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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Where does Azog and Bolg get their army from? (for Bo5a)

boldog
Rohan

Aug 17 2013, 9:44pm

Post #1 of 10 (834 views)
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Where does Azog and Bolg get their army from? (for Bo5a) Can't Post

okay, I have been thinking of this for a while and have a lot to talk about it.
Based on what we know from various sources, these are some things that will happen in the next movie that contribute to my question.
1. Azog will persue the dwarves as far as the woodland realm (himself being there, from trailer), and even into laketown (Fimbul, from recent empire magazine)
2. Bolg will join up with Azog at some point (empire magazine)
3. Bolg works in Dol guldur (weather this has been changed or not, I cant say)
4. The white council assult may likely happen in the next film.

so with these in mind comes my discussion.
To begin with, if Bolg joins Azogs persuit, and accompanies him to woodland realm, what happens next. We know Azog wont die, and very unlikely Bolg will die in the next film. So if they are all the way in the east, where and how are they going to get an army in such a short span of time?!
the most likely canditates for an army are from either Gundabad (their actual race) Goblin town?, Moria, or Dol guldur.
But this leaves a very big hole in the plot. For starters, Dol guldur is a secret abandoned fortress, and from what we have seen I find it very unlikely that there will be a huge orc army lurking within it. So much for the Necromancer being a secret with an army of orcs in his domain! Now with, Moria, Gundabad, and goblin town, they are very far to the west, from where they have ended up in woodland realm. So how, in a very short amount of time, from the barrel escape, to the battle itself (which I think is only a few weeks) are the two going to retrieve an army from these nations. They will have to trek all the way back, which will take time, and then back to erebor, with a full army, which will be even slower. Plus the white council assult on Dol guldur, means that it is cleansed, and there would pretty much be no more evil there. Perhaps, when Bolg joins Azog in the next film, he already has an army with him, sent by the necromancer.

Either way all these theories are hurting my brain, and just lead to more questions that are too much to write in one thread. What do you all think of this? I find it to be quite controvertial, as it is a major arc of the story itself.

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Aug 17 2013, 10:00pm

Post #2 of 10 (476 views)
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Two suggestions for you [In reply to] Can't Post

1) Is Gundabad really so far? It is in the far North of the Misty Mountains, further North than even the Woodland Kingdom of the Elves. How far to the East it really lies is beyond my level of Tolkien lore, but as I doubt PJ will share this detail (if it is even known).Therefore, he can place it in the northeast of the Misty Mountains and thus make it reasonably close. If Azog suffers a defeat at Laketown/with the Elves he might naturally retreat to there; he could get messages there more quickly than he could trek there himself, via Warg.

2) I think it is possible that Bolg has already been assembling an army at the Necromancer's behest (in the PJ movieverse) in advance of these events, and specifically an army intended to march on the North. Here's how I see it - the wise old wizard Gandalf explains to his Council colleagues that his interest in Thorin's quest is to counter possible plans of the Enemy. Now, maybe Gandalf is paranoid like Saruman suggests. Or maybe he is completely right (as Galadriel seems to sense, with her talk of thingaalready set in motion), and the Enemy is already working on plans of the sort Gandalf fears! To my mind this could be both Azog being sent after Thorin, and Bolg being made to assemble an army.


Cirashala
Grey Havens


Aug 17 2013, 10:11pm

Post #3 of 10 (403 views)
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goblins [In reply to] Can't Post

perhaps the goblins chase them as well, though they skirt Mirkwood, after the GG is killed. That would put them not too far behind, and Azog/Bolg can always meet them halfway so to speak....

Tauriel (as her hair catches during BO5A)- Ah, now I understand why you keep your beard so short, master Kili!
Kili: Um, because it grows slowly? (glares at her for perceived insult)
Tauriel: Because your arrows don't get tangled in your *^%*(^$%* beard every time you shoot! (more curses as it gets further tangled)
Kili: Um, YEAH! That's it! That's why I keep my beard short! (strides off triumphantly with a huge grin on his face, still shooting arrows as the cursing and tangles continues behind him)

Tauriel keeps fighting the tangles on the battlefield long after Dain takes the throne and Dale is rebuilt. Frodo takes the ring to Morder and once Sauron is defeated she FINALLY gets the last arrow out.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Aug 18 2013, 3:38am

Post #4 of 10 (309 views)
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Battle Azanulbizar [In reply to] Can't Post

Facts, figures and quotes courtesy of Wiki Tolkien gateway -
*Possible Spoilers*
Acording to the books (not sure of movie timeline) the dwarves in a series of battles almost entirely wiped out the Misty Mountain Orcs/Goblins culminating in the utter rout of the orcs at what was also known as the Battle of the Dimrill Dale.
The orcs took roughly 75% casualties and were severely weakened for the next 140 or so years until the BO5A.

Presumably the orcs came from various settlements and strongholds repopulated in secrecy ... as the Company and Gandalf were suprised to find them on the high pass when they were crossing the mountains. Moria, Goblintown, and Mt Gundabad are the only 3 named settlements. Dol Guldur is another possibility, but as of yet we have no evidence in the books or movies that any significant force of orcs dwelt there, and if they did, only a few stragglers would likely be at the battle because the White Council attacked it prior to the BO5A.

As to the mobilization of the Orcs for the BO5A it says this -


Quote


When Dain's forces arrived, battle was almost joined between the two sides (now three armies were on the field) but at the last moment Gandalf intervened between the two and revealed that while they were bickering amongst themselves, the Orcs of the Misty Mountains and Grey Mountains under Bolg were using the opportunity to march against them. They had been incited by Gandalf's earlier slaying of the Great Goblin, but had now mobilized for a full-scale attack after hearing news of the death of the Dragon and the now relatively unguarded treasure hoard.[7] (The Clouds Burst)



Aside from the orcs (10 to 15 K horde estimated), a very large contingent of wargs accompanied the host presumably 1,000 or so.

