Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion discussion: Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 13 2013, 10:57pm

Post #1 of 100 (746 views)
Shortcut
Silmarillion discussion: Of the Voyage of Earendil and the War of Wrath Can't Post

Welcome to the final chapter in the Quenta Silmarillion! This chapter is pretty short, but it covers a lot of ground. Does it feel like a satisfactory conclusion or an anticlimactic letdown?

I've split this discussion into two parts: 1) the voyages of Earendil & 2) the War of Wrath. I'm going to keep this all in the same thread, but I'll split it into two main subthreads for ease of conversation. Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 13 2013, 11:00pm

Post #2 of 100 (483 views)
Shortcut
Of the Voyage of Earendil [In reply to] Can't Post

We've come now to the end of the First Age. Nargothrond, Doriath, and Gondolin now lie destroyed, and all of our main characters are now but a small people living by the Sea. The remnant of Doriath and the exiles of Gondolin have joined up, and the two most popular players from each team have formed an alliance. Do you like that Earendil and Elwing got married or does it seem too neat and tidy?

The Silmaril is in possession of Elwing at this time, and "it seemed to them that in the Silmaril lay the healing and the blessing that had come upon their houses and their ships." Do you think that this really was due to the Silmaril? It would recall the similar effect on the land of Ossiriand while Luthien wore it. An alternative is suggested in Unfinished Tales - that it was in fact the Elessar that brought healing on the land. There it is said that the Elessar was made in Gondolin and had the power to heal things again "as they were in the grace of their youth...And indeed at Sirion's Haven there were many hurts to heal both of Men and Elves...and while Earendil dwelt there they were healed and prospered, and all things were for a while green and fair." Of course, the Elessar is nowhere mentioned in The Silmarilion, but since the healing isn't expressly stated to be from the Silmaril, it's an interesting alternative. Or perhaps they worked in tandem.

Earendil is out and about on one of his voyages when the Sons of Feanor decide it's another good time to start killing people. This third kinslaying is said to be cruelest. What makes it so? Is it because they should have learned from the other two kinslayings? Maedhros and Maglor don't gain the jewel because Elwing casts herself into the sea with it. Was this a suicide jump or an escape plan? I've always had the impression it was the former, but there's nothing else in her character or story to indicate this. Hurin's ending, I think, is the reason for my thoughts, because the wording is eerily similar: "But it is said that Hurin would not live thereafter...and cast himself at last into the western sea; and so ended the mightiest of the warriors of mortal Men."

Ulmo once again intervenes in the story by lifting Elwing out of the waters and transforming her into a bird. This is one of my favorite images in the book - of Elwing speeding her way toward Earendil's ship. When she gets there, she tells Earendil of what happened at the havens and of their sons' captivity. Why didn't they try to find them? In a note published in The Peoples of Middle-earth, it's mentioned that Elrond and Elros had mother-names only (meaning Earendil never got around to naming them himself), "for Earendil was nearly always at sea in many fruitless voyages, and both his sons were born in his absence." What do you think of this? He doesn't seem to be a very good father.

Earendil comes to Valinor at another time of feasting. At least this time there were some who kept watch. He's taken before the Valar and there "delivered the errand of the Two Kindreds." Why doesn't Elwing come with him? She's just as qualified to be ambassador of both kindreds, isn't she? Or is it because he's specifically half-Noldorin not just half-elven? This brings me to one of my absolute favorite passages from HoME. It's from The Peoples of Middle-earth:

Quote
It is said that before Manwe he spoke the errand of Elves and Men first in Sindarin, since that might represent all those of the suppliants who had survived the war with Morgoth; but he repeated it in Quenya, since that was the language of the Noldor, who alone were under the ban of the Valar; and he added a prayer in the Mannish tongues of Hador and Beor, pleading that they were not under the ban, and had aided the Eldar only in their war against Morgoth, the enemy of the Valar. For the Atani had not rebelled against the Valar; they had rejected Morgoth and fled Westward seeking the Valar as the representatives of the One. This plea Manwe accepted.


