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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
A case-simply a case
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 21 2013, 8:18pm

Post #51 of 95 (316 views)
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If my guess is correct [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron isn't going to send an army to Erebor for gold or treasure he is going to send them to wipe out the free peoples of middle earth. Smaug's aligence is no longer a factor since Bard has already dispatched him. Sauron putting his boot down on the free people of middle earth is something which the BO5A was never, nor IMO should ever, be about. Thorin's greed led to his own demise in the Hobbit and personally I feel it should be left that way. The Necromacer's involvement changes that even in a small way which IMO is completely unnecessary. So even eluding to the Necromancer sending the troops makes no sense to me since the dragons aligence,( which in Tolkien's writings was only ever a fear of Gandalfs and never proven to be true), was a mute point at this time since he is dead. So why waste his troops that he would surely need later when he had regained enough strength to openly declare himself 10 years later in Mordor. So IMO making Sauron in charge of the attack by the orcs upon Erebor is pretty pointless and the cause of the BO5A should be left as it was in the book IMO


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 21 2013, 8:31pm

Post #52 of 95 (297 views)
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Sauron [In reply to] Can't Post

It's still just too much for me, I think. I just love the way things work in the book with their goblin exploits way back at the beginning coming back and actually saving all the "good" people from massacring each other. If they're already being chased and Sauron is orchestrating it, it looses something, I think.

Also, there were rumors (or speculation) a while ago of Sauron reanimating Smaug's corpse. That would be awful. *barf*

THE SONG OF TUOR
Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


tolktolk
Lorien

Aug 21 2013, 8:47pm

Post #53 of 95 (293 views)
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If you are meaning my post [In reply to] Can't Post

I certainly wouldn't attack or "blame" any actor or actress - they are just doing their jobs. My concern is the amount of extraneous plotlines being added to these movies, to the detriment of the core stories and characters. I am hardly unusual in thinking this already happened in the first film, and from what I am seeing, the next films appear to be following the same pattern.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 21 2013, 8:57pm

Post #54 of 95 (308 views)
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At this point [In reply to] Can't Post

nobody knows how much she is going to be in the film but from the scenes we have seen so far she will have way much more time on screen than 10 minutes. 10 minutes and nothing more of Tauriel on screen to me would be a dream come trueTongue Personally the less we see of her the better IMO.

But at this point it looks like she will be in the spider scene, time in the dungeons of Thranduil, Torturing a Orc while Thranduil looks on, chasing the dwarfs to Laketown, and who knows what else. Like I said above 10 minutes and nothing more of Tauriel would be a dream come true for me Wink

As to her involvement in TABA hopefully she gets killed of as quickly as possible Angelic LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by sinister71 on Aug 21 2013, 8:58pm)


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 9:12pm

Post #55 of 95 (335 views)
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Mary Sue D & D et al [In reply to] Can't Post

It is terribly easily to simply comment on the commenters but I find it fascinating to look strategically at peoples general motivation for disapproval.

There are a number of people who believe any deviation from the source is unacceptable and will simply separate out the real from what the call the fan fic. There really is no defence against such concerns.

However there are also those whom believe an adaption/ reimagining is an entirely legitimate pursuit. They simply look at the quality of the adaption the additional ingredients and the like, and weigh them up and consider whether they are within the spirit of Tolkien.

I think the idea of putting on screen a very different wizard with his very own idiosyncrasies is exactly right, I imagined all five to be highly distinctive. So Radagast is in the spirit of Tolkien. Whether when one analysis's all of his portrayal it adds up to a perfect fit is different for each one of us.

Tauriel will be influenced by a number of factors, strategically she is out of the same DNA as Legolas. Legolas has already set the bar for the Wood Elves in LOTR. Thranduil will reflect off Legolas as his father and Tauriel will be a younger less noble, less wise version of Legolas. Put simply the compass for these wood elves is Legolas they will also relate to the Silvan Elves of Lorien as they are out of the same racial mould. Tactically Tauriel will like Legolas and Thranduil be driven by her reaction to the coming of the Dwarf Company and the political consequences of their quest. She will reflect one fragment, particular point of view, of the Wood Elves view of these incomers. Her personal motivation and actions will be driven by whom she is, the Captain of The Guard and her emotional allegiance for someone. At the end of the films she will be changed by the experience possibly even slain.

Now if all that happens in a balanced way and her arc is a natural reaction to the coming of the company nobody will even notice whether she is canon or not if they just react instinctively to the story and the story telling works.

