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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
SCOD: Arwen's Vision

Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Aug 19 2013, 5:22pm

Post #1 of 17 (980 views)
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SCOD: Arwen's Vision Can't Post

Welcome to my first Screencap Of The Day.


Here are the images:





Full-sized images can be found here and here.

What struck me is that both scenes are of a child running to a father.



1. What are your thoughts about the props and positioning of characters?

2. The first picture is very green, while the second has a lot of autumnal colours.
What do you think this symbolises? Does it perhaps symbolise Arwen’s choice?


3. I think the autumn colours represent the 'time of the Elves being over' and, as Galadriel said, the time approaching for the ‘dominion of men
Does this scene help convey that, or does Arwen’s vision and decision to ride back suggest that a little bit of Elven magic is still and always will exist in Middle Earth?


4. Any thoughts about the music played in the background?

5. Any other thoughts or comments about this scene?

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


dijomaja
Lorien

Aug 20 2013, 12:10pm

Post #2 of 17 (629 views)
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nice choices [In reply to] Can't Post

I never noticed how well the trees in the first shot blend into the columns in the palace. The trees on the far left are dark, with rough bark, blending into smooth-barked grey trees and then white birches next to the white columns. Just as the woodland scene fades into the palace there's a potted tree against the stone.

The Rivendell-Autumn theme was pretty noticeable in FOTR but it was early Autumn with golden light and falling leaves. This Rivendell shot is "late autumn" which matches the point in the story.

I hadn't noticed that both scenes involve children running to fathers. If that wasn't intentional, it's certainly a meaningful coincidence.

A personal note: watching at home, my (then-) young son saw the child running to be picked up by his father and said, "That's me and you". I hastened to point out to his older sister that, while I could no longer pick her straight up into the air, we had done that plenty of times. As for the music, on another occasion, both kids recalled the first scene from listening to the musical score one day long after. Considering that my daughter is more of a Harry Potter fan and my son fast-forwards through LOTR to get to the battles, that must be a powerful combination of scene and music.


elaen32
Gondor


Aug 20 2013, 7:46pm

Post #3 of 17 (596 views)
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Love this scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it's made up, not canon etc- but it is beautiful. I love the way the trees blend into the columns in the first picture. I also note the light flowing into Minas Tirith behind Aragorn in the 1st picture, compared to the dimming of light in Rivendell and Elrond appearing to almost fade into the background. Rivendell is essentially dying, while there is still a chance for Minas Tirith to come back to life and flower again.
The music here is so poignant and yearning that it always brings a lump to my throat.


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Loresilme
Valinor


Aug 20 2013, 9:47pm

Post #4 of 17 (599 views)
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I never realized that! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
What struck me is that both scenes are of a child running to a father.


I love this scene so much, and yet I never made that connection! Child running to father - could the father ever say no to this child? As Arwen then runs to her father, and he does not refuse her wish now either. Amazing.

To me this is one of the most beautiful sequences in the trilogy. In fact, it might be that I haven't seen all that many films overall, but to me it's one of the most beautiful film moments I've ever seen / heard. I loved every second of it. Arwen, swaying on the horse, lulled into a mindset that allows her to have a vision...the exquisite music, the blurred boundaries between the two worlds, Aragorn's aged but happy face, and then Arwen's heartbreakingly perfect expression when she realizes who the child is - that barely perceptible look of shock, then she's tearful, and then her expression changes to resolve as she turns her horse around. It is hard to remember that Liv Tyler was - yes, acting, and that nothing was there before her, just all in the imagination.

I love how the woods slope upwards in the background so that the palace walls and arches fit right into it. And the sunlight shining so brightly through the gloom of the forest - and there's Estel - 'there is always hope' Aragorn, standing 'in the light'. All the greenery and new life in the vision then compared to the dry and dying, almost lifeless look of Rivendell. So very sad.


Faleel
Rohan

Aug 20 2013, 10:36pm

Post #5 of 17 (595 views)
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Autumn!? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it was more Winter....(but without snow of course...)


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 1:09am

Post #6 of 17 (600 views)
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Such a pretty scene... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. My thoughts on the props? Laugh Do you really want to know? Well, I'd like to know why Arwen just dumps her mantle on the ground. It gets me every time. Girl, did your parents ever teach you how to pick up after yourself?

2. The green definitely speaks about the coming dominion of men and the golden years of Gondor and Arnor that Aragorn will usher in. In contrast, Rivendell is all in gold in memories of the glory it used to enjoy, but which will never come again. Rivendell is hazy, like an old sepia photograph. The future is green and full of promise.

3. I sure hope a bit of Elven magic will remain forever in Middle-earth! Otherwise, I'm with Merry and Pippin (can't remember which one said it - I'm so embarrassed!) who don't like the idea of Legolas going to the havens: "If all Elf-folk leave Middle-earth, it will be a sad and dreary world for those of us left behind."