We then come to the issue of Earendil, Elwing, Elrond, and Elros's fates. This issue has always seemed strange to me. Why didn't Dior get some kind of choice? I know he died early, but we never got any indication that he had a choice. Likewise, once Elros chooses the fate of Men, his descendants don't have a choice, so why do Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen have one after Elrond chose immortality? Earendil is said to have wished to be with the kindred of Men and the people of his father, but this seems odd to me. He's been searching for Tuor and Idril on his voyages, and Tuor is said to have been added to the Noldor, so I would think he'd be eager to join them.

The last bit for this part is the hallowing of Vingilot and the Raising of the Star. Earendil and his ship are placed in the skies, adding a new dimension to his voyages. While he voyages above the earth, Elwing stays and a tower is built for her. The birds would go there to rest, and she befriends them. So she learns the tongue of the birds, and they taught her how to fly, and she was given wings somehow or other. Does she turn back into a bird or is she a mixture of bird and human? After all shift from the fantastical to the more human nature of the last chapters of the book, is this return to the fantastical jarring to you or appreciated?

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 13 2013, 11:01pm

Post #3 of 100 (481 views)
Shortcut
and the War of Wrath [In reply to] Can't Post

The War of Wrath is the conclusion to the entire Quenta Silmarillion and the First Age. Coming to it, we find that Earendil's plea has been heard and the Valar prepare an attack against Morgoth. He's said to have been filled with doubt at the rising of Earendil, but he still did not expect the assault from the West. This brings up one of the more interesting aspects of this chapter. Who comprised the Host of the Valar? None of the Valar are expressly said to have been involved in the attack. Eonwe is the leader, but as the herald of Manwe, it's conceivable that some of the lesser Valar came with but under the authority of Eonwe as the spokesman for Manwe. It is known that some Maiar went, as did the Vanyar and the Noldor under Finarfin. The Teleri lend their ships and mariners, but don't set foot upon Middle-earth because of the wrongs done to them by the rebelling Noldor.

Morgoth's last weapon was the release of the winged dragons. Earendil's fight with Ancalagon is another great image from this chapter. When he finally kills Ancalagon, and when he falls to the earth, he crushes the three peaks of Thangorodrim. Morgoth isn't man enough to accept his fate, so when he's found, he's at the very bottom of Angband. Poetic justice definitely comes into play here when he's bound again with the same chain as he had been before. He's finally chucked through the Door of Night and out into the Void.

During the war, Beleriand gets flooded. Where does the rest of the story take place?

Maedhros and Maglor prepare one last attack. Maglor actually seems to have learned from his past mistakes and tries to talk Maedhros out of it. But Maedhros won't relent, so they make a plan to get the two remaining Silmarils from Eonwe. They do succeed, but because of their prior sins, their claim to the Silmarils is void and they burn the brothers as they had to Morgoth. This is a pretty striking feature. What do you think of this? And what do you think of their fates: one in the earth and one in the sea? What happens to Maglor? Is he still wandering around the seashore during the Third Age? Is he ever allowed to take a ship to Valinor?

That's it for this chapter and the First Age. Lots going on here. Looking forward to the discussion! Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 10:46am

Post #4 of 100 (464 views)
Shortcut
The silmarils as a blessing, and as a passport to Valinor [In reply to] Can't Post

That struck me as odd too - apart from their potential to "reboot" the Trees, I don't think they've previously been mentioned as having any benign magical properties at all. So, as usual, we can read it different ways, including:
  1. That they do genuinely have this property (but maybe need to be in the right hands to show it)
  2. That they are merely a good-luck token/talisman (not actively doing anything). To the second explanation one might add a bit of self-justification and rationalization: maybe their owners are falling under the usual problem of covetousness, and are convincing themselves (or offering as an excuse) that the Silmaril brings these benefits. Someone preferring this explanation could say it is reminiscent of Thingol's behaviour - when he offers Luthien's hand in exchange for a Silmaril, is he merely trying to set an impossible task, or is he after the silmaril?

