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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Woodmen, settlements, Beornings

Cirashala
Grey Havens


Aug 22 2013, 6:13am

Post #1 of 8 (719 views)
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Woodmen, settlements, Beornings Can't Post

So, this is merely a speculation thing, since I have looked at every map of Middle-earth I can find, and cannot seem to find a good answer.

We know the woodmen, and the Beornings, exist.

However, when looking at a map of Middle-earth, it would seem very clear macroscopically that the only settlements of men seem to be in Rohan, Gondor, Breeland, and obviously Harad and Khand, as well as Esgaroth (laketown) and, prior to the dragon, Dale. And we also see the Carrock, which is near Beorn himself.

I am curious-where and how are the man's settlements besides these Middle-earth "metropolises"?

Are there small settlements scattered all over except in the lone lands? Are there small unmapped settlements along the Anduin and along the coasts of Forlindon and Harlindon?

Since I would imagine that the woodmen would have been driven away from Dol Guldor and the southern edge of Mirkwood because of the Necromancer's presence, where would they have gone?

With the dwarves living in Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) after the fall of Erebor, and since we know they hate elves, who would the dwarves have traded with for foodstuffs? Surely they didn't make the several hundred mile journey to Bree every single time they had to trade with men? The food would have spoiled before they arrived back! Did they trade with the Shire? Is that how Bilbo knew that those strange creatures at his door were dwarves?

And why does the maps not show any settlements in Dunland? We know from LOTR that there were men in Dunland, and they happened to be pretty cranky with the Rohirrim at the time....

We also know that the westfold had many settlements (nomadic or permanent) because of the refugees of Rohan during the War of the Ring. Yet they are not marked on the maps.

We also know that there had to be some settlements of men somewhere near the eagle's eyrie, because they were afraid to take the company any further than the Carrock, both because they were not beasts of burden and also because they feared the arrows from the lands of men that they got their dinners from (sheep), and we also know from the book that the wargs were meeting to plan a raid on a human village when the company stumbled upon them in the chapter "out of the frying pan into the fire".

I am just curious about the vast amount of "unmarked settlements" in Middle-earth. Did they exist, and what were they like? And where were they located?

Tauriel (as her hair catches during BO5A)- Ah, now I understand why you keep your beard so short, master Kili!
Kili: Um, because it grows slowly? (glares at her for perceived insult)
Tauriel: Because your arrows don't get tangled in your *^%*(^$%* beard every time you shoot! (more curses as it gets further tangled)
Kili: Um, YEAH! That's it! That's why I keep my beard short! (strides off triumphantly with a huge grin on his face, still shooting arrows as the cursing and tangles continues behind him)

Tauriel keeps fighting the tangles on the battlefield long after Dain takes the throne and Dale is rebuilt. Frodo takes the ring to Morder and once Sauron is defeated she FINALLY gets the last arrow out.

(This post was edited by Cirashala on Aug 22 2013, 6:15am)


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Aug 22 2013, 10:26am

Post #2 of 8 (276 views)
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I think there were settlements in Forlindon and Harlingdon [In reply to] Can't Post

 


DeadRabbits
Lorien


Aug 22 2013, 10:56am

Post #3 of 8 (262 views)
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Forlindon and Harlindon were elvish settlements [In reply to] Can't Post

Apart from the mannish settlements and kingdoms already mentioned, there were the Easterlings' realms in Rhûn, the Lossoth in Forodwaith and the Dorwindrim(?) in Dorwinion. I also think Tolkien mentioned something about crude mannish cultures living along the coast and in the forests of southwestern Eriador.

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Aug 22 2013, 11:16am

Post #4 of 8 (273 views)
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The settlements were scattered, but they are clearly marked within Mirkwood... [In reply to] Can't Post

   
on the Map of Wilderland published in The Hobbit... Smile

]


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 22 2013, 11:36am

Post #5 of 8 (247 views)
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Dwarf trading [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is in "The Quest for Erebor" (found in Unfinished Tales) that it is implied that the Dwarves of Ered Luin got their foodstuffs from the Shire. The Dwarves of Thorin's company, in fact, are rather contemptuous of Hobbits because they see them as merely chubby little peaceable farmers, interested only in growing pipeweed and getting fatter. So yes, the two peoples knew of each other (Dwarves also likely passed through the edges of the Shire in their travels), but they weren't necessarily chummy. Smile

(Sorry I don't have UT with me to quote for you, but maybe someone else will.)



Quote


With the dwarves living in Ered Luin (Blue Mountains) after the fall of Erebor, and since we know they hate elves, who would the dwarves have traded with for foodstuffs? Surely they didn't make the
several hundred mile journey to Bree every single time they had to trade with men? The food would have spoiled before they arrived back! Did they trade with the Shire? Is that how Bilbo knew that those strange creatures at his door were dwarves?





"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 22 2013, 4:06pm

Post #6 of 8 (216 views)
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The Beornings only came about aftter 'The Hobbit' [In reply to] Can't Post

Before Bilbo's adventure, there were no Beornings, just Woodmen who had settled closer to Beorn's territory then most. When Beorn gained followers they would have settled in the north vales along the Anduin and probably above the Old Forest Road.

Thror's map shows that Woodmen still lived along the western eaves of Mirkwood at least up to the time it was made. In the film-continity, the forest wasn't corrupted until much later, so there's no reason to think that those settlements would have been abandoned. I am guessing that the eastern eaves of Mirkwood were uninhabited because they were vulnerable to raids not just by Orcs, but also bandits and Easterlings.

As far as I know, the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains did not have any special animosity towards Elves (with the possible exception of refugees from Erebor). I see no reason why they wouldn't have traded with the Elves of the Grey Havens as well as the Shirefolk. Just the same, they were probably fairly self-sufficient. There seem to have been few, if any, Mannish settlements in either Forlindon or Harlindon. Certainly, there do not seem to have been any Hobbits dwelling west of the Shire. Any Hobbit settlements outside of the Shire or Bree-land in the Third Age remain undocumented.

Karen Wynn Fonstad shows Dunland to be sparsely inhabited by Men in The Atlas of Middle-earth. Some are on the coast of Enedwaith with the rest spread out between the ranges of the Misty Mountains and the White Moutains.


Quote

We also know that there had to be some settlements of men somewhere near the eagle's eyrie, because they were afraid to take the company any further than the Carrock, both because they were not beasts of burden and also because they feared the arrows from the lands of men that they got their dinners from (sheep), and we also know from the book that the wargs were meeting to plan a raid on a human village when the company stumbled upon them in the chapter "out of the frying pan into the fire".



Such settlements need not have been very near to Eagles' Eyrie, but there were certainly Men dwelling near enough to the Misty Mountains that the Goblins and Wargs could carry out raids on them.

The 'Thematic Maps" section at the back of The Atlas of Middle-earth covers populations in the First, Second and Third Ages of Middle-earth. It might answer some more of your questions.


'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 22 2013, 4:07pm)


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Aug 23 2013, 11:14pm

Post #7 of 8 (152 views)
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Unmarked settlements [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sure there were many unmarked settlements throughout Middle-earth. When looking at the maps, one has to take two things into consideration:

1. The maps only show the areas most important to the stories. Tolkien didn't have the time or interest in completely mapping out areas that never even feature in the plot of his tales.

2. In Middle-earth continuity, the maps were presumably made by cartographers of the Westlands, most likely Elves or Dunedain. Unless they had close relations with a group of people or had traveled those lands, certain areas would be mostly blank spots on their maps. The Free Peoples would not have much cause to visit openly hostile lands or dangerous wilderness areas.

I would assume that there were many settlements in those blank spots. There had to be settlements for the Rangers and peasants of Eriador, the Men of Dunland, the Woodmen of Mirkwood, the Beornings of Rhovanion, the Lossoth of Forochel, the Easterlings of Rhun and Khand, the Men of Harad, etc. And that's just for Men. The Elves must have had towns in Lindon, Thorin's Hall and other Dwarvish settlements were said to be somewhere in Ered Luin, etc. But most of these were not important to Tolkien's stories or likely to be on a map made by people whose focus was on the major settlements of the West.


(This post was edited by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Aug 23 2013, 11:17pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Aug 24 2013, 6:37am

Post #8 of 8 (98 views)
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There were also the ancestors of the Rohirrim, the Éothéod or Northmen.. [In reply to] Can't Post

As mentioned in UT "Cirion and Eorl" and the LotR Appendices,





Quote




Unfinished Tales tells how the Éothéod arose following the Battle of the Plain fought by Gondor and the Northmen against the Easterlings in the plains south of Mirkwood in T.A. 1856 Narmacil II of Gondor and Marhari, a chieftainof the Northmen, were killed in the battle. Marhari's son Marwhini withdrew with some survivors to the lower Vales of Anduin between the Carrock and the Gladden Fields. They were joined over time by other refugees from several groups of Northmen, and formed a coherent organisation with Marwhini as its leader.

Some hundred years later, in TA. 1977, Frumgar led the Éothéod northward to the upper Vales of Anduin to seek more room, displacing the remnants of Angmar after its fall. The Éothéod occupied land north of Mirkwood, from the Misty Mountains as far as the Forest River. Their chief town ("their only fortified burg") was built where the Great River Anduin forms at the confluence of the rivers Langwell and Greylin and was called Framsburg for Frumgar's son Fram.



Quoted from Wikipedia

Note [5] is interesting: The name Framsburg appears on the map of Middle-earth drawn by Pauline Baynes in consultation with Tolkien, but nowhere in Tolkien's own writing.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort

 
 

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