If her behaviour is token or disproportionate to her inherent potential as a character or even becomes the centre of the story in a way that over balances the narrative then we will have what I think I understand to be a Mary Sue, a wish fulfilment insertion.

As an aside I had no idea before tonight what A Mary Sue character was but having read up on it I immediately thought of the early episodes of Star Trek Next Generation and Wesley.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Thranderz
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 9:35pm

Post #56 of 95 (302 views)
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My thoughts exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

I couldn't put it better myself and those are my exact thoughts on these matters! Wow, just wow, I can't believe someone thinks EXACTLY what I do. Blush

All we can do is wait until December and see how it turns out! Smile

I simply walked into Mordor.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 21 2013, 10:22pm

Post #57 of 95 (265 views)
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Let me elaborate, for greed is certainly the prime mover in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Ultimate cause of this entire conflict: Thorin & Co. want treasure. We should set aside any concept of a "rightful claim" to this treasure. It had been sitting comfortably in Smaug's loving embrace for centuries. By this point it is a dragon hoard, plane and simple. Do the dwarves need it? No. They have their own livelihoods now. Only Thorin remembers the sack of his home. Do they have any sort of plan for dealing with the dragon when they arrive? No. Are they willing to risk the skin of their burglar in a plainly ill-advised treasure hunt? Absolutely. We can rightly say, then, that the dwarves were acting with no regard for possible consequences of their actions. Do individual dwarves possibly harbor doubts as to the moral dilemma they are getting themselves into? Perhaps, but they go through with their plan and therefore must bear a large share of the blame for the deaths of the Laketowners and those who fell in defense of the mountain against the goblins.

With that in mind, we'll turn to more immediate causes of the battle. First: the greed of Thranduil and his people (he may be a decent elf at heart and justified marching on the mountain in support of the Laketowners, but even he was initially spurred out of desire for laying claim to the mountain's wealth. Bard and his people can perhaps be forgiven in light of their present circumstances, but they still decide to lay siege to the mountain rather than devote all their time and effort rebuilding. Granted, that gold would go a long way in restoring the wealth of their people, but what is money when your people have nowhere to live and are living off elven charity? Thorin may have acted like a stubborn mule, but starving him out was just as cruel.

Dain and his men arrive on the scene and throw all this into turmoil. What the elves and men may have initially believed was a silly matter of starving out some travel-weary dwarven hobos, now had escalated into an armed confrontation. And what do they do? Fight. Utter foolishness. Even Gandalf deserves some of the blame here.

Which raises a big question. Bilbo sees Gandalf in the camp of the elves and Laketowners, so apparently he's been holed up with them for a while. And yet he waits until the very moment that the arrows begin to fly to intervene and inform everyone of Bolg's approach. It's as if he is testing them to see just how far the three armies will go to get this treasure. I suppose you don't need to read it this way, but I take this as Tolkien's way of showing to what degree of wretchedness the forces of "good" could be reduced to when faced with a truly inescapable lure of the dragon hoard.

Enter the goblins, the ironic saving grace of the "good" cause. The forces of good put aside their differences and fight the horde, but this does not absolve them of their guilt.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 21 2013, 10:25pm

Post #58 of 95 (247 views)
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I see your point [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno, I suppose I just disagree with this direction they're taking the battle. I certainly don't mind that they're making it bigger and more spectacular, and I enjoy Armitage's Thorin, but I just want the book's original message to shine throughUnsure

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Aug 21 2013, 10:30pm

Post #59 of 95 (247 views)
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This [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's still just too much for me, I think. I just love the way things work in the book with their goblin exploits way back at the beginning coming back and actually saving all the "good" people from massacring each other. If they're already being chased and Sauron is orchestrating it, it looses something, I think. *barf*


You hit the nail on the head! I wholeheartedly agree.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


DjU
Lorien

Aug 21 2013, 11:24pm

Post #60 of 95 (232 views)
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Loki [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Look at Loki's popularity. Biggest jerk in movies in a long time, who was seriously humiliated in the "puny God!" beatdown by Hulk, and yet arguably the most popular movie character of this decade.