Later we get "the wise have said" that Earendil can get to Valinor only because he has the silmaril on him. (I do like the way Tolkien uses the "some say" trick to reduce the authority of away from these kind of statements). I was wondering about what it would mean if "the wise have said" rightly. Interpretations might be:
  1. The magical defences of Valinor are designed for this - by implication the Noldor can't ask for mercy before they have achieved some things themselves; recapture of a silmaril is in effect the price for divine help;, or;
  2. The magical defences of Valinor are simply not designed to cope with keeping out something as magical as a silmaril. (That woudl give the silmaril another kin dof magical power it has not shown before)


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 10:56am

Post #5 of 100 (440 views)
Shortcut
Earendil's relationships... [In reply to] Can't Post

...are also odd, I agree.

Why does he insist on being the lone ambassador? He seems to feel that this is fated "one only may bring the message that it is my fate to bear?" but is this correct, and how does he know (or what makes him think this)? One possible generous motive is that he feels that the ambassador's job is very risky (the Valar are going to be take revenge on him for daring to land) and he wants to protect his companions. This is the reason Amandil makes later, for attempting a similar mission from Numenor without taking his Elendil & sons.

I also thought it was odd that Earendil, who chooses immortality reluctantly in order to stay with Elwing, then leaves her to mind the Tower while he goes off a-voyaging. They don't want to go together?
The "choice of Earendil" is, however the opposite of the usual one (which is elf-girl gives up immortaility to be with her man). I wonder whether that means anything, or whether it is just how teh story works out.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 10:58am

Post #6 of 100 (434 views)
Shortcut
Ancalagon! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ancalagon is of course a name-check for LOTR readers (Gandalf mentions his as putatively being able to melt a Ring of Power). Trivial point, I know, but I would be interested if anyone knows the answer: was Ancalagon already in the corpus when Tolkien mentioned him in Lord of the Rings, or was he invented for "Shadow of the Past" and then his back-story filled out later.


Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 11:11am

Post #7 of 100 (445 views)
Shortcut
The Oath and its cancellation, and the final fate of the silmarils [In reply to] Can't Post

I noticed that Maedhros and Maglor's debate about whether the Oath can be annulled runs along the lines we have debated ourselves in this read-though (at various points): we've variously felt that the Oath never had any power except the psychological, or that the silly old SoF stirred up genuine supernatural forces that do bind them (and several possibilities in between). We've also discussed Maglor's idea that surely Manwe and Varda could release them from their foolishness.

I warm to Maglor's idea that, even if they are themselves doomed, it would be better to be doomed by renouncing the oath and doing no more harm. Sounds courageous to me.

I did rather want Eonwe to handle it rather better. "Just let them have a little pinky-touch each" I felt. a burned finger each might have persuaded them that it was time to throw in the towel. Or couldn't the Valar have been a bit more proactive in offering them forgiveness? I takes a lot of courage to be forgiven.

When we come to the final fate of the silmarils, I also noticed the "one to air, one to water and one to fire (or earth)" distribution. It matches the 2 elven rings 91 fire, 1 air, 1 water) but I'm stumped as to what the symbolism is, if it is not a mere co-incidence.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 11:16am

Post #8 of 100 (440 views)
Shortcut
During the war, Beleriand gets flooded. Where does the rest of the story take place? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, what about the geography?

Come on telain!

(Aw shucks, I'll have dreadful Dexy's Midnight Runners earworm for the rest of the day now...)

