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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
*Nerdy question* How did Sauron create the One Ring and his armor in Mt.Doom?

Remus
Lorien

Aug 20 2013, 2:22pm

Post #1 of 10 (1115 views)
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*Nerdy question* How did Sauron create the One Ring and his armor in Mt.Doom? Can't Post

So in the movie we just see Sauron in the prologue with Galadriel talking, Sauron standing already inside Mount Doom (Orodruin) with his armor on and the one ring. And we see no anvil nor a hammer.


So did Sauron, being a Maiar (Godlike being), did he create the One Ring just inside Mount Doom from just the air? Like reaching his arms up and somehow got it built with just his powers? And did he forge his own armor or did his orcs do it? I thought it would be cool if Sauron, being a master of blacksmithing, creating his own armor. But then again, we see no Blacksmith inside Mount Doom.

So my guess is that Sauron created everything from nothing with his bare hands? Like a summoning spell. He summoned his armor and his ring onto him.


Anyone know something i dont? Do we know this or is it just me going TOO deep?


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Aug 20 2013, 4:57pm

Post #2 of 10 (914 views)
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We don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never goes into detail about how the Rings of Power were created. It's meant to be mysterious, some arcane art known only to a few. I doubt that Sauron summoned or willed the Ring into existence. If he could just make Rings from nothing, why wouldn't he be always making more rather than expending time and energy to reclaim the One and the Seven? Also, there isn't a lot of abstract, something-from-nothing magic like that in Middle-earth. Only Eru (God) could do that in Tolkien's world. Generally, when magic is used in the books, it utilizes the existing materials of Arda. Beings like Valar and Maiar and Elves had knowledge of how to manipulate those materials, knowledge that mere mortals didn't possess.

Since the Ring was made in a volcano, that implies that extreme heat was needed. Just because we didn't see an anvil or forge in Mount Doom or get a description of them doesn't mean they weren't there. They could have been in another chamber or may have fallen into disuse by the time of LOTR. My guess would be that the Ring was made in a forge or mold and then spells were cast on it to imbue it with Sauron's spirit and power.

As for the armor, that's a movie invention. Tolkien never fully describes Sauron in the book so we don't know how he dressed. Black armor and a crown seems likely, given the descriptions of his master Morgoth, but we don't know. For the movie version, he could have forged the armor himself or made his servants do it for him.


Remus
Lorien

Aug 20 2013, 5:11pm

Post #3 of 10 (860 views)
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Ah, okey [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, i can really see that the forge and anvil and all the stuff needed for a blacksmith was in the walls in Mt.Doom. We only see the door/entrance to Orodruin and then the chamber, I guess there could be one or two small "rooms" in that tunnel.

Thank you for your answer.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2013, 5:31pm

Post #4 of 10 (880 views)
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No such thing as "too deep"! [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a wonderful snout of depth in Tolkien's works! That is the greatest part of their appeal to me, personally.

However, we can sometimes touch the bottom.

In reference to the visuals you have provided, it would seem that you are speaking of the Peter Jackson adaptation, note the use of the word --adaptation. There could be many different answers, depending upon the version in question, and I will attempt to answer some of them.

Going from PJ's adaptation, he could have used the heat, merely to activate the power if the Ring, or he could have just forged it at that instant, using non-physical means. There is really a lot to be speculated upon in this version, as it leaves much to the imagination. There is no time to cover every fact in a movie, and something is lost, inevitably.

If we dig into the books, we can possibly get a more comprehensive answer. It is said that it WAS forged in Mt.Doom, but that it was chanted over by Sauron, and that the Elves overheard it. There are many ways to reconcile the facts, perhaps he forged the Ring first, in intense heat, to make it harder to destroy? What good would it be if it was easily destroyed? Then he might have gone back to the forges, to put his power into it, or to be near the Rings he wanted to enslaved?

There is still much doubt, as the exact process is not elaborated upon, but this is certain, he forged it in Mt. Doom, and chanted over it in the forges of Celebrimor, revealing his designs to the Elves. How, or in which order he proceeded, is unclear, but it is to be taken as true

As to armor, the books say nothing, so it was left to PJ, who has left the explanation open to us.

No RIGHT, or WRONG answers, just different interpretations if the unknown.


Remus
Lorien

Aug 20 2013, 6:56pm

Post #5 of 10 (847 views)
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Didn't know that [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh, He said his words of the one Ring (Azh nazh grimbatul phrase) in Celembrimbor??? That wasn't smart...


I didn't know that. Wow. Shocked


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2013, 7:33pm

Post #6 of 10 (866 views)
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Errata corrected [In reply to] Can't Post

As has been pointed out to me elsewhere, it is NOT said that he spoke the words close by Celebrimbor. It simply states that 'he was aware' of him, and 'heard him from afar'. Perhaps, he did not hear him, but was 'aware' of another will, trying to dominate his.

Apologies for the error.

Either way he gave himself away.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Aug 20 2013, 7:34pm

Post #7 of 10 (847 views)
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In Eregion [In reply to] Can't Post

He chanted over the Rings in Eregion. Celebrimbor was a person, the master elf-smith of Eregion.

Not sure if he did the Ring-verse (Ash nazg gimbatul, etc.) there. As you said, that wouldn't be smart. If the Elves could translate it, they'd know he was duping them. Maybe they overheard some other chants and spells that imbued the Rings with power and then knew how to do it themselves with the Three Elven Rings. Once those were made, they could likely sense the power of the One and realized they'd been tricked.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 20 2013, 7:56pm

Post #8 of 10 (852 views)
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I posted a topic in the RR [In reply to] Can't Post

ME logistics, and squire gave a good answer, correcting my misconceptions.

