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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Elves and Orcs

KasDel
Rivendell


Aug 19 2013, 4:21am

Post #1 of 8 (340 views)
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Elves and Orcs Can't Post

Ok, Elves are immortal and Orcs are perverted Elves.... do Orcs retain their immortally?

This would at least explain how the Goblin King could recognize the swords Glamdring and Orcrist..

KasDel the Last

"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." Gildor


Ataahua
Superuser / Moderator


Aug 19 2013, 4:47am

Post #2 of 8 (241 views)
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Or [In reply to] Can't Post

the Orcs tell stories of Glamdring and Orcrist and can recognise them when the swords reappear. What do we know of Orc artworks and the ability to illustrate their tales, even if it's by murals?

We don't know if Orcs retained the immortality of Elves - Tolkien, as was his wont, gives us ambiguous comments and nothing definitive on the matter. I for one don't think it's a given as whatever process that twisted Elves into Orcs might well have broken the immortality factor as well.

So the answer is maybe ... and maybe not.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauronís master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ufthak
Rivendell


Aug 23 2013, 5:16pm

Post #3 of 8 (144 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

Things taken to support the 'usually immortal' theory is the sheer number of orcs (they can be bred fast but don't die unless killed) and things like Shagrat and Gorbag discussing 'the old days' with 'no big bosses' - which certainly indicates that they may remember a time before Sauron had risen to any form of power again.

"Who the hell are you?" he growled.
"I the hell am Harry," I said.
He pulled out his own gym bag and slammed the car door closed. "You always a wiseass?"
"No. Sometimes I'm asleep."

-Harry Dresden, 'Blood Rites', A Novel of The Dresden Files


CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 26 2013, 1:38pm

Post #4 of 8 (117 views)
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Older days [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that conversation about the time before big bosses (which would have to be after Morgoth fell in the War of Wrath and before Sauron rose again the 2nd Age, or possibly when Morgoth was in captivity in Valinor from his earlier defeat) sounds to me like it's in the context of first-person memories, not legends handed down over generations of mortal orcs. Nothing conclusive to prove that, but it's always sounded that way to me since my first read when I knew nothing about the larger legendarium, and on 1st read I didn't know enough about Arda's history to know how far back they were referencing so I didn't consider the timeline. It just appears that they were there. They exhibit what seems a personal nostalgia, not a learned one.

What do you all think of the Gift of Men? That's not something the Melkor could give to his creations, so perverted or not, it seems that Elf-Orcs would have to live forever in the torment of their degenerate status and couldn't die of old age. Which is an awful thought. As Maciliel once said, "Pity the Orcs." Though given Tolkien's ever-changing views on Orcs' origins (such as if they were perverted Men or came from mud), the mortality view is just as believable.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Aug 27 2013, 4:11am

Post #5 of 8 (105 views)
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ha! just saw this : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i love when my apostasy is quoted, thanks, cg.

i've had a bit of a wretched time these past few weeks with a job / project (a client not responding to requests for invoice payment), but last week i drew a line in the sand... which may not ultimately get those invoices paid, but that line will afford me some peace of mind and allow me to carve out some reading room thread reading this week. am looking forward to all the wonderful discussions you all have been having.

btw, the phrase "pity the orcs" is embroidered on a little boudoir pillow in curiousg's hidden chambers. i'm not the only apostate.


cheers ---

..


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


Aug 27 2013, 9:47am

Post #6 of 8 (116 views)
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Yes, I even bake muffins with cute frosted orc faces on them. [In reply to] Can't Post

You have outed me and my despicable habits. The subversive minx strikes again! If I had a cuddly dog, I'd name it Sauron, cuz he's my idea of a best friend. [That should be a Pollantir topic: "which Tolkien names have you used for your pets?"]

Argh!!! Sorry to hear about your client problems. It appears he still doesn't understand how economies work and that you have to pay for the things you hire people to do. I hope he'll pony up in the end. (Though I hesitate to mention ponies around you. Did I mention we have some on Tol Eressea, so you can one day leave the Grey Havens? Though we make pies out of them too, so our fondness for them tends to be more culinary than veterinary.)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Aug 27 2013, 1:26pm

Post #7 of 8 (105 views)
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YOU! SHALL NOT! MAKE PIES!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(.... out of ponies....)

yes, one day i will travel to tol eressea (but i think you will move on to valinor before i do, and we will still be sundered).

i love the grey havens. i can smell the sweet salt of the sea, i can espy the rolling, emerald hills of eriador, and i can (if i listen very closely on still nights) hear faint ripples of laughter and hobbit-song floating westward from the shire.

you could always hop on a swan boat and take a little sojourn here, btw.

re the tolkien pet names... i remember reading a letter by tolkien to someone who wanted to name some of her animals in middle earth fashion. he said that he thought names the equivalent of "noble bull" would be fine for a bull, but that naming them things like "frodo" and "aragorn" was not something he would support.

two of my cousins named their cats after tolkien characters (merry, pippin, bilbo).

re your orc muffins.... were you inspired by the martha stewart segment in which she baked sugar cookies in the shape of orcs? i thought the recipe she gave to get just the right color of "foul greenish-brackish-black" was a bit too time-consuming, and i wouldn't know where to get "shale fungus" ('tho some of the ingredients, like "slag" are more easily obtained).

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


Dec 18 2013, 5:30am

Post #8 of 8 (83 views)
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gg [In reply to] Can't Post

 

 photo book-500_zps64611551.jpg
I am fire... I am death. -Smaug

 
 

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