4. The music accompanying Arwen whenever she is on screen is always beautiful. The non-canonicity of the scenes sometimes throws me, but the music is always so beautiful... Heart It sounds absolutely delightful when you play it on the piano.

5. More random comments? I always have random comments. For instance, that bush to the left of Eldarion looks rather anemic. I mean, it looks like someone took a feather duster, stretched it out, and then stuck it on a stalk and planted it. Dunno why, but it bothers me. The plant to the left of Aragorn, on the other hand, looks much more realistic. Maybe the one next to Eldarion is just a type I am unfamiliar with? (And, you know, I had never noticed either bush until this SCOD!! Obviously, I need to watch ROTK some more.)

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


Meneldor
Tol Eressea


Aug 21 2013, 2:43pm

Post #7 of 17 (558 views)
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Arwen's mantle [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, I'd like to know why Arwen just dumps her mantle on the ground. It gets me every time. Girl, did your parents ever teach you how to pick up after yourself?



My assumption is that her mantle is a travelling cloak, and that dropping it means she has resolved not to travel the western road, but to stay in Middle Earth where her heart and destiny lie.

They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and his wonders in the deep.


Werde Spinner
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 2:56pm

Post #8 of 17 (557 views)
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Ooh, good idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

I never thought of that. That's very good symbolism!! Smile

"I had forgotten that. It is hard to be sure of anything among so many marvels. The world is all grown strange. Elf and Dwarf in company walk in our daily fields; and folk speak with the Lady of the Wood and yet live; and the Sword comes back to war that was broken in the long ages ere the fathers of our fathers rode into the Mark! How shall a man judge what to do in such times?"

"As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them, as much in the Golden Wood as in his own house."


FaramirAndEowynMorningStar
Rohan


Aug 21 2013, 6:00pm

Post #9 of 17 (555 views)
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The mantle... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I'd like to know why Arwen just dumps her mantle on the ground. It gets me every time. Girl, did your parents ever teach you how to pick up after yourself?


Firstly: If you were Arwen, and you were angry you wouldn't say to yourself "I'm going to hang this cloak up first and then confront my father," now would you? Tongue

Secondly: It tells you about her emotions. The fact that she's angry, for starters, is probably a reason why she just took it off like that. But the other reason, I think, is more of a symbolic reason (for audience purposes) - that she is going to reveal to her father that she has seen a vision he has not told her about and seen her child.

....."Loyalty, Honor,
......A Willing Heart.
I can ask no more than that."

.... ~ Thorin Oakenshield


(This post was edited by FaramirAndEowynMorningStar on Aug 21 2013, 6:01pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 21 2013, 7:17pm

Post #10 of 17 (544 views)
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It is Winter by the Calendar... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I thought it was more Winter....(but without snow of course...)



However, the late Third Age represents the Autumn of the Elves.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 21 2013, 8:44pm

Post #11 of 17 (534 views)
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I love these two scenes! [In reply to] Can't Post

In regards to colors and autumn, this is what I've said on a few occasions.


Quote
By the time we get to FOTR, the colors are much more muted, and the Elves are fewer and farther between. Then in TTT, the colors are even drearier - blues and browns mostly - and a whole host of Elves departs. Finally, in ROTK, nearly everything is brown and Rivendell has an almost dead look to it. Nearly all the Elves are gone; we only see Elrond and two smiths, and the whole place looks deserted.


The first part is in reference to the difference between AUJ and FOTR, but adding AUJ into the equation actually enhances the progression from bright and beautiful to dreary and dying. It's actually one of my favorite visual aspects of the films.

I'd never thought about the aspect of a child running to a father connecting these two scenes, but I'll take it a step even farther. Notice that Aragorn and Eldarion embrace, whereas Elrond and Arwen do not. A visual representation of their eventual separation?

THE SONG OF TUOR
Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Faleel
Rohan

Aug 21 2013, 10:36pm

Post #12 of 17 (531 views)
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AUJ to FOTR [In reply to] Can't Post

so in AUJ its summer, FOTR is Autumn, ROTK is Winter does that mean that TABA will be spring? or Autumn? or Winter again?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 21 2013, 11:53pm

Post #13 of 17 (518 views)
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TABA will be summer [In reply to] Can't Post

If we even go back to Rivendell, that is. And for clarification, I'm not talking about the physical seasons, I'm talking about the "Fading of the Elves" theme found in the book and the movies.

During the timeframe of The Hobbit (comprising AUJ - TABA), the elves are still in their heyday, and the colors of Rivendell reflect that. It's summery and full of life. Once we get to FOTR, though, it's the end of the Third Age, and the elves are leaving and fading. The color palate reflects that with the autumnal colors, and it just continues to progress through TTT and ROTK.

THE SONG OF TUOR
Only the reeds were rustling, but a mist lay on the streams
Like a sea-roke drawn far inland, like a shred of salt sea-dreams.
'Twas in the Land of Willows that I heard th'unfathomed breath
Of the Horns of Ylmir calling - and shall hear them till my death.