I don't know how to put in a link, so I'll just paste the relevant bit here:




Squire's post

...... I wonder if you're thinking that Celebrimbor heard Sauron speak the Ring-Spell in person - that is, while Celebrimbor was putting in some hours at an Elven forge in Hollin, where the Elven Rings were made, he just happened to overhear Sauron composing some treacherous off-the-cuff poetry the next forge over. But I always thought that Celebrimbor 'overheard' Sauron complete the One Ring, via the Spell, through some kind of ring-enabled telepathy: Celebrimbor in Hollin 'heard' Sauron at Mt. Doom. That's what Elrond suggests in LotR:

For in that time [Sauron] was not yet evil to behold, and [the Elves] received his aid and grew mighty in craft, whereas he learned all their secrets, and betrayed them, and forged secretly in the Mountain of Fire the One Ring to be their master. But Celebrimbor was aware of him, and hid the Three which he had made; (LotR II.2)

Gandalf adds the detail that Celebrimbor actually heard the words of the Spell "from afar":

'For in the day that Sauron first put on the One, Celebrimbor, maker of the Three, was aware of him, and from afar he heard him speak these words, and so his evil purposes were revealed.' (LotR II.2)

As for the timing, well, as with everything that happened in the Second Age it's very vague. According the Tale of Years in the LotR Appendices:

c. 1000 Sauron, alarmed by the growing power of the Númenoreans, chooses Mordor as a land to make into a stronghold. He begins the building of Barad-dûr.
1075 Tar-Ancalimë becomes the first Ruling Queen of Númenor.
1200 Sauron endeavours to seduce the Eldar. Gil-galad refuses to treat with him; but the smiths of Eregion are won over. The Númenoreans begin to make permanent havens.
c. 1500 The Elven-smiths instructed by Sauron reach the height of their skill. They begin the forging of the Rings of Power.
c. 1590 The Three Rings are completed in Eregion.
c. 1600 Sauron forges the One Ring in Orodruin. He completes the Barad-dûr. Celebrimbor perceives the designs of Sauron.
1693 War of the Elves and Sauron begins. The Three Rings are hidden.(LotR, App. B)

The timing is merely suggestive, but certainly there appears to be a ten year period between the time the Three Rings were completed around 1590, and the time Sauron put the One Ring together in Mt. Doom in 1600. That's a fairly cold trail to try to follow - a lot can happen in ten years. Why didn't the Elves try to stop Sauron from going to Mordor? As I remember, Sauron was 'Annatar, Lord of Gifts' as far as the Elven Smiths were concerned, and like most wizard types in the story, his comings and goings were probably regarded as nobody's business. The Elves certainly didn't suspect that he was plotting to subvert their Ring project and enslave them, so why would they try to stop him from going where he would? Meanwhile according to the chronology and the stories we have, the Numenoreans had little to do with the politics of Middle-earth away from the coast lines at this time, and would have had no real knowledge of Mordor or indeed of anything involving the Rings.......


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 1:01am

Post #9 of 10 (831 views)
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Me tossing out a random tidbit here [In reply to] Can't Post

Other wonderful people have already addressed how the Ring came to be in the books, as far as that issue is able to be addressed. I'll just assume myself that Sauron had a forge off to one side, and what we see in the movie is just him holding up his Ring and saying for the very first time, "My precious..."

[Then, of course, he recites the whole, "Ash nazg..." poem. Smile

Now, if you're looking for how he created the Ring in the *adaptation*, tie-in books for the movies have a totally made-up answer for you. In The Lord of the Rings: Weapons and Warfare, a small note about Sauron near the end says he held some gold in his hand. The heat from his hand melted the gold. Then, he stabbed a knife down into the middle of the gold. The blood and gold congealed into the Ring.

Crazy Lovely, isn't it?

The dagger apparently melted away. I'm not sure how Sauron managed not to stab straight through his hand (or maybe he just has uber Maia healing powers) or how the gold formed a perfect circular shape, although the knife would have cut out the hole in the middle. (Does that mean the knife would have been perfectly circular itself???) Also, it doesn't answer how the writing got on the Ring, nor why Sauron had to be at Mount Doom.

Laugh My best guess is that whoever wrote that passage thought it sounded cool and went with it without thinking about it. And it does sound cool. It just doesn't make any sense. But I'm not joking. The book really does say that - page 211.

The book also leaves it ambiguous as to whether the designers intended for Sauron to have fashioned his armor and mace or for his minions to have forged it for him. The possibility that Sauron brought his mace with him from Thangorodrim is thrown out - I wonder where he left it between the fall of Morgoth and the end of the Second Age?! Does Mordor have E-Z Storage units?? Laugh

Anyway, I just thought this was amusing and that I would throw it out here. In reality, I'd say Sauron didn't fool around with a round-bladed dagger, blood magic, and a handful of gold. He did it the old-fashioned way on an anvil somewhere in Mount Doom that we just don't see.

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Remus
Lorien

Aug 21 2013, 7:06am

Post #10 of 10 (865 views)
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I know i know! [In reply to] Can't Post

I had that book when i was a kid. Oh, the memories. I had like every LOTR tie-in movie book! I love Weapons & Warfare. I liked it. I think that is kinda cool. If i remember correctly when Sauron plunged the dagger into the gold in his hand, the dagger exploded, like Gimlis axe did on the Council of Elrond in the Fellowship of the Ring.


I like it. But i think i am going with you, that Sauron did it the old fashioned way. Smile

 
 

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