Certainly a lot of people do get away out of Beleriand. Someone (Brethil, I think?) suggested that maybe it didn't sink instantly, so there was time to finish up the story as it went down, and for people to evacuate either east or west.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 11:19am

Post #9 of 100 (439 views)
Shortcut
I vote "climactic letdown" [In reply to] Can't Post

A lot of exciting stuff happens highly summarized, and it leaves us with a lot of questions. Is there a sense in which Tolkien knew about Earendil's voyage (from quite early in his writings, I think?) but left the rest of the chapter in early draft?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 11:23am

Post #10 of 100 (432 views)
Shortcut
dior and the silmaril [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i get the sense that for tolkien, there is only one possible messenger --earendil. the way tolkien hints at it in prior chapters, etc.

however, even if that is tolkien's intent, i think the mechanics of the world he created present another option:

if the silmaril is the passport to valinor (and i get the sense that it is), then dior might also have been a candidate to convey that message.

we've been talking a lot about the roles of fate and choice in tolkien's world, in the previous chapter (fall of gondolin). the idea that some results may be predetermined (someone of both races with a silmaril traveling to valinor as a supplicant), but the variants are not (it could be earendil, it could be elwing, it could be dior).

i'll also note that elwing and earendil had roughly equal parts in this journey. elwing brought the silmaril out of doriath, from bloodshed, a sacked kingdom, on the run. that tale deserved some more elaboration. she also brought it out of the sea (with some divine transformation) and flew, solo, to meet up with earendil's ship.

earendil and elwing are a representative pair -- representing not only elf-kind and human-kind, but male and female.

however, this would have been a more powerful statement had tolkien allowed the both of them to "present."

i think earendil is the solo presenter because of the slight ascendancy that tolkien assigns to males, in general.

re the magical defences of valinor, i think the silmaril and its fate functions with those barriers the way that beren's fate functions with the girdle of melian. it was the appointed time, with the appointed triggers.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 12:21pm

Post #11 of 100 (428 views)
Shortcut
The fated messenger at the fated time [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I think that is how it's meant to work. Which Of course makes awkward customers like me want to know why that combination is right and others wrong.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 14 2013, 2:12pm

Post #12 of 100 (418 views)
Shortcut
I think [In reply to] Can't Post

Which I did mention passingly, that Earendil is the only one possible because he's half Noldorin, and they are the ones under the Cure of Mandos. So neither Dior nor Elwing could have made supplication to the Valar on behalf of the exiles, though I do think that Elwing could have gone with Earendil to Valimar seeing how she is also representative of the two kindreds.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 14 2013, 2:18pm

Post #13 of 100 (422 views)
Shortcut
I have to agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I think that these final three chapters (Doriath, Gondolin, & Earendil) are all anticlimactic. I read them a few days ago for the first time in years, and I was somewhat shocked by how abbreviated they are. I love the stories (and they seem so vast and wonderful when reading HoME), but these super short chapters leave a lot to be desired. In the case of this chapter, there really isn't a lot of writings to be used, but the other two chapters have a lot of material to pull from, and it should have been pulled from to create fuller narratives.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Aug 14 2013, 2:26pm

Post #14 of 100 (414 views)
Shortcut
Did Earendil have a choice? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't remember him having a choice in whether or not Vingilot was hallowed and put in the heavens. I think that was all the Valar, and he had no say in the matter. And then Elwing decided she didn't want to go with him, so this time it seems to be her fault for their separation.

Don't forget Tuor. It's said that he is counted among the Noldor. So really it's a split. Tuor and Earendil get immortality while Luthien and Arwen get mortality.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 2:32pm

Post #15 of 100 (428 views)
Shortcut
That makes sense - though on another level it doesn't [In reply to] Can't Post

I expect you're right; it's important that the emissary is (part) Noldor.

We also do need Elwing to stay at the harbour a while & persuade her fellow Teleri, to lend ships for the invasion of Middle-earth. She could do both that and be ambassador to the Valar, of course, if the author wished.

At another level, I continue to find the Valar rather questionable! It can't have escaped their notice that Middle-earth is populated by more than Noldor. By this point it is populated by people who never had an opportunity to refuse the Valars hospitality (including dwarves and "men" to whom a stay in Valinor probably can't actually be offered). Do the valar feel no sense of responsibility for these beings at all?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 4:05pm

Post #16 of 100 (554 views)
Shortcut
Maybe it's a neat solution… [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're right- we are just told that this is what they decide to do with Earendil, without much explanation of why. Volunteer or pressed man; the text doesn't say.

