
The Radagast: 'Gandalf are we there yet?' December 2014


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2013, 1:18am

Post #16 of 32 (315 views)
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NAHHH!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm probably one of the most ignored people on TORn. most people here don't agree with 90% of things I say. I just tell it like I see it

I've been reading the Hobbit since I was 6 and everything Tolkien ever since. I guess haven't looked back yet. I read as much fantasy as possible but if I can't find anything I can always go back and reread Tolkien. which I do quite often Smile Honestly I was ecstatic when I heard LOTR was gonna be made into a set of films. Then I saw FOTR and enjoyed it, sure I had some gripes but I think the story the put on screen was good, and still in the "spirit" of Tolkien. I probably saw each of the three films 2 dozen times each in the theater. Then was the 10 year wait for the Hobbit. I guess I was looking for the story of the Hobbit in the style of LOTR. I personally loved that historical reality feel that LOTR had. But with the Hobbit I found it just OTT and far fetched in too many places compared to LOTR. Sure LOTR had a few OTT stunts mainly thanks to Legolas but in comparison not many. AUJ has already multiplied those OTT stunts in LOTR by 10,000 and then some IMO. I guess I am just too opinionated for my own good and too stubborn to change Wink

back on topic... I love how Boyen's said that they just thought the name was too cool not to use... Azog the defiler... IMO the only thing he defiled was the film itself Tongue

on a positive note though I am looking forward to Thranduil who will almost more than likely made up which I myself find shocking


redgiraffe
Rohan

Aug 25 2013, 2:01am

Post #17 of 32 (305 views)
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malickfan, and sinster71 [In reply to] Can't Post

sinister71, that makes it even more heartbreaking for me to hear that you loved lotr films and were let down by the hobbit. Ahhhh man I can't imagine the pain. Fortunately, for me, while I had my gripes with AUJ (a lot of them) I was ultimately satisfied. I'm just hoping these next two knock it out the park.

For me, some of Jackson's changes I didn't have a problem with. Some of them were big problems for me. The entire confrontation between Gandalf and the with-king was botched. It was so iconic in the book that I can't understand why you would miss that opportunity. Another big complaint actually was leaving out the westernesse blade with which Merry stabbed the Witch-king. So basically, any mortal could have killed the witch-king according to the movies. The army of the dead could have been much better if it had stayed closer to the book. But I actually quite liked the change in how Bilbo decided to leave Bagend in AUJ. Just my opinion of course!Wink

malickfan, hahahaha I remember seeing your post about that conspiracy. I couldn't help but laugh as I shook my head. It still cracks me up. The fact of the matter though, is that Jackson isn't completely correct in saying he has 125 pgs of material for the hobbit, and that Tolkien was planning a rewrite with all of those extra side stories. All we know is that Tolkien was trying to rewrite the hobbit at one point and his publisher told him not to do it because it just wasn't the hobbit anymore. But we have no idea what material he was going to include.

And to both of you, IMO as far as Azog goes I have an "okay/hate" relationship with his character. Hahaha it's certainly not love in any way! On the one hand I am glad that PJ was able to provide an emotional climax to AUJ, and for the most part I like the way Azog looks. That's the part of me that's okay with it. But there's also the fact that he's completely unnecessary (Bolg could have provided the same emotional impact in his stead - which would have been better), he looks too CGI in a real world environment, and his mannerisms are too OTT cliche badguy villain. That's the part of me that really hates him.

I mean, in the end Azog hasn't destroyed the film for me and I guess I've come to terms with him, but I REALLY hate the fact that it was a needless change to have him in such a big part, when the same effect could have been achieved by having Bolg in his place and a lot of fans would have been much happier with that change.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


redgiraffe
Rohan

Aug 25 2013, 2:04am

Post #18 of 32 (299 views)
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*sad face* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm probably one of the most ignored people on TORn. most people here don't agree with 90% of things I say.


So what? I don't agree with a large majority of things you say or even a lot of people on here. ...But I still love you guys all the same. And I value your opinions.Heart

So don't go thinking everyone here just ignores you, sir.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 25 2013, 2:31am

Post #19 of 32 (283 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that thranduil will be at BOFA because of the video blogs for DOS. So if he is present in the assault on dol guldur it would have to be during DOS. We also see legolas and tauriel in dale for the BOFA thanks to the video blogs so we know they won't be involved either, because at least one of them pursues the dwarves, we know from the empire article. It is my personal opinion and belief that the battle of dol guldur will be in DOS, and this is backed by the German film magazine. In the end, if its not in DOS then it will be in TABA so who really cares which movie it is in?