Faleel
Rohan

Aug 22 2013, 1:12am

Post #14 of 17 (556 views)
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The Book says... [In reply to] Can't Post

That it was springtime when Bilbo and Gandalf returned, of course, that has nothing to do with how the colors will look, to convey the mood etc.


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Aug 22 2013, 12:30pm

Post #15 of 17 (507 views)
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I love how it cascades to the ground. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's such a beautiful moment. I agree with you it is symbolic. Cloaks are used symbolically to represent things being hidden. Here Arwen casts it off as a sign to the audience that the whole truth is about to be revealed.

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Silwen_Peredhil
Rivendell


Aug 22 2013, 12:45pm

Post #16 of 17 (521 views)
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This scene never fails to hold me spellbound. [In reply to] Can't Post

This indeed for me is one of the most beautiful scenes of the trilogy. Everything about it is done to perfection. I love every moment; the lighting, the facial expressions and the hauntingly beautiful music played in the background.

What's this? A Ranger caught off his guard?


Darkstone
Immortal


Aug 26 2013, 6:24pm

Post #17 of 17 (526 views)
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"I have become Earth's daughter." [In reply to] Can't Post

1. What are your thoughts about the props and positioning of characters?

Seems to form elements of a choral ode from Greek theater. That is, Eldarion (“Son of the Elves”) performs the antistrope, moving left to right. Then Arwen performs the strope, moving right to left. (The reversal is a sly reference to the transposition of future with the past, which in itself is a further reference to Tolkien’s original intent of writing a time travel tale.) Of course the missing scene of the triad is Elrond as the final epode, or the motionless center. But your omission is quite correct, as the theme here is that of vital movement, not tired inertia.


2. The first picture is very green, while the second has a lot of autumnal colours.
What do you think this symbolises?


The green may symbolize the Matrix. That is, actually Sauron wins by placing everyone in a computer program where they think they destroyed the ring and hobbits are now little fat button batteries unknowingly powering the mantle clocks of an evil civilization. But then generally green has a positive meaning in Tolkien. So it may refer to the person of King Elessar Telcontar himself. Elessar (“Elf-Stone”) is named after the green gemstone of the Elves. Telcontar (“Strider”) is named after his green garbed ranger persona of the North. Green itself is associated with vigor and life. So by choosing Eldarion, Arwen is choosing life.

The brown shows a world in autumn, in decline, facing the cold of winter. Old Anglo-Saxon warriors were wary of winter. They feared dying ingloriously in their beds of illness or infirmity. So they often marched off in the autumn to deliberately find a warrior’s honorable death in battle. Of course Arwen is no warrior, but similarly she chooses to die alive in Middle-earth rather than live stagnant in Valinor.


Does it perhaps symbolise Arwen’s choice?

Firiel looked from the river-bank,
one step daring;
then deep in clay her feet sank,
and she halted staring.
Slowly the elven-ship went by
whispering through the water;
'I cannot come!' they heard her cry.
'I was born Earth's daughter!'

-The Last Ship, JRR Tolkien

One can either be an Arwen (“Noble Lady”) or a Firiel (”Mortal Lady”).

I think Firiels have more fun.

I think Arwen thought so too.


3. I think the autumn colours represent the 'time of the Elves being over' and, as Galadriel said, the time approaching for the ‘dominion of men’
Does this scene help convey that, or does Arwen’s vision and decision to ride back suggest that a little bit of Elven magic is still and always will exist in Middle Earth?


The theme of domination is precisely the point. Previously Arwen’s own foresight has been overridden by her father’s dominance. Now she is outside his influence she can see her own future for herself, unclouded by the doubts induced by his care and concern for her. It kind of shows how when the Elves leave Men can finally find their own “magic”. Then again, since Arwen stays we can all say we have Elven blood thanks to her.

(I won’t mention we also share Orc blood.)


4. Any thoughts about the music played in the background?

Purty.



5. Any other thoughts or comments about this scene?

I like how the thick columns of Gondor match the thick boles of the forest. Also how back where Aragorn is the columns are more delicate. A nice union of Man and Elf.

Also Eldarion runs across well-manicured grass to a room decorated with potted plants. Nature in Gondor is strictly controlled. In Rivendell plants are allowed to overgrow everything, leaving the ground untidily strewn with leaves.

There’s little doubt Elessar will rule as a good King, imposing order while encouraging growth and protecting nature. The world will be a garden, not a wilderness.

And nicely spotted about the child running to the father in both!

******************************************
Once Gandalf dreamt he was a moth, a moth flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Gandalf. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakably Gandalf. But he didn't know if he was Gandalf who had dreamt he was a moth, or a moth dreaming he was Gandalf. Between Gandalf and a moth there must be some distinction! But really, there isn't, because he's actually Olórin dreaming he's both Gandalf *and* a moth!
-From Gandalfi: The Moth Dream

 
 

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