Unless I've been "reading with my eyes closed", which does happen sometimes…

It could be seen as a neat solution though: Earendil is weary of the world, but does not want to leave it utterly for Eleing's sake. This way he spends much if his time literally out of this world, but gets shore leave with Elwing. Wink

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 7:22pm

Post #17 of 100 (413 views)
Shortcut
The power of the Silmarils [In reply to] Can't Post

I think this chapter leaves us a bit of room for interpretation.

It is nowhere given, the exact extent of the powers of the Silmarils, and it leaves an open question.

It is said that it "seemed" to be the cause if healing, not was. As we said in the Grima/Lotho thread, Tolkien uses innuendo and legend to drive his stories, leaving some things to imagination. Perhaps the influence here, can be compared to the Ring. Frodo felt a dependence on the Ring. Though it is stated that it does not confer power or courage, but that it gives it in measure to that the bearer has(amplification).

On the other hand you have the observable effect on Tol Galen. Think about it, a man and mortal elf go to an island, and after the Nauglamir arrives, it becomes like "a vision of the greatest beauty....outside.... of Valinor". Also, when enclasped upon his neck, Dior "appeared" to be the fairest. It could be another Tolkien hyperbole,(he likes to use them a lot), but it is stated that Luhien IS the fairest. It had some effect then upon the appearance of Dior.

We could argue either way, but the important fact is that they BELIEVED it to be so. A delusion is just as good a motivator as fact, and it brought then to the same end.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 7:36pm

Post #18 of 100 (408 views)
Shortcut
Dysfunctional relationships [In reply to] Can't Post

There seem to be a lot of weird relationship dynamics in Tolkien. Melian and Thingol, Turin and Nienor/Niniel, Earendil and Elwing, The Mariner and his wife (from UT?), even Galadriel and Celeborn.

I think that the closest parallel to Earendil and Elwing, would be Melian and Thingol. It is not given out, what exactly attracted her to him, but it is said that Melian could see that he had a "high doom" before him. He would be great and achieve feats of strength and valor. Now perhaps she knew that she was wedding a "Hero", if you will, and knew that he would do dangerous things, only she accepted the risk.

Elwing also was marrying a man, who seems to be painted as "fated" from the first. He had two driving desires, to find Tuor and Idril, also to go to Valinor and present their plight to the Valar. Did these come for himself or otherwise? In any case, I hardly think of him as "another guy", he must have been exceptional in one way or another, Elwing choosing to suffer the separation and anxiety inherent with the relationship.

They had love, inexplicable as Thingol and Melian did(Maybe GLadriel and Celeborn could parallel this too?), and the "love conquers all" attitude seems to be a fixture of ME.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 7:49pm

Post #19 of 100 (391 views)
Shortcut
Or, maybe "functional but unconventional"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Not all couples are all inseparable Beren-and-Luthien, come to think of it. One travels, the other doesn't , but they're happy together (and apart)? Not unheard of - perhaps I've been too harsh?

"Dysfunctional" to me suggests someone's getting hurt.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 7:51pm

Post #20 of 100 (407 views)
Shortcut
On fate, with special attention to the actions of Valar. [In reply to] Can't Post

Now we can discuss the fate of men and elves all we like, it all follows some plan, but I would like to add that in these discussions, need to see that the Valar are also bound by the fate of the world, as he elves are.

In this chapter we also have the intervention of the Valar on several levels.