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2013, 2:39am

Post #20 of 32 (285 views)
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The thing is there is no time indications [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas and Tauriel could possibly be in Laketown earlier in the time line and then at DolGuldur later in it. Trailers tend to take bits out of context many times. So there is no real knowing of how things will play out yet. But from what we have seen there is nothing showing Thranduil at DolGuldur, but we have seen snipettes of Tauriel and Legolas at what looks like DolGuldur. Its all speculation at this point Wink


flameofudun
Lorien

Aug 25 2013, 2:40am

Post #21 of 32 (274 views)
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Sir I agree with you! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really loved lotr and AUJ was still great. A different feel, but so was the hobbit novel. Just as a side note, I really do love that feeling of traveling as a company and just adventuring, where it is still full of pressure, but nothing compared to the pressure in lotr or the silmarillion. I do love it.

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Aug 25 2013, 3:03am

Post #22 of 32 (264 views)
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Thats good of you [In reply to] Can't Post

considering how creatures such as me grumpy self and sinister have been treated sometimes on torn.

Cheers.

On TH and DG : cant wait for an extended edition documentary about the famous 125 pages of appendices and their adaptation, into cinematic material. Honestly, its the thing i am most curious about seeing jackson and boyens talk about...

Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Aug 25 2013, 3:03am)


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 25 2013, 5:17am

Post #23 of 32 (273 views)
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Dol Guldur VS BO5A [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Since we know Jackson is making up A LOT of the content surrounding the DolGuldur subplot I would hope that they did a bit of deep research to be able to include something that might actually resemble Tolkien since to me Tauriel and Legolas's involvement in the films is nothing from Tolkien. Wink



If it makes you feel any better, I don't think that the discussion that Legolas and Tauriel have in the trailer about an upcoming fight can be about the Battle of Five Armies. Not only is the battle too far in the future for them to be debating it (it should be the climax of There and Back Again), but Thranduil's motive is to seize Smaug's hoard (or a portion thereof), not to start a fight. I thnk that they are talking about the White Council's assault on Dol Guldur and whether or not the Wood-elves should take part. The discussion makes much more sense to me if it is in this context.



It can't be BO5A for the sole reason that none of them save possibly Gandalf knew Bolg was on the way with his horde and were utterly suprised by them. They may have known the assault on Dol Guldur was already planned or in the works.
.
If the orcs had not shown up it would have been the BO3A as the Elves/Men and Dwarves would have come to blows, but they dropped their quarrel to face the common enemies of all.

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”



(This post was edited by Ataahua on Aug 25 2013, 7:17pm)


Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

Aug 25 2013, 10:21am

Post #24 of 32 (230 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought and think their little chat is not about a specific fight, rather that the fight for Middle Earth in general.

When Legolas says ''It's not our fight'', I think he refers to the dwarves reclaiming Erebor (home of the dwarves). But when Tauriel replies with ''It IS our fight'', I think she is reffering to saving Middle Earth (not just the home of the dwarves, but the elves' home as well) from destruction (by both Smaug and other evil identities), hence ''When did we allow evil to become stronger than us?''.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''

(This post was edited by Ereinion Nénharma on Aug 25 2013, 10:23am)


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Aug 25 2013, 12:10pm

Post #25 of 32 (224 views)
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it is our fight [In reply to] Can't Post

What I cannot figure out is in the trailer when the two elves have their conversation, they actually appear to be on the edge of the long lake. You can slightly see what looks like Laketown in the background.

Are you (and everyone else on this thread who has mentioned it) sure that they are talking about DG and not the dwarves' plight?

Tauriel (as her hair catches during BO5A)- Ah, now I understand why you keep your beard so short, master Kili!
Kili: Um, because it grows slowly? (glares at her for perceived insult)
Tauriel: Because your arrows don't get tangled in your *^%*(^$%* beard every time you shoot! (more curses as it gets further tangled)
Kili: Um, YEAH! That's it! That's why I keep my beard short! (strides off triumphantly with a huge grin on his face, still shooting arrows as the cursing and tangles continues behind him)

Tauriel keeps fighting the tangles on the battlefield long after Dain takes the throne and Dale is rebuilt. Frodo takes the ring to Morder and once Sauron is defeated she FINALLY gets the last arrow out.

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