Facing them was 500 Dwarves all veterans of the Dwarf/Goblin War, 200 or so Lake-men formed up on one spur, and over 1000 Elves on the other spur of the mountain. Not very good odds! Only Beorn and the eagles were able to turn the tide.

It is said that three quarters of the Orc warriors of the North were killed on that day, and would not recoup in strength until the War of the Ring many years later.

Hope that helps.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2013, 8:36am

Post #5 of 10 (141 views)
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Mount Gundabad [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1) Is Gundabad really so far? It is in the far North of the Misty Mountains, further North than even the Woodland Kingdom of the Elves. How far to the East it really lies is beyond my level of Tolkien lore, but as I doubt PJ will share this detail (if it is even known).Therefore, he can place it in the northeast of the Misty Mountains and thus make it reasonably close. If Azog suffers a defeat at Laketown/with the Elves he might naturally retreat to there; he could get messages there more quickly than he could trek there himself, via Warg.

2) I think it is possible that Bolg has already been assembling an army at the Necromancer's behest (in the PJ movieverse) in advance of these events, and specifically an army intended to march on the North. Here's how I see it - the wise old wizard Gandalf explains to his Council colleagues that his interest in Thorin's quest is to counter possible plans of the Enemy. Now, maybe Gandalf is paranoid like Saruman suggests. Or maybe he is completely right (as Galadriel seems to sense, with her talk of thingaalready set in motion), and the Enemy is already working on plans of the sort Gandalf fears! To my mind this could be both Azog being sent after Thorin, and Bolg being made to assemble an army.



1. Mount Gundabad is perhaps 100 miles west north-west of Mirkwood, where the Misty Mountains merge with the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains) to the west and the Mountains of Angmar to the east. It is probably around 160 miles or so north of Goblin-town.

2. It is entirely possible that the Necromancer has already started a plan for the North in motion, taking advantage of the death of the Great Goblin. He may want Bolg to assume leadership of the Orcs of the Misty Mountains, bringing them under his direct control. He may see this as his best bet to quickly conquer the North with or without the allegiance of Smaug.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Aug 19 2013, 1:40pm

Post #6 of 10 (88 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

For the more detailed geographic information. How far from Erebor does that place it, I wonder? Closer than Moria or Goblin-Town anyway, and in a location from which an army could march on Erebor without either going through Mirkwood, or needing to make a detour around it...


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Aug 19 2013, 3:07pm

Post #7 of 10 (92 views)
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Lookinhg at this map [In reply to] Can't Post

If you look at it our "places of evil" are this far away from Erebor:

1.) Mount Gundabad - "capital" of the Azogs people and his wargs
--> ~800 miles to Erebor

2.) Mount Gram - home of Goblins which attacked the Shire once (Gandalf mentioned the story in AUJ)
--> ~1100 miles to Erebor

3.) Moria (not sure if it's inhabited by Orcs at this time) - perhaps home of Gundabad Orcs
--> ~1100 miles to Erebor

4.) Goblin Town - home to a huge group of Goblins
--> 800 miles to Erebor

5.) Dol Guldur - secret lair of Sauron, his Nazgûl, bats, giant spiders, Bolg and perhaps even more Orcs and Trolls
--> ~500 miles to Erebor

6.) Ettenmoors - home of the (stone) Trolls (Gandalf mentioned it in AUJ)
--> ~900 miles to Erebor

Map of Wilderland


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2013, 3:08pm

Post #8 of 10 (84 views)
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Gundabad to Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
For the more detailed geographic information. How far from Erebor does that place it, I wonder? Closer than Moria or Goblin-Town anyway, and in a location from which an army could march on Erebor without either going through Mirkwood, or needing to make a detour around it...



Actually the distance from Mount Gundabad to Erebor should be about 340 miles as the crebain flies. It would be closer to 370 miles traveling around the northern eaves of Mirkwood, mostly through wasteland (the Narrows of the Grey Mountains).

By contrast, Goblin-town is a bit closer to Lonely Mountain, about 300 miles, but one would have to travel farther to get around Mirkwood (even assuming that Orcs would have access to secret paths through the Narrows of the Forest). The distance between Moria and Erebor is more like 450 miles; however, Moria is nearer to the Narrows of Mirkwood, 200 miles straight west across the Valelands. The biggest complication might be where tthe Moria Orcs would cross the Anduin River; it would increase their distance and travel time if they first have to move north to the Old Ford.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


Aug 19 2013, 3:33pm

Post #9 of 10 (85 views)
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What is interesting about Mt. Gundabad is that it is basically the original [In reply to] Can't Post

Holy Mountain for the Dwarves. It is where Durin the Deathless awoke. However, Khazad Dum became the center of Dwarven kingdoms.

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Gundabad


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Aug 19 2013, 3:39pm

Post #10 of 10 (89 views)
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Scale? [In reply to] Can't Post

The scale on your map of Wilderland seems badly out-of-whack to me. Distances seem to be more than double of what they ought to be. I have a feeling that this was done intentionally to bring the distances more in line with the travel times given by Tolkien.

I've been using Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth for most of my distances. Fonstad's scales match much better with Tolkien's map of Middle-earth in my copy of The Fellowship of the Ring.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Aug 19 2013, 3:48pm)

 
 

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