Ulmo has been meddling since the summons of Valar to Valinor. He has helped them to and from Valinor. He has personally aided, Turin, Tuor, Turgon, and now Elwing. It would seem that he could have been much more active in his aid. So why not? In all of our discussion of fate, we have touched upon the Great Fate, the things that MUST happen, being bound by this fate, Ulmo cannot expressly interfere in the fight against Morgoth, as he is yet a part of the Great Fate/Theme. He can nudge and embellish, but he cannot alter(Contrast the Greek gods with relative carte blanche in their freedoms). His aid in this chapter must be part of the Fate of the World, and it must be "meant to be", that the Silmaril escapes the SoF and that Elwing comes to Earendil. Thus the Silmaril lights the way to Valinor.

OK, am I the ONLY one who wonders WHY Earendil did not try to use the Silmaril to light the way to Valinor? Now that he has it, he thinks" Hmmm.. Maybe I should wear this now that we are alone at sea!"

WHAT!!


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 8:07pm

Post #21 of 100 (397 views)
Shortcut
Too true. [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems to be another instance of "True love" winning out. It is the quintessential Eucotastrophe in Tolkien, if we must quantify it.


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Aug 14 2013, 8:27pm

Post #22 of 100 (553 views)
Shortcut
Observation of the War of Wrath [In reply to] Can't Post

Morgoth seems pretty smug in this chapter. He sees the star of Earendil, and his spies bring the news, they've been pretty effective so far, of the hope of the Eldar and men, (perhaps even of Earendil's voyage?), and he sits there? Pretty selfish and dumb, but, it has been postulate elsewhere, that Evil cannot comprehend good so he has a handicap here.

With all the upheaval and lights in he north, associated with the battle, perhaps the people of ME began to flee to the east in fear? This could be part of the reason for their escape from the sinking continent.

It is then stated, that some men marched with Morgoth, and the Elves,"do not forget it". A reason for the doubts of the Elves in the strength of men? Why didn't it turn to feud, as it did with the Elves?

Maedhros, also interests me, it would seem that all the way until now, he has been the voice of reason and level headed. I really thought that he learned something from Fingon and his experiences. Now Maglor seems to be the cool headed, logical one. What happened? I was starting to feel sorry for him. Then they have their own circumstantial interpretation of fate. Replacing the cool council in the precious section. What?? It all seems a bit psychotic.

Yes, it is a bit anticlimactic. I would have liked a lot more to be fleshed out. It really had the making of an epic tale, that we only have the outlines to.


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

Aug 14 2013, 10:57pm

Post #23 of 100 (364 views)
Shortcut
The unforgiving Teleri [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing I do notice reading that is that the Teleri still bear a grudge over all these centuries against the sons of Feanor. Though I suppose that centuries pass quite quickly if one is an Elf! Yet whilst some are impressed by the heroic nature of the Noldor's struggles against Morgoth, many clearly still feel resentfull against them for the slaughter of their people and so do not help them all the way against Morgoth. And they have never met any mortals one supposes apart from Earendil and don't have sympathies towards them!


Brethil
Half-elven


Aug 14 2013, 11:41pm

Post #24 of 100 (352 views)
Shortcut
Wish it was more detailed! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the cardinal points of the story are satisfying, but wish it was fleshed out more. So while not anticlimactic, it feels very bare. It would be great to have a proportionally expanded upon tale, like CoH, for this critical part of the history.

Ok, setting off to your other wonderful talking points...!

Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply, and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!








Riven Delve
Grey Havens


Aug 14 2013, 11:49pm

Post #25 of 100 (353 views)
Shortcut
I don't know much about the source material... [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this chapter something that was never "finished" by Tolkien, but rather compiled from his notes by Christopher Tolkien/Guy Kay? (I put "finished" in quotes, because I know our professor loved to go back and tinker...)

I kind of hope so, because I find the chapter pretty unsatisfactory in terms of storytelling. Unsure I would have been mightily tempted, as a compiler/editor, to embellish... Angelic

"It was just a sword, beautiful in the way of a weapon, with the jewels in the hilt set in gold scrollwork, and the blade glimmering and eager, as if it would fight of itself. Weapons are named for this; some are eager fighters, some dogged, some unwilling; but all are alive."--The Hollow Hills


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.