Can't help but think your hilariously overplaying the Loki card there. 'most popular movie character of this decade' I take it we mean 2011-2013 and still counting, otherwise... Laugh Laugh


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 22 2013, 1:17am

Post #61 of 95 (237 views)
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Thanks, Elessar [In reply to] Can't Post

I wanted to explain in a respectful way, my fears. It does seem like I've made up my mind about Tauriel. I can be a bit on the negative side. I have a tendency to "expect the worst, but hope for the best". With everything I've been seeing and hearing, I went once again to that mantra, which I don't recommend using. Having said that, I am looking forward to The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug, and I really want to love it, and hopefully I will. And perhaps maybe Tauriel will be better than I thought, and I could like her. Alfrid too hopefully.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 22 2013, 1:21am

Post #62 of 95 (232 views)
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What Eleniel and jtarkey said [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think I'm building straw men. I simply stated my fears, and they certainly seem negative because I tend to think that way at times. I'm a very anxious person, and unforunately negativity comes too easy for me. I love The Hobbit, and would feel heartbroken, if some of my fave canon characters didn't get their chance. And just like how you've already made Tauriel you're favorite elf, doesn't that mean a person can her their least favorite, or even disliked based on what they've seen?


Elessar
Valinor


Aug 22 2013, 1:21am

Post #63 of 95 (228 views)
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You're welcome [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought you did. I really didn't feel you we're talking down to anyone who is feeling positive nor did you use smilies in a way that comes across that way. It is appreciated. I tend to be more of a half glass full type of person so I do understand having a certain mindset. I hope you end up liking it as well.

PS: I see you're from Missouri. Nice to see someone else from Missouri. Cool



(This post was edited by Elessar on Aug 22 2013, 1:28am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 22 2013, 1:25am

Post #64 of 95 (236 views)
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Thanks Dormouse [In reply to] Can't Post

As I've already said to Elessar, I am looking forward to The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug, and really want to love it, and hopefully I will. And maybe Tauriel (and Alfrid) will be better than I think, and maybe I will like them.
It is prejudgement, but hopefully that prejdgement will be proven wrong-I can't tell you how much I don't want to be right for once.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2013, 1:26am

Post #65 of 95 (232 views)
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I know exactly how you feel Ziggy [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm the same way probably a bit more vocal but feel the same exact way Wink


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 22 2013, 1:29am

Post #66 of 95 (244 views)
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What?! [In reply to] Can't Post

They're giving her Glorfindel's powers!? That's blasphemy! First they leave Glorfindel out, and now this? That poor elf, he is so abused. That's ourageous! I want justice for Glorfindel. That's too much.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Aug 22 2013, 1:37am

Post #67 of 95 (217 views)
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Thanks, sinister [In reply to] Can't Post

The purpose of my post, was to get those who are pro-Tauriel to understand some of the fears I, and possibly other anti-Tauriel people have about the character. I wanted to let them know where I was coming from, and why I felt the way I did, and what things led up to me thinking and feeling that way. Glad you liked my post, and hopefully it will help douse out the negative arguments between the pro-Tauriel and anti-Tauriel people, and get others to understand, even if they don't agree.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Aug 22 2013, 1:42am

Post #68 of 95 (223 views)
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Yeah I heard [In reply to] Can't Post

they were gonna have her give his prophecy... I agree sacrilege Mad Talk about them giving a character no respect CrazyWink

I really hope its just rumor and not true


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 1:47am

Post #69 of 95 (234 views)
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Relax guys, there is another interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

As I posted a while back, Tauriel herself may not make the prophecy about the Witch King (if, indeed, this is what PB was hinting about). It could well be that Galadriel takes Glorfindel's role, while Tauriel takes Earnur's role. So it could happen like this: at the end of the Dol Guldur battle, the Witch King rides up, and Tauriel proceeds to stick him with 8-10 arrows. Said Witch King, now looking like a black porcupine, laughs his evil laugh. Galadriel says something like "Stay your hand, daughter of Mirkwood; far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of a man." So you have a females-to-females synchronicity set up for ROTK 60 years later.

Thus Glorfindel fans might scream about yet another scene lost to a female elf, but it will be the most powerful of those elves who makes the prophecy.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Semper Fi
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 1:55am

Post #70 of 95 (211 views)
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Of course [In reply to] Can't Post

Though considering they'll make kazillions of those movies, Thor and Avengers and everything in between, 2011-2019 is doable. Tongue

My point is that character of a handsome hero has changed with colorful ones such as Sparrow and Tony Stark in the movies, and Sherlock on TV, while slapstick moments are no more taboo for handsome villains either. So I really don't get it why Thorin is turned into a generic tortured soul that was popular between 2000 - 2003. The character isn't like that in the book. With the exception of Bored, I mean Bard, who is a classic hero, everyone else is politically incorrect hero - Bilbo is vengeful, grumpy and steals Arkenstone to get even, Thorin treats Bilbo like crap, makes self-praising monologues that everyone tunes out of, has bad temper, is greedy and ready to get the party killed for his own self-serving needs. Thranduil is drunk, obnoxious and also very greedy. Those are the good guys. That's quite an interesting gang and very different from classic heroism of LOTR that worked for that story. Hobbit's more unusual protagonists work for Hobbit story. Oh well.

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards



Semper Fi
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 2:06am

Post #71 of 95 (220 views)
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I never got the outrage over Glorfiendel's omission [In reply to] Can't Post

He only had that one scene so losing him was really no big deal. I'm actually surprised that there was far less outrage over robbing Frodo of his only defiant moment that made him less of a wimp than he came off in the movies. When he gathers all his strength to defy the Nine with "By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall neither have the ring nor me!" It's such a big character moment because it shows that he had courage and strength that became less and less apparent on the surface as the Ring consumed him. They could have Arwen bring him to the Ford, than Frodo gives his defiant line and then Arwen summons waters of Bruinen. But instead of Frodo's defiance, we got some forgettable Girl Power line from her. Crazy

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards



marillaraina
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 4:59am

Post #72 of 95 (208 views)
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The only [In reply to] Can't Post

part of that quote which is Turner's is this


Quote
'I guess he knows nothing can ever happen,' he explains. 'She's about 20ft tall and he's only two!'


The other part is written by the author of the article. Who knows what context Aidan Turner's "answer" could have been got in. Turner's words alone make it sound like nothing more than crush that goes nowhere, maybe he tries to talk to her once or twice and she ignores him or makes a crack about his height.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 6:32am

Post #73 of 95 (189 views)
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Exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

But somehow people ignored that and it all got blown out of proportion.

I think some of the light comedy might come from Fili as well. He might notice the "look" in Kili's eyes and make some remark:

"You always did like the tall ones.".

"Shall I get you a box?"


Quote
The other part is written by the author of the article. Who knows what context Aidan Turner's "answer" could have been got in. Turner's words alone make it sound like nothing more than crush that goes nowhere, maybe he tries to talk to her once or twice and she ignores him or makes a crack about his height.


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.




Semper Fi
Rohan


Aug 22 2013, 10:48am

Post #74 of 95 (174 views)
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Hey! 20ft tall woman and 2ft tall man didn't stop Tom and Nicole and TomKat [In reply to] Can't Post

from happening. Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer, the Chief of Inglorious Elfguards



Elthir
Gondor

Aug 22 2013, 12:21pm

Post #75 of 95 (173 views)
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Turner or not... [In reply to] Can't Post

[first of all I can't load the page again [Heirs of Durin] to see the actual article, but I'll take your word for it]... yet if the reporter truly went in knowing nothing, one would naturally enough assume that this line of 'pursuing Tauriel' came from Turner or someone in the know.

I mean obviously there is some reason for the reporter to say what he/she said, and as Turner doesn't deny that Kili is 'pursuing' Tauriel and the reader has no real reason to believe this is incorrect [again, he must be responding to something 'about' Kili and Tauriel so why assume the reporter is way off here]...

So yes, one can easily say that some are blowing this 'out of proportion' -- and perhaps some are [depends upon who is saying what when it comes to proportion], but it is based on an article written by a person about whom it is naturally assumed has an inside track on the story, at least in some basic way.

If it proves to be misleading or simply incorrect or only a joke, then it's misleading, or incorrect. Doesn't matter if Turner or the reporter said it, to my mind one naturally assumes there is something 'fairly substantial' to base the statement upon that Kili is 'pursuing' Tauriel.

No one would say that Gimli pursued Galadriel for instance.

And yes I agree with the general caution of wait and see what is really meant, or 'maybe the reporter knows nothing', or it's all out of context, or similar. And assumptions are assumptions after all; but these tidbits tossed from the press are designed to fuel speculation, and in my opinion this is not simply a case of the reader being wholly at fault for speculating about a 'love interest' of some measure.

For example it's rather different from Jackson saying Legolas and Tauriel will not have a romance -- to be then interpreted as 'there is a romance, just not with Legolas'. That would, to my mind, be the reader making an assumption without a real suggestion.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Aug 22 2013, 12